What's Canada's independence from the U.S. worth to you?

Acajack · #1 Posted: **Sep 13, 2012, 1:55 AM**

For most of its history, Canada has been at least slightly less rich than the U.S. At present, some would say that Canada may have passed its neighbour in prosperity and is richer for one of the rare times in history.

So, let's say the gap widened in the U.S.'s favour in the future. How much of a gap would you be willing to accept for Canada to remain independent?

kwoldtimer · #2 Posted: **Sep 13, 2012, 2:02 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

For most of its history, Canada has been at least slightly less rich than the U.S. At present, some would say that Canada may have passed its neighbour in prosperity and is richer for one of the rare times in history.

So, let's say the gap widened in the U.S.'s favour in the future. How much of a gap would you be willing to accept for Canada to remain independent?

Your premise assumes that there are circumstances that would enable Canada NOT to be independent - I don't think there is any reasonable basis for the assumption. Far more likely that Canadians in economic distress would drift south over the border as they have done in the past.

cormiermax · #3 Posted: **Sep 13, 2012, 2:03 AM**

We are way to far apart ideologically and politically to ever unite.

Acajack · #4 Posted: **Sep 13, 2012, 2:08 AM**

All answers are acceptable of course. I'm interested!

Tibor420 · #5 Posted: **Sep 13, 2012, 2:28 AM**

My Life.

I will die before I see Canada become the 51st state. Believe that.

jmt18325 · #6 Posted: **Sep 13, 2012, 2:31 AM**

I can foresee a situation where the world's countries, or at least the like minded ones start to combine into one. The problem is, at the moment, the United States and Canada aren't like minded. Someday, maybe. Now, no, and I would never endorse it as things currently stand.

Acajack · #7 Posted: **Sep 13, 2012, 2:34 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmt18325

I can foresee a situation where the world's countries, or at least the like minded ones start to combine into one. The problem is, at the moment, the United States and Canada aren't like minded. Someday, maybe. Now, no, and I would never endorse it as things currently stand.

This is pretty much the way I see things.

isaidso · #8 Posted: **Sep 13, 2012, 2:41 AM**

I don't want the US Constitution, US political system, US judiciary, US racial issues, US foreign policy, US public education, US lack of universal health care, US military, US crime rates, US religiosity, US income disparity, US views on abortion, US views on homosexuality, US views on sex education, US capital punishment, US gun laws, and likely a shit load of other things.

What does that leave me? So, under no circumstances would I want any union with the US. I like Americans, our bonds are unbreakable, but I'm a Canadian for a reason.

MTLskyline · #9 Posted: **Sep 13, 2012, 2:42 AM**

The US is extremely politically polarized as it is. The country could split in two between the blue and red states. English Canada, Alberta included, might be enticed to join the Blue states half. Quebec would probably be a small standalone country in this scenario.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesusland

Boris2k7 · #10 Posted: **Sep 13, 2012, 2:44 AM**

It's a rather moot point, as the world is heading towards the decline of the nation state. Your nationality is going to become less and less a point of distinction in the future.

isaidso · #11 Posted: **Sep 13, 2012, 2:46 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTLskyline

The US is extremely politically polarized as it is. The country could split in two between the blue and red states. English Canada, Alberta included, might be enticed to join the Blue states half. Quebec would probably be a small standalone country in this scenario.

Is there an assumption in francophone Canada, that anglophone Canada feel unity with the US because they're also anglophone? It's really bizarre if that's the case. Anglophone Canadians have tons more in common with francophone Canadians than we ever will with Americans.

Maybe Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, and Alaska could join Canada. Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan can join later.

Acajack · #12 Posted: **Sep 13, 2012, 2:57 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso

Is there an assumption in francophone Canada, that anglophone Canada feel unity with the US because they're also anglophone?

Yes this impression is fairly widespread.

Razor · #13 Posted: **Sep 13, 2012, 3:09 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso

Is there an assumption in francophone Canada, that anglophone Canada feel unity with the US because they're also anglophone? It's really bizarre if that's the case. Anglophone Canadians have tons more in common with francophone Canadians than we ever will with Americans.

What a great statement...How true!

You can even go out on a limb and say that Canadians as a whole have more in common with the Scandanavian/Nordic countries than with the U.S

The_Architect · #14 Posted: **Sep 13, 2012, 4:07 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso

I don't want the US Constitution, US political system, US judiciary, US racial issues, US foreign policy, US public education, US lack of universal health care, US military, US crime rates, US religiosity, US income disparity, US views on abortion, US views on homosexuality, US views on sex education, US capital punishment, US gun laws, and likely a shit load of other things.

What does that leave me? So, under no circumstances would I want any union with the US. I like Americans, our bonds are unbreakable, but I'm a Canadian for a reason.

Bam. +1

Nouvellecosse · #15 Posted: **Sep 13, 2012, 4:43 AM**

Even if Canada did become significantly poorer than the US, why would we assume that joining the US would change this? The US has both wealthy regions that are far richer than Canada overall, and poor regions that are poorer than Canada overall. Why would we think we wouldn't just become a poor US region and maintain the same level of wealth that we had before joining?

Chadillaccc · #16 Posted: **Sep 13, 2012, 5:21 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso

i don't want the us constitution, us political system, us judiciary, us racial issues, us foreign policy, us public education, us lack of universal health care, us military, us crime rates, us religiosity, us income disparity, us views on abortion, us views on homosexuality, us views on sex education, us capital punishment, us gun laws, and likely a shit load of other things.

What does that leave me? So, under no circumstances would i want any union with the us. I like americans, our bonds are unbreakable, but i'm a canadian for a reason.

exactly

Metro-One · #17 Posted: **Sep 13, 2012, 6:21 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso

I don't want the US Constitution, US political system, US judiciary, US racial issues, US foreign policy, US public education, US lack of universal health care, US military, US crime rates, US religiosity, US income disparity, US views on abortion, US views on homosexuality, US views on sex education, US capital punishment, US gun laws, and likely a shit load of other things.

What does that leave me? So, under no circumstances would I want any union with the US. I like Americans, our bonds are unbreakable, but I'm a Canadian for a reason.

Could not have said it better myself, and even with our current right wing government, the differences between Canada and the US appear to be becoming wider every year. Honestly, their entire political system is currently an international joke.

I would die before ever allowing Canada to become the 51st state.

SignalHillHiker · #18 Posted: **Sep 13, 2012, 10:51 AM**

We (Newfoundland and Labrador) considered joining the United States. I believe it was even one of the options on our first referendum (in the series that eventually resulted with our joining Canada).

Today, though, no union would be possible. It's hard enough keeping conservative, regressive, backwards policies at bay in Canada. In the States, it's even worse.

In fact, almost everything I dislike about Canada is magnified in the States.

jd3189 · #19 Posted: **Sep 13, 2012, 11:11 AM**

There's a whole website and organization dedicated to uniting the two countries. As demonstrated by many here already, that may be a scary idea but aside from many differences, there are many similarities. Anyways just explore the website to see what they are getting at.

http://www.unitednorthamerica.org/

MonctonRad · #20 Posted: **Sep 13, 2012, 12:18 PM**

there's an interesting point of view floating around some halls of academia that the American Revolutionary War should actually be considered the First American Civil War.

Apparently at the beginning of the revolution, about 1/3 of the colonial populace was ardently separatist, 1/3 was royalist and 1/3 didn't care. Sure, there were British regular military and Hessian mercenaries fighting the revolutionaries, but it was also a war between brothers, with units like "His Majesty's Royal Americans" fighting for King and Empire. The war was lost however and ultimately 13 of the 17 British colonies in North America formed their separate state.

At the end of the war, about 75,000 Loyalists felt so strongly about their attachment to the Empire and the misguided principles of the revolutionaries that they decamped the southern colonies for the remaining British colonies in the north.

This process was the beginning of the development of the Canadian nation. Both the Loyalists and the pre-existing French Canadians had good reason to fear and mistrust the Yankees in the new American nation. The War of 1812 (another war between brothers) and the (second) American Civil War further reinforced these sentiments.

There is a definite difference in the mindset of Americans and Canadians. They believe in life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. They mistrust government and central authority. They are more aggressive and unpredictable. We on the other hand believe in peace, order and good government. We believe there is a place for the common good and collective societal rights, as well as individual rights. The collectivism of Canadian society breeds increased security for the individual, manifested by social programs such as universal medicare. These concepts are anathema to many Americans, especially in Republican "red" states.

No, there are too many fundamental psychological differences between Canadians and Americans to ever countenance a union of our two nations. I agree with other posters that at the most fundamental levels, anglophone & francophone Candians have far more in common with each other than they do with their revolutionary cousins south of the border. Our sensibilities are much more European....

Our differences are profound, go back centuries and are rooted in that "First Civil War". There is no going back.