Canada: kind of bland, lacking identity and a passive country.

[jeremy_haak]

Bilingual keyboards seem pretty ubiquitous to me in the last five years or so.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dado

Basically every country in Europe has its own keyboard layout and that's the layout you find for sale in those countries. We actually do have a couple of Canadian keyboard layouts defined, but you basically can't buy them. Oddly enough, the French Canadian keyboard is in some respects more similar to the US keyboard (it has the É and the French quote characters) than is the Canadian Multilingual keyboard, which is peppered with virtually every accented character used in French rather than relying on dead keys.

Another thing about the French Canadian keyboard is that it has the QWERTY (similar to the US) disposition of letters whereas the keyboard in francophone Europe and elsewhere uses what is known as the AZERTY disposition of letters.

What it all means is if you type without looking at your fingers many letters aren't in the same place.

[SignalHillHiker]

(I have deja vu... if I've already shared this video, sorry!)

A sample of spoken/sung Newfoundland French from the Port-au-Port Peninsula.

According to Wikipedia: "Newfoundland French or Newfoundland Peninsular French refers to the French spoken on the Port au Port Peninsula (part of the so-called “French Shore”) of Newfoundland. The francophones of the region are unique in Canada, tracing their origins to Continental French fishermen who settled in the late 1800s and early 1900s."

The late Emile Benoit is a LEGEND in Newfoundland. And, since the use of Newfoundland French as a mother tongue has disappeared, he will probably be the last great Newfoundland French artist.

• Video Link

And one more, just to sing his praises. This is his most famous song among English Newfoundlanders, "my gift to them". Some, sadly, will know the name Emile Benoit but won't be able to tell you a song of his. But play this, and they'll all know it...

• Video Link

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

The late Emile Benoit is a LEGEND in Newfoundland. And, since the use of Newfoundland French as a mother tongue has disappeared, he will probably be the last great Newfoundland French artist.

I knew it was fading fast, but has French really completely disappeared?

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I knew it was fading fast, but has French really completely disappeared?

Oh no, not at all. I'm sure a majority of residents of the French Shore can speak it and immersion programs for English Newfoundlanders are incredibly popular. Also, we have St-Pierre-et-Miquelon on our doorstep and, as much as ANY contemporary immigration to Newfoundland is significant, immigration from French-speaking countries is way up there.

There's one French family featured in this (Skip to 7:00 and it comes right after):

• Video Link

EDIT: Forgot to add my point from the original post. It is REALLY disappearing as a mother tongue. I bet you can count on one hand the number of Newfoundland French people alive today who didn't learn English first.

[SignalHillHiker]

And, one more... U.K. doesn't beat us... thing...

Sure, the United Kingdom is close to France, but it's also close to Canada.

St-Pierre-et-Miquelon is visible from the coast of Newfoundland (you can even make out individual buildings) and it's only a short ferry ride to go there:

• Video Link

We used to be able, as Newfoundlanders, to go without a passport. Since 9/11, bring one. Other Canadians, also, bring your passport. But St-Pierre is FANTASTIC!

Growing up, we used to go on some weekends because the drinking age was, at that time, 14 years old. Cigarettes were 50c a pack, a flask was $2. It was paradise for Newfoundland teenagers.

And St-Pierre has AWESOME bars. Only a couple of them, but they were quite good!

EDIT: BTW, it still makes me sad what happened to the French in Newfoundland after the English won the Battle of Signal Hill in St. John's 250 years ago. It was basically ethnic cleansing. A lot of place names along the south coast of Newfoundland are from that time, and in French. For example, Baie de Mortier, Isle aux Morts, etc. Of the whole of North America, St-Pierre-et-Miquelon were ALL France kept.

EDIT 2: I almost forgot... St-Pierre-et-Miquelon prides itself on being "truly French", by which they mean not Quebecois. My FAVOURITE comment I ever read was on a blog post about St-Pierre. A woman, presumably from QC, wrote: "I am not accustomed to leaving what is objectively the finest French city in North America and being treated as riff-raff by... villagers." But, it makes me happy because they do that to us too. The average person in St-Pierre looks... a good 15 years younger than their equivalent in Newfoundland. They have taken the scraps the English left to them and turned it into something better than the English made. That's impressive, and spiteful, and proud, and... everything I admire as a Newfoundlander.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by jd3189

Nice that you love your nation's flag's design but did you really have to insult the Stars and Stripes?

yes, its objectively horrible from a graphic design standpoint. though certainly people are attached to it, nothing wrong with that.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by The_Architect

Aha, yupp! I hear you there. Took me a while to get the hang of it (why the fuck is the " symbol above the 2?).

Because it has little to do with it being British, contrary to what some here may try to claim. It's an historical artifact.

The quotation marks were above the 2 on the most popular US computer ever produced (the Commodore 64). In fact, ALL early home computers in the US had this weirdness - Commodore pre-Amiga, the original Apple II, the TRS-80... all of them with " above 2. This stemmed from (at least) the original Commodore PET keyboard where " was its own key, but was located directly above W - keyboard rows weren't always horizontally offset like they are today. When they added a numeric row on top the modifiers that used to be there carried over.

Anyway, the so-called "British" keyboard owes as much to US keyboards as anyone else's. They modified it to allow for the pound symbol, sure (and in some cases the Euro, but not always) - which Canada does not use in regular practice. So basically, we did exactly what the Brits did. Except that having the same currency symbol as the US, we had no need to modify ours.

And oddly enough, what some people consider a "bilingual" or "Canadian French" keyboard is quite often actually formally known as a "US International" keyboard. I remember the first time I saw a "French" model laptop at Best Buy, chuckling at how it contained characters that don't exist in the French language (I believe the Norse characters were what clued me in). I think they're getting better in having a truly "Canadian French" keyboard on some models, but that's extremely recent.

We use the "US keyboard" (more properly called the "English North American keyboard") because we ALL started with similar keyboards, and we happen to share the same language and currency symbol. Not because we're somehow kow-towing to the Yanks.

...

This all seems a bit like the pinnacle of absurdist arguments: Hitler wore shoes, therefore when you wear shoes it's because you're following Hitler! It's as if co-existence, co-evolution, convenience, practicalities... none of these exist. It MUST be because we blindly follow the US on everything!

Kinda funny given the conversation, but I was working this week at a job site that had Centre in its street address. That may be the first time I've see RE used in the US, but not sure. Maybe we just copied that from the US too, because it does seem to exist here.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by freeweed

And oddly enough, what some people consider a "bilingual" or "Canadian French" keyboard is quite often actually formally known as a "US International" keyboard. I remember the first time I saw a "French" model laptop at Best Buy, chuckling at how it contained characters that don't exist in the French language (I believe the Norse characters were what clued me in). I think they're getting better in having a truly "Canadian French" keyboard on some models, but that's extremely recent.

.

Are you sure about that? I am currently typing on what appears to be a bilingual Canadian keyboard. It has no other ''foreign'' (sic) letters or accents other than the French so obviously it is made for Canada.

At the office I have a Canadian French keyboard that has distinct keys for accented French letters like the É. Plus it has the QWERTY letter positioning (as opposed to the European francophone AZERTY) so it is obviously Canadian. As well, it doesn't have any Spanish, German or Swedish letters or accents.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Kinda funny given the conversation, but I was working this week at a job site that had Centre in its street address. That may be the first time I've see RE used in the US, but not sure. Maybe we just copied that from the US too, because it does seem to exist here.

Probably a faux-chic thing. Like Ye Olde Parke Mews...

[Xelebes]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Are you sure about that? I am currently typing on what appears to be a bilingual Canadian keyboard. It has no other ''foreign'' (sic) letters or accents other than the French so obviously it is made for Canada.

At the office I have a Canadian French keyboard that has distinct keys for accented French letters like the É. Plus it has the QWERTY letter positioning (as opposed to the European francophone AZERTY) so it is obviously Canadian. As well, it doesn't have any Spanish, German or Swedish letters or accents.

As with my bilingual keyboard. You use the bilingual keyboard especially if you want to type with multilingual settings. The multilingual layout opens up the þorn, the eð, the o-nought (ø), the æsc, and the œthel. And the arrows: ←↓→ .

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Probably a faux-chic thing. Like Ye Olde Parke Mews...

yes, that is correct.

personally I like to throw one of those unneeded u's in sometimes, but not like all the time. i say why the fuck not? the english language doesn't make much sense in how it's arranged anyway, especially as we butcher the fuck out of a language destined to be butchered the fuck out of forever.

i guess i could add something like: uhh well we will all be speaking [insert mandarin chinese or spanish or something] anyway so who cares.

[Brandon716]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

Yes, I am a Canadian who lived in Canada all my life, but I been living in the UK for 9 months now and I view my home country differently. I view Canada as a country that does not have a lot of identity in the world and also with its people. I view Canada as pretty bland and uninteresting - in the UK there is a distinct British theme that touches everything from food to dress to media. It's everywhere. There are so many British shops, British shows, British foods, music, etc. Yes, this country has a long history and it is an island, which helps. I'm just wondering when Canada will be proud of itself. What does it mean to be "distinctly Canadian"? Please don't say that it's the fact that we can't be defined. A country has to be able to define itself to the world. When are we going to have shops that are Canadian - fashion clothing, department stores. Marks and Spencer - so British! What store is so Canadian? Aussies have a distint identity and they are a young country, why can't we? What is Canadian food? What do I tell Brits Canadian cuisine is?

If you are thinking I'm crazy, then that answers why we have such an identity problem.

I know numerous people who will say the UK is a stoic society with aversion to change, a place where (native) cuisine sucks, and a place where Europe considers backwash compared to the rest of the West.

Not that I believe it, I love the UK, but just saying that an opinion is an opinion and matters most to only those who feel the same.

What is uniquely Canadian? I think having the world's second largest landmass and successfully - albeit not always peacefully - bringing together English and French culture into a mosaic that has people from all over the world to be enough of a identity as any other.

I'll be traveling to Europe in September, will begin in London and will end in Paris, but hope to travel all over before its done. I love Europe as much as I do Canada, no need to make it a comparison thing.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Are you sure about that? I am currently typing on what appears to be a bilingual Canadian keyboard. It has no other ''foreign'' (sic) letters or accents other than the French so obviously it is made for Canada.

Definitely sure of it. I didn't claim *your* keyboard has it, nor *all* - but it definitely was common enough not too many years ago. Made it really annoying to hand my laptop off to people who need to look at the keys to type.

And the "RE" street.. it's in the middle of an industrial park. Nothing but warehouses and 2 story office buildings. Not sure "faux chic" is what they're going for here, usually that stuff is in residential communities or upscale hipster commercial districts.

They do have km/h on the speed signs near the airports here though, which is kinda cool. I suspect it's for the Mexicans more than us. It's been years (like probably 20) since I've seen metric speed signs in the US.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by freeweed

And the "RE" street.. it's in the middle of an industrial park. Nothing but warehouses and 2 story office buildings. Not sure "faux chic" is what they're going for here, usually that stuff is in residential communities or upscale hipster commercial districts.

I don't know what to say about that other than it's just a weird commercial development thing in the states. I think it's the equivalent of pin stripes on a mini-van, it's to make it fancy. nobody really writes like that, though.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

I don't know what to say about that other than it's just a weird commercial development thing in the states. I think it's the equivalent of pin stripes on a mini-van, it's to make it fancy. nobody really writes like that, though.

Weird. I'll have to keep my eyes open for this in the future - and mercilessly tease the occupants that they work in a "Canadian" development.

[Greavsie]

As an Englishman or British person i have read this fascinating thread and i must say you have everything to be proud of! We are so proud that our ancestors went and developed intially such an amazing country with our french,irish,scots.and welsh cousins!1Furthermore that you have generally such a welcoming warm friendly and open spirit that you have assimilated our italian,polish,chinese,indian,pakistani,iranian and countless other members of our human family! You have created a wonderful country and we LOVE AND APPRECIATE YOUR MAGNIFICENT ACHIEVEMENTS! God bless you and we will always love you!

[Antigonish]

"canada lacks identity"

I highly doubt that. Canada has tremendous culture from coast to coast. If anyone internationally thinks that they've never visited.

[isaidso]

I mentioned this in another thread, but it bears repeating here. Anglo America is our culture, not a foreign one. Anything we've developed, contributed to, or adopted and made our own is Canadian culture. What exists are slight variations in that north American culture from region to region: the US south, Quebec, Maritimes - New England, Cascadia, etc.

To dismiss something as not our own if it also exists in another country is ludicrous. By that definition, Europe is a cultural Siberia. France and Austria are no more immune from partaking in Europe than Canada or the US are in partaking in America. No country lives in a bubble except for North Korea.


Halloween, barbecue, cottage life, suburbia, football, equality, Santa Claus parade, fast food, multiculturalism, Thanksgiving, baseball, burgers, the Charter of Rights, basketball, Homecoming, big houses, tolerance, big cars, skyscrapers, road trips, poutine, the Grey Cup, steaks, etc. This is Canadian culture.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

Bilingual keyboards seem pretty ubiquitous to me in the last five years or so.

I really dislike them, not as a principle but because I'm used to the US-style layout. They're especially annoying on Netbooks, which already have a cramped keyboard to begin with and make it even worse by adding extra multilingual keys.

Originally Posted by Dado

Now imagine for a moment though if we hadn't "switched sides" to do what the Americans do and had instead kept to the left side of the road.

Without recourse to American cars, we would have had to more fully develop our own car industry, since early British cars probably wouldn't be too useful here. Our cars would have developed along a different path than those of the US, giving our cars a distinct appearance. Perhaps we would have the elegant long license plates found in the rest of the world rather than the ugly squat American plates that we have now. At the same time, we would have had little reason to adopt American road signage standards and would more likely have adopted British standards. Now the street environment would look distinct to the US as well. We would have developed more trading relations in cars with other countries with right-hand drive cars, like the other main Commonwealth countries and Japan (the latter a lot sooner than we did).

Choosing to drive on the right is just one of many examples of decisions that Canada has taken to adopt American practices and standards for convenience, not because it was a good idea. But these decisions of convenience all had consequences with respect to our development.

Other examples include adopting the American voltage standard for electricity (so we get wimpy 110v appliances vs the 240v appliances everyone else in the world has), American paper sizes (just what kind of ratio is 8.5:11, anyway?), the American TV transmission standard (so we could watch American programs all the easier!), the American area code system for telephones (we don't even have our own country code!), American keyboards (try finding a Canadian standard keyboard in a store... tough luck if you had to write French words or names).

The sum effect of these countless decisions of convenience is to gradually eliminate any distinctiveness between the two countries and with everything so similar, we end up in many ways being largely American. Canada largely looks and operates like the US in most day-to-day matters. When you cross the border, you don't really feel like you're in a distinctly different country. About the only things the average person might notice is the different money - but hey, even there we adopted their coins, right down to the size, shape, colour and denomination, including the 25¢ rather than a more logical 20¢ piece) and the speed signs being Metric. We got lazy: we just do what the Americans do and use what they use without giving it any thought.

If you think we could have our own thriving domestic auto industry that could stay competitive with the Americans, then I have a bridge to sell you. You clearly have no idea how much capital is required to develop and build a modern automobile platform. And don't even think of using Sweden as an example. I love Swedish cars for their quirkiness, but they just aren't economically viable on their own- Saab was losing money head over heels until it was bailed out by GM in the 1990s (and then it continued losing money), and the heavy equipment manufacturer Volvo deemed that its car division was not worth keeping, and it too sold it to Ford in the 1990s. If that's any pattern to go by, we would have been American anyways!

Most of the world drives on the correct side of the road. Sweden, at one point, was also driving on the left but made the switch in the 1960s. It was the logical thing to do since it allowed for better integration with Europe- say what you want about national identity, but driving on the left when you have a country of 300 million just south of you driving on the right is pure foolishness. That would have a much larger negative impact on your "development" than keeping the old British standard. Same goes for the electricity standards, and while we're at it I'd like to point out that the NTSC television standard is also used by Japan, South Korea and half of Latin America- it's not just a US thing! Why the hell would you want PAL when all the content-producing countries are on NTSC?

And, as an edit, why is a 20-cent piece so much more logical than 25? Whenever I'm in Europe I always find myself carrying roughly the same amount of change despite the fact that the Euro spends like the dollar, so surely that can't be the reason?