Chicago & Milwaukee discussion

[lawfin]

Originally Posted by rgolch

The main issue is that downtown Milwaukee is just not a major destination for the Milwaukee metro area. I took me a bit to get used to that, having grown up in Chicago.

I will say that the restaurants in Downtown MKE and the east side are much, much better than restaurants in the west, south, and far north suburbs. And the art museum, Aterra by the lake, and now even Bradford beach are interesting, in and of themselves. But you don't have young, vibrant Wisconsinites pining to live "in the city." I find it incredibly disappointing that you have twenty-somethings who think living in Tosa, or Franklin is preferable to living in the city. And I know I'll get someone wanting to respond to me by saying "well, what about the 3rd ward?" And my response is that, the Third Ward is just not a big deal. First, it's small. And second, there really not that much there. I'd like to see something more akin to a small version of Lincoln Park, or Lakeview; the Third Ward is nothing of the sort.

And finally, the shopping. Well TUP.... Milwaukee is NOT a shopping mentality area. I really don't know why; maybe it's German sensibility and frugality. Maybe it's the proximity to Chicago. I'm not sure. I have always found it interesting when I've met wealthy, attractive women, and have discovered that they have never heard of Ferragamo, Christian Louboutin, etc. Maybe that's a good thing. But it does sort of add to a blandness to the whole area.

I have to concur with this. I have cousins up there who range in age from late teens to around 40 and none of them; not a one desires to live in Milwaukee....they live in some shit hole bland burg west of Milw....horrible place. I always get a hotel downtown when I visit; they wonder why out loud.

Even the one cousin who moved down this direction set up shop in Niles.....NILES!.....pretty much the worst suburb on the north end of the city. She drive everywhere and when I've asked her to come on into the city she says no since there is no parking.

My wife's family is entirley from Wisc. and they to live in suburban Milw....her cousins range in age from 22-32 and to a man and woman live the vinyl sided 3car garage subdivision lifestyle. When we visit them we get a hotel downtown usually the hilton and have to take a cab out to their house....they get perplexed why we don't stay at the local motel 6....arghhh!

Both sides took a long time to understand that yes we live in Chicago....the city of Chicago....not a suburb of Chicago...they just didn't get it. The one's who have actually come down to our house are astonished that where we live is actually Chicago because it's generally pretty nice.

rant over

[rgolch]

^^^ And I think it's too bad, because my bet is that it hasn't always been that way. I bet Milwaukee used to be a really vibrant city. It has a pretty compact footprint in the downtown area, so I think it has potential. And you don't have to have a huge population to have a vibrant city (ie Seattle and Vancouver). But people have to have a different mentality altogether.

[the urban politician]

^ But that's just it, a sizable number of people do live in Milwaukee. On the north lakefront there are miles and miles of homes, highrises, multiunit buildings.

Milwaukee really does offer the urban lifestyle, albeit in a kind of boutique, relaxed sort of way. I'm not saying that it needs a Barney's or a Prada store, or oodles of Michelin rated restaurants.

But much of the city, as beautiful as it is, still leaves much to be desired in the "things to do other than drink at a pub and walk along the lakeside" front. I see no reason why, with there being plenty of disposable income, a developer doesn't come in and try to create an urban retail district with a combination of big chain stores mixed in with smaller local retailers, something similar to Chicago's Roosevelt collection (except that it should be better connected with the street grid), with garage parking.

[rgolch]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ But that's just it, a sizable number of people do live in Milwaukee. On the north lakefront there are miles and miles of homes, highrises, multiunit buildings.

Milwaukee really does offer the urban lifestyle, albeit in a kind of boutique, relaxed sort of way. I'm not saying that it needs a Barney's or a Prada store, or oodles of Michelin rated restaurants.

But much of the city, as beautiful as it is, still leaves much to be desired in the "things to do other than drink at a pub and walk along the lakeside" front. I see no reason why, with there being plenty of disposable income, a developer doesn't come in and try to create an urban retail district with a combination of big chain stores mixed in with smaller local retailers, something similar to Chicago's Roosevelt collection (except that it should be better connected with the street grid), with garage parking.

This is very well said, and I can't figure it out for the life of me. For whatever reason, people cling to a very traditional, conventional lifestyle around here. Most of the good suburban restaurants are still primarily great steakhouses. It blew my mind when me and a few of my coworkers tried to get a bunch of people together to get some tapas at La Merenda (a great restaurant, btw). When I told them where we were going, hardly any of them had ever heard of tapas. That really surprised me, since I had been going to tapas restaurants since the late 80's. I do think it's gotten worlds better since I got here in the late 90's, but it's got a very long way to go. That's why I eventually had to buy a condo downtown Chicago as a second home; I do have a lot of affection for Milwaukee, and love my job and the people I work with. But it doesn't even come close to satisfying my need to live a cosmopolitan lifestyle.

[Baronvonellis]

^^I think you just answered your own question. The people in Milwaukee that care or want a cosmopolitan lifestyle probably just move to Chicago or go there on weekends at least. Chicago is simply too close to Milwaukee and a big culture drain on Milwaukee. Most Milwaukee people that want that stuff are going to shop in Chicago, and that just leaves the people that don't care about all that stuff left. It's a double edged sword since Milwaukee benefits from it's proximity to Chicago but at the same time it might be better off it was located where Green Bay is, so it wasn't directly in Chicago's sphere of influence.

[the urban politician]

^ Plus there is this anti-Chicago resentment that lingers among some. It seems that the people who want a cosmopolitan lifestyle already moved to Chicago, and the people who stayed behind...well...many don't have the fondest feelings for it.

Check out this awesome example:

One of my coworkers is your typical Wisconsonite--loves the Packers and Badgers, grew up here, and loves to eat. He's also bright and highly educated, and makes good money so he can afford to eat at a good restaurant. But he also has the same attitude to Illinois (ie FIB).

A few years ago his wife, for his birthday, flew him to New York to eat at a really nice restaurant. They ate, spent, ONE night, and then flew back.

Huh?

It's one thing to go to New York to visit New York. But are you telling me that you flew him to New York to eat at one restaurant, and then flew right back? HELLO? Ever heard of the big city 90 miles due south of you, brimming with amazing, world-class dining? You could have had the same experience, minus the plane ticket and minus being groped by the TSA. What was the point of all of that?

It boggles my mind.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by rgolch

This is very well said, and I can't figure it out for the life of me. For whatever reason, people cling to a very traditional, conventional lifestyle around here. Most of the good suburban restaurants are still primarily great steakhouses. It blew my mind when me and a few of my coworkers tried to get a bunch of people together to get some tapas at La Merenda (a great restaurant, btw). When I told them where we were going, hardly any of them had ever heard of tapas. That really surprised me, since I had been going to tapas restaurants since the late 80's. I do think it's gotten worlds better since I got here in the late 90's, but it's got a very long way to go. That's why I eventually had to buy a condo downtown Chicago as a second home; I do have a lot of affection for Milwaukee, and love my job and the people I work with. But it doesn't even come close to satisfying my need to live a cosmopolitan lifestyle.

Slowly but surely, Milwaukee will catch on.

Cities change, and I think Milwaukee will evolve into its own. What's holding Milwaukee back is the State in which it's in. Wisconsin blows.

[Centropolis]

I work with our Milwaukee office a lot and I never hear the end of FIBs this and FIBs that, I actually had never heard that before working with that office. I'm sure that one issue with Milwaukee is that it's so close to Chicago that there is a sucking sound towards Chicago (which isn't any different than St. Louis), but at the same time it's so conveniently close to Chicago's amenities that I can see that become reversed someday with Milwaukee not even lifting a finger. 90 miles apart? That's insanely close. Plus Milwaukee doesn't feel or look nearly as rust belt as the stereotype, and seemingly has its shit together better than many other manufacturing-type cities.

[rgolch]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ Plus there is this anti-Chicago resentment that lingers among some. It seems that the people who want a cosmopolitan lifestyle already moved to Chicago, and the people who stayed behind...well...many don't have the fondest feelings for it.

Check out this awesome example:

One of my coworkers is your typical Wisconsonite--loves the Packers and Badgers, grew up here, and loves to eat. He's also bright and highly educated, and makes good money so he can afford to eat at a good restaurant. But he also has the same attitude to Illinois (ie FIB).

A few years ago his wife, for his birthday, flew him to New York to eat at a really nice restaurant. They ate, spent, ONE night, and then flew back.

Huh?

It's one thing to go to New York to visit New York. But are you telling me that you flew him to New York to eat at one restaurant, and then flew right back? HELLO? Ever heard of the big city 90 miles due south of you, brimming with amazing, world-class dining? You could have had the same experience, minus the plane ticket and minus being groped by the TSA. What was the point of all of that?

It boggles my mind.

Well, there is something novel about flying to NYC for one meal. It sort of gives you bragging rights to say you did it, P-Diddy style. If he is a foodie, and doesn't want to utilize Chicago, then that's his loss. I've found that trying to talk up Chicago to Wisconsinites does more harm than good. You have to put yourself in their shoes. Imagine if you live and work in Chicago, and you got some born and raised loud mouth New Yorker constantly talking up New York, and implying that Chicago doesn't stack up. It'd get kind of annoying after a while. Even if you didn't buy everything he was saying.

As far as the FIB thing, I gotta say that I don't heard that reference that much anymore. It's definitely more common amongst blue collar types. When I hear it amongst people I know, it takes on a more playful tone, so it comes off as funny. And a lot of the people I know do utilize Chicago for it's amenities. I frequently get friends calling me, asking me where they should eat, and what they should do when they're down there for a weekend. A lot of friends and coworkers are genuinely curious about the place I bought down in Chicago, and want to know how often I use it (and have implied maybe trading weeks for their place in Florida).

I think a lot of people around here have mixed feelings about Chicago. They like going down there on occasion; a ton of people used to love taking a weekend to see Wicked, and grabbing a deep dish pizza and Garrett's popcorn. But you can't underestimate the undercurrent of dislike that they have for Illinois. A lot of it is Packer-Bears, Brewers-Cubs related. Wisconsin sports teams play a much bigger role in civic identity here. And some of it is resentment because of a belief that Chicagoans don't respect Wisconsin.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by rgolch

You have to put yourself in their shoes. Imagine if you live and work in Chicago, and you got some born and raised loud mouth New Yorker constantly talking up New York, and implying that Chicago doesn't stack up. It'd get kind of annoying after a while.

And some of it is resentment because of a belief that Chicagoans don't respect Wisconsin.

these two statements really go together. i do indeed know chicagoans who have that obnoxious "i'm from chicago, how could anything in wisconsin impress me?" holier than thou attitude. and with the way that chicagoans invade wisconsin en masse every summer, there's no doubt a lot of path-crossing between those types of FIBs and the local cheeseheads. were i a native wisconsinite, i would just as easily resent the dismissive chicagoan just as much as i, a native chicagoan, resent the dismissive new yorker.

i'm glad that i'm not one of those asshole FIBs. i LOVE wiscosnisn and i SUPER-LOVE milwaukee!

Originally Posted by rgolch

As far as the FIB thing, I gotta say that I don't heard that reference that much anymore. It's definitely more common amongst blue collar types. When I hear it amongst people I know, it takes on a more playful tone, so it comes off as funny.

that's been my experience for the most part as well. it's more friendly teasing than it is something to be taken seriously.

[rgolch]

So I know I'm probably exceeding my healthy number of posts in one thread, but this is a topic that's a bit personal to me.

If some of you do want to dive deeper into concepts and thoughts of a closer Chicago-Milwaukee relationship, the local NPR up here in WI ran a series dealing with this topic on their local program called Lake Effect (station=WUWM). My bet is that you might be able to find a podcast. There has also been a spattering of articles on occasion within Milwaukee magazine dealing with this topic. As per usual, you got some advocating for a closer relationship. Then you have douchebags like Walker who think that any minute IL companies will start coming to WI in droves.

[Nowhereman1280]

As a Wisconsin born and raised (born in Green Bay, grew up 30-45 min north of Milwaukee) translplant (immigrant?) to Chicago, I can probably shed a little light on the FIB think. It's not anything like the NYC-Chicago resentment as has been suggested above.

The FIB thing is deep seeded resentment that has developed as a result of the disrespectful behavior of Illinois natives while in our state. This is most obviously demonstrated by the fact that practically everyone in Wisconsin drives 5-7 MPH over the speed limit and gets pissed when some douchebag from Illinois in a BMW is riding their tail because they are in the left lane and only passing prople going 3 or 4 mph slower than them instead of going 90 MPH in a 65 MPH zone.

There is also a perception that people from Illinois come to our state for the weekend and make a mess (litter, get drunk, piss on everything, impregnant our women, whatever) because they are just going home in a day or two anyhow.

A lot of it also comes from the fact that, as we build more and more freeways into the state's hinterlands, the FIB's pour in and scoop up all the lakefront properties that used to be exclusively the territory of Wisconsin families because it used to take 8 hours to get there from Chicago and now only takes 4 hours. Property values on Wisconsin lakes and rivers have soared south of an East-West line starting at Green Bay and crossing the state. I'm convinced this is because almost all the freeways end at approximately that line. This is something we've brought upon ourselves and, I suppose, also something that is necessary for the state's progress. Shocking as it is, there was no 4 lane freeways between Milwaukee and Green Bay or Appleton when I was a kid. I remember them building US-41 and compeleting I-43. They just recently completed the first 4-lane route from Green Bay to Minneapolis (US-10) a few years ago.

But Wisconsinites in general view people from Illinois as disrespectful of our state, resources, and way of life. It's not like Chicago-NYC where Chicago is tired of being considered second best, Wisconsinites have absolutely zero desire to be anything like Chicago at all and take pride in being a slower paced place to live where your hobbies include things like fishing, watching the Packers, and drinking beer. There is no desire to have a taller building or a fancier Art Museum (though Milwaukee did knock that one out of the park), there is only a desire to be left alone by that obnoxious dick who just blew by you in an Illinois plated Escalade pulling a $300k cigarette boat who is going to drive that boat through every slow-no-wake zone pulling a 3 foot wake and trashing all the shorelines we've poured millions into preserving and restoring.

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Slowly but surely, Milwaukee will catch on.

Cities change, and I think Milwaukee will evolve into its own. What's holding Milwaukee back is the State in which it's in. Wisconsin blows.

You blow, Wisconsin is awesome, it's not our fault you chose to move to the worst part of the state! Wisconsin gets progressively shittier the closer you get to Chicago because all the real Wisconsinites move as far away from Chicago as they can so you get a bunch of sell outs who half ass the Wisconsin lifestyle massing close to the border.

[Steely Dan]

^ silly cheeseheads can't have chicago money without the chicago people that bring it up to them. wisconsin is chicago's largest state park, you'd think the cheeseheads would have resigned themselves to that reality by now.

[Baronvonellis]

Sheez, You'd think Wisconsin invented beer and cheese the way they talk about it so much. Everyone else on the planet also drinks beer and eats cheese but we don't brag about it to everyone.

[Centropolis]

As a St Louisan I am feeling a kind of schadenfreude watching this...discussion.

[Nowhereman1280]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ silly cheeseheads can't have chicago money without the chicago people that bring it up to them. wisconsin is chicago's largest state park, you'd think the cheeseheads would have resigned themselves to that reality by now.

Lol, why do you think we put up with your shit? We would have walled off the boarder long ago if you didn't make it rain when you go up there for vacation!

Originally Posted by Baronvonellis

Sheez, You'd think Wisconsin invented beer and cheese the way they talk about it so much. Everyone else on the planet also drinks beer and eats cheese but we don't brag about it to everyone.

You've obviously never been to Wisconsin. They talk about it a lot because it's one of the focuses of life in Wisconsin. Almost everything we eat has cheese in it and the amount of bars in the state is unbelievable. A typical Wisconsin small town has 1 grocery store, a couple gas stations, two dozen houses, a church and about half a dozen bars. Brandy and Beer are just about the only popular types of alcohol in the state.

God I love cheese. It is my favorite food and one of my favorite substances. My friends all make fun of me for the amount of it I eat because they are all from Illinois or elsewhere and don't get it. I'll literally slice the cheese and just eat it straight when my friends are sitting there tainting it's deliciousness by putting it on crackers...

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280

Wisconsin gets progressively shittier the closer you get to Chicago.

that's odd, milwaukee is FAR & AWAY the most livable place in the entire state of wisconsin in my opinion and it's pretty damn close to chicago relative to the rest of the state. i'm mean, you might have a 6 foot erection for a place like eau claire, but it doesn't do a whole lot for me.

Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280

Lol, why do you think we put up with your shit? We would have walled off the boarder long ago if you didn't make it rain when you go up there for vacation!

walled off the border? then we would have simply invaded via lake michigan. you can't wall off a great lake.

no matter what those silly cheeseheads might have desired, there's no way they're gonna keep chicagoans from taking advantage of our largest state park.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280

You blow, Wisconsin is awesome, it's not our fault you chose to move to the worst part of the state! Wisconsin gets progressively shittier the closer you get to Chicago because all the real Wisconsinites move as far away from Chicago as they can so you get a bunch of sell outs who half ass the Wisconsin lifestyle massing close to the border.

^ Just to clarify earlier statement about Wisconsin "blowing", I'm not saying that it's not a very nice state in which to spend one's time. I have yet to venture very far north (been to Green Bay once years ago) or west of Madison.

I'm sure there are some great state parks, great water activities, and I've heard from my parents that Door County is beautiful. I'm sure that is just the tip of the iceberg.

For me, though, I am still a bit fumed at Wisconsinites for getting on the whole Tea Party bandwagon and electing that douche-bag Walker for a Governor, who then threw away this State's first (and perhaps only) chance to get a passenger rail system to connect it's two largest cities, hence connecting its capital city to Chicago.

That chance probably won't be back again in a generation, if even in my life time.

In time I'll get over it and I'll certainly become more familiar with what Wisconsin has to offer, albeit with a less tainted opinion. Problem is, I'll be moving to Illinois in the next year or two anyhow.

[sukwoo]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

In time I'll get over it and I'll certainly become more familiar with what Wisconsin has to offer, albeit with a less tainted opinion. Problem is, I'll be moving to Illinois in the next year or two anyhow.

New job or just new house?

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by sukwoo

New job or just new house?

^ For the forseeable future, same job.

I'll just have to commute.

My wife and I mutually would rather live in the north burbs of Chicago than to continue living in Racine even if that means we will have to drive more.

To save on gas, however, my wife and I (we both work in the same facility) are considering commuting together in one car every day.