Why does the American rust belt do so much more badly than the Canadian side

[Onn]

Originally Posted by ColDayMan

That's a God damn lie. There's one VERY visible in Cleveland off I-90 if you are coming from Buffalo/Toronto. And Northwest Ohio/Northern Indiana has tons of windfarms.

Still never seen one. I'll be waiting.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Onn

Still never seen one. I'll be waiting.

so annoying.

[MolsonExport]

I predict that this question will resurface in 6 months, from the same OP.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

so annoying.

willful ignorance is indeed the most annoying form of ignorance.

"i haven't seen something with my own eyes, so it clearly doesn't exist, despite boat loads of evidence to the contrary".

i mean, what can you really say to that? it's so childish.





but for people who will actually acknowledge facts:

Ontario total wind farm installed capacity: 2,653 MW

WI, IL, IN, MI, total wind farm installed capacity: 5,091 MW


as of the end of 2011, source: wikipedia

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I predict that this question will resurface in 6 months, from the same OP.

+1

There will also be a question about why America is so over-retailed vs. Canada, why American healthcare is so expensive compared to Canada, why more people ride transit in Canada vs. America, and a host of other nation vs. nation questions. And yes, all from the same OP...

Aaron (Glowrock)

[ColDayMan]

Originally Posted by Onn

Still never seen one. I'll be waiting.

Then you shouldn't be driving if you can't see a windmill in the visual center of an interstate.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Razor

..Like someone else said our version of the rust belt is also our media center, population centre, entertainment center and financial center.It wears many hats....

And this is actually one of the reasons that it has thus far been able to avert serious decline - it's far from a one-trick-pony.

Although it doesn't always have exclusivity in all areas, for Canada southern Ontario can be said to have a lot of the activities of NYC, Boston, Chicago and a whole bunch of other parts of the U.S., all rolled into one region.

In the U.S. things are far more dispersed.

[Centropolis]

yeah we have a hippie-billy/hipster-billy section. i imagine the closest to that would be in the maritimes in canada, but i don't know.

[Nouvellecosse]

What's a hippie-billy/hipster-billy section and is this something the Maritimes would actually want?

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

What's a hippie-billy/hipster-billy section and is this something the Maritimes would actually want?

generally i'm thinking of people that have an urbane type outlook, and haven't exactly renounced their skill in being able to clean and cook wild game, or whatever. like maybe they would be interesting in a parlor cocktail party.

sorry for veering the thread into the weeds.

[P. Alouishous]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

generally i'm thinking of people that have an urbane type outlook, and haven't exactly renounced their skill in being able to clean and cook wild game, or whatever. like maybe they would be interesting in a parlor cocktail party.

sorry for veering the thread into the weeds.

oh, that's B.C.

[Doug]

Investing in Ontario’s future (or not)

David Frum | Aug 11, 2012 6:00 AM ET | Last Updated: Aug 10, 2012 4:35 PM ET

The outlook is most grim for Ontario. Like the U.S. rustbelt, Ontario has been losing industrial jobs, and only new business investment can create the post-industrial jobs of the future. Ontario is not immune to the social consequences of deindustrialization: income decline among less educated people, especially men; family breakdown as men become less marriageable; diminished life chances for children raised without fathers.

Canadians should not arrogantly assume that what has happened to Detroit, Cleveland and Pittsburgh cannot happen to Brantford, Trenton, and Windsor. It can happen, and it is happening. Oil wealth may pay for social programs to cushion the shock of job loss, but a stable society must provide work, not welfare, to its young men and future fathers.


http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/...future-or-not/

[Onn]

Wind farms are a towering rural issue in Michigan

Jim Lynch
The Detroit News
13 August 2012

Ludington— It's a conversation Randy Saxton tries to avoid at all costs because, frankly, it never leads anywhere good. It's hard to do that, however, because the subject — the massive wind turbines now towering over the area — is impossible to miss.

And everyone here has an opinion.

"Whoever you're talking to, they want you to be on their side of the issue," said Saxton, whose home south of Ludington is surrounded by turbines. "You've got one person, usually with a windmill on their property who's getting money for it, saying, 'Aren't they beautiful.' Then there's the other one, who doesn't have one, who feels they're ugly and has absolutely no use for it."

The disagreements over wind turbine farms in Michigan go far beyond aesthetics and have heightened in intensity to go beyond polite conversations. Wind power issues have led to showdowns in elections, public relations battles waged in rural communities and face-offs at local government meetings.

Interest in developing Michigan's wind energy capacity began in earnest late in 2008 when then-Gov. Jennifer Granholm signed legislation requiring the state to generate 10 percent of its electricity from renewable sources by 2015.

Prior to the legislation, the Michigan Public Service Commission was aware of 34 operational turbines in the state. Today, at least 288 of them are fully constructed and producing energy, but there are probably many more, since energy companies are not required to report new turbines.

As these farms have been proposed and constructed, troubles have inevitably risen.

In each instance, the issues are the same: The benefits of a clean energy source, boosts to local economies and employment rates are weighed against the nuisances created by turbines. Those include cluttered landscapes and noise described variously as a "whooshing," to that of music constantly played with a thudding bass to the sound of a helicopter. In addition, there is the shadow flicker effect — when turbine blades create moving shadows across a home or property.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz23RoaxOw2

[mrnyc]

not rust belt, more like farmbelt college town, but i think the oldest and largest modern utility windmill windfarm in ohio is in bowling green in nw ohio just below toledo. beegee+nw ohia holla!


http://www.bgohio.org/departments/ut.../wind-turbines

[flar]

Ontario (outside the GTA and Ottawa) is doing pretty badly right now. In terms of deindustrialization, it's 20-30 years behind places like Michigan, Ohio or PA. A lot of manufacturing in Ontario held on well into the 90s and even 2000s before the effects of NAFTA were felt (the exception is Hamilton/Niagara, which declined at the same time as US rustbelt, it hit rock bottom a looong time ago). Now manufacturing is getting hit again by the high dollar.

Why doesn't Ontario have the same kind of depopulation/abandonment as in the US? Canadians aren't as mobile as Americans. We have a more generous social safety net and there is nowhere else to go. A lot of people in Southern Ontario are going out to Alberta temporarily for work, but NOBODY wants to live there, mainly because of the weather. Southern Ontario winters are grim but tolerable. Prairie winters are just brutal (which is too bad, because Winnipeg would be a nice place to live if it it didn't have six months of winter).

Hamilton would have suffered a lot worse if it wasn't so close to the booming GTA. Lots of people work in Mississauga/Oakville/Burlington (Burlington should be called New Hamilton). Hamilton also has tons of people on welfare and disability, so many the province has to step in with a special transfer payment for social services every year. In the US, those people would have had to move somewhere else or starve.

Other parts of Ontario are suffering slow depopulation or at least stagnation, such as the parts southwest of London towards Windsor, and many places in Northern Ontario, like Sudbury or Thunder Bay.

[Owlhorn]

Originally Posted by P. Alouishous

People are right that there is nowhere else to go in Canada, but weather has little to do with it. In Canada, if you want to live in a decent-sized city you only have three choices. If you don`t speak French and you want to be employed you have two choices.

I`d bet that a lot of the young, working-age people moving out of the rust belt head to places like NYC, Boston, Washington, etc. rather than the sun belt. If I grew up in a place like Buffalo that had few job and entertainment prospects I`d be moving to NYC, not Houston or Phoenix.

And maybe I`m wrong, but aren`t a lot of the people moving to the Sun Belt old and retiredÉ Populations in cities like Phoenix are likely booming because of the aging baby boomer cohort.

no

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by flar

Ontario (outside the GTA and Ottawa) is doing pretty badly right now. In terms of deindustrialization, it's 20-30 years behind places like Michigan, Ohio or PA. A lot of manufacturing in Ontario held on well into the 90s and even 2000s before the effects of NAFTA were felt (the exception is Hamilton/Niagara, which declined at the same time as US rustbelt, it hit rock bottom a looong time ago). Now manufacturing is getting hit again by the high dollar.

Why doesn't Ontario have the same kind of depopulation/abandonment as in the US? Canadians aren't as mobile as Americans. We have a more generous social safety net and there is nowhere else to go. A lot of people in Southern Ontario are going out to Alberta temporarily for work, but NOBODY wants to live there, mainly because of the weather. Southern Ontario winters are grim but tolerable. Prairie winters are just brutal (which is too bad, because Winnipeg would be a nice place to live if it it didn't have six months of winter).

Hamilton would have suffered a lot worse if it wasn't so close to the booming GTA. Lots of people work in Mississauga/Oakville/Burlington (Burlington should be called New Hamilton). Hamilton also has tons of people on welfare and disability, so many the province has to step in with a special transfer payment for social services every year. In the US, those people would have had to move somewhere else or starve.

Other parts of Ontario are suffering slow depopulation or at least stagnation, such as the parts southwest of London towards Windsor, and many places in Northern Ontario, like Sudbury or Thunder Bay.

Absolutely spot on the money.

[eternallyme]

Indeed, Ontario is quickly becoming part of the Rust Belt. Within 10 to 20 years, most likely the smaller towns and cities will be in severe economic turmoil. It may not happen to Toronto (or it might, if the financial sector decides to move west, most likely to Calgary or Vancouver), but the smaller towns and cities will definitely see a major disintegration.

[vid]

Northern Ontario's population is growing due to aboriginal population growth (a similar phenomenon to what you see in developing countries; a very high birth rate among impoverished people), but aboriginal people were significantly under-counted in our previous census, giving the impression of a declining population when the opposite is true.

Many reserves, some with over two thousand people, were not completely enumerated, and didn't count toward any population totals.

There number of white people is declining, while the number of non-white people is growing. There is a general consensus in this region however that only white people are worth counting anyway.

[P. Alouishous]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Indeed, Ontario is quickly becoming part of the Rust Belt. Within 10 to 20 years, most likely the smaller towns and cities will be in severe economic turmoil. It may not happen to Toronto (or it might, if the financial sector decides to move west, most likely to Calgary or Vancouver), but the smaller towns and cities will definitely see a major disintegration.

The financial sector is not going to move out west in our lifetimes (barring some unforeseen drastic shock to the GTA). The sector will remain where the bulk of the population and the talent is: Ontario.