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  #1  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2017, 11:49 PM
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Multiculturalism in Canada

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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Complaining that a place is not diverse enough and judging it for being "too white" is currently a socially-acceptable urban hipster thing to say.

Complaning that a place has too many minorities and isn't "white" enough is a socially taboo, socially-unacceptable racist neanderthal thing to say.

And yet they're two sides of the exact same coin.
Admittedly that's something I've been guilty of. I've sometimes at least commented, if not complained about "whiteness" of certain smaller cities since I've lived in Toronto. Multiculturalism is such a big part of Toronto's culture, that I enjoy, that it's easy to look down on other cities that don't have that.
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Old Posted Feb 11, 2017, 11:54 PM
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I didn't even know there was a "Quebec is racist" stereotype before this topic came up.
Heinous crimes statistics - percentage by 100 000 res.

1st Peterborough (17,9)

7th Vancouver (5,9)

10th Toronto (5,1)

23rd Québec (2,8)

26th Montréal (2,6)

National average (3,9)

SOURCE: LA PRESSE+ from Statistics Canada data.
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  #3  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2017, 1:33 AM
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Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post
I didn't even know there was a "Quebec is racist" stereotype before this topic came up.
It's been a pretty common narrative in contemporary. I am actually a bit reassured that someone of your generation has never heard of it.
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Old Posted Feb 12, 2017, 1:35 AM
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I've never heard that either for what it's worth.
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Old Posted Feb 12, 2017, 1:44 AM
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I've never heard that either for what it's worth.
There's hope for us still!
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Old Posted Feb 12, 2017, 1:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Spocket View Post
I see black. I see white, native, all of it. Culture's the same though.

That's the thing : That idea of multiculturalism can only live within the first generation. We're a remarkably homogeneous society culturally. If immigration stopped tomorrow but %95 of Canadians were first generation, it would be mono-cultural by the second generation. Maybe third for some. You can walk into any long-established restaurant and if it's Greek, count the people of Greek extraction. Chinese ? Do the same thing. The owners have passed on the information of their culture to people not of that culture's stock. That's how cultures spread and integrate.

I can always count on this place to provide a daily dose of the CBC PSAs you may have missed. People in this thread, specifically, keep bringing up how great multiculturalism is without providing any evidence at all for the contention. It's annoying because it's an article of faith but some people here treat it like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. What's so great about some cultures? Some cultures are demonstrably inferior to the one you inherited by being born in Canada.

If the idea is that we need more visible minorities then I have to disagree. We can always use more people and I don't care where they're from but there's nothing that says it's necessary for the functioning of the great society we've built. Why is it somehow better if they're visible minorities ? Islamic culture should not be conflated with Western culture. If you live in an Islamic culture I'm sure you think it's fine. It's completely incompatible with Western culture if you expect certain things to be done the same way but in terms of basic freedoms (specifically around women, religion, and what you're allowed to think) it can't be assimilated. That's fine so long as anybody coming to the West is willing to drop certain aspects but I would say that it's objectively inferior to Western culture. Why do some people think it's a great idea to import as much of that culture as possible? Why is THAT a good idea?

It's the uncritical acceptance of these ideas that annoys me. I have friends from every corner of the earth. Skin color tells me sweet fuck all about what kind of person they are. Spend some time in a country where your culture is the minority and you'll see that people are all the same the world over. There's absolutely nothing about different races that makes them any different. It's the culture and they're not all very good. In fact, the culture you live in is undoubtedly one of the best you could have possibly hoped for. It IS superior even if you feel guilty about it for whatever reason. I always hear this "fact" slipped in that we were all taught that whiteness was better. Somehow being white made you superior. How old are you if you were ever taught that ? You must be pushing at least 80 because the last time any substantial number of people ever held that opinion was sometime in the Jim Crow South. Nobody born since at least 1970 says that. I've never heard anybody seriously say that sort of thing on TV or even in movies. It's such a red herring.
This is a pretty good post. I share about 90-95% of what you said here.

You're right that in our era we are somewhat obsessed with "cultural equivalency", but the reality is that not all cultures are equally enviable as you say. Cultural practices where 10 year old girls get married off to 50 year old men are not "equivalent" to the way such things are usually done in western democracies. Does this mean that I want to impose my views on this on other countries where they marry off little girls? Perhaps not. But I sure as I hell don't think that it would be "six and one half dozen of another" between that and current "Canadian values", and that if it changed it would be no big deal.

Anyway, the best thing about less desirable aspects of culture is that, as you kind of alluded to, no one is genetically predisposed to anything. It's all acquired and it can all be un-acquired too.

Regarding the immigrant groups you mentioned and the incompatibility of certain practices with Canadian society, my position on this is that everyone regardless of background is welcome in Canada, but not all practises are welcomed or encouraged. To be perfectly honest, in almost all communities generally the most problematic practices are not supported by the majority of people in those communities anyway.
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Old Posted Feb 12, 2017, 2:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Mtl View Post
Heinous crimes statistics - percentage by 100 000 res.

1st Peterborough (17,9)

7th Vancouver (5,9)

10th Toronto (5,1)

23rd Québec (2,8)

26th Montréal (2,6)

National average (3,9)

SOURCE: LA PRESSE+ from Statistics Canada data.
I've seen these stats before, and they've been quite consistent (e.g. Quebec on the low end) for a couple of decades.

I once used them in an argument with someone reasonably smart, and to my astonishment, in all seriousness and with a straight face, he countered that in Quebec there were fewer hate crimes because the hateful people here didn't feel compelled to act, given that hate and racism was the dominant view in all levels of society, from the political classes to the education system, the courts, police, etc.
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  #8  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2017, 2:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
It's been a pretty common narrative in contemporary. I am actually a bit reassured that someone of your generation has never heard of it.
Same here, that's good news. I don't think saffronleaf is a representative sample at all though - he seems to have a big chip on his shoulder for some reason, which makes him hateful (but I think I'm libertarian and open enough to tolerate his hate, so, let him think what he wants).
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  #9  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2017, 2:35 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Same here, that's good news. I don't think saffronleaf is a representative sample at all though - he seems to have a big chip on his shoulder for some reason, which makes him hateful (but I think I'm libertarian and open enough to tolerate his hate, so, let him think what he wants).
Hey, you know what I always say about tolerating the intolerant!
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Old Posted Feb 12, 2017, 2:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Hey, you know what I always say about tolerating the intolerant!
Generally I'd agree, but I'm willing to give saffronleaf a break - it's probably not his fault, I assume he was raised in an environment where hate was normal, poor guy...
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  #11  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2017, 2:41 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Generally I'd agree, but I'm willing to give saffronleaf a break - it's probably not his fault, I assume he was raised in an environment where hate was normal, poor guy...
Too bad he didn't grow up in Quebec. He'd be more relaxed around people with different views on things!
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Old Posted Feb 12, 2017, 4:03 AM
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I think that the low count of visible minorities or immigrants in general in Quebec City, compare to other Canadian cities, is very much explained by the fact that it is 100% french. You have to be fluent in french if you want to live there, let alone work there. There are far more immigrants that readily speak english than french.

Why would an Asian or an Indonesian want to to go to one of the most wintery city on the continent, pretty much isolated, and where you have to be able to speak or learn french?

Vancouver or Toronto, where you only have to speak english, is such an obvious, easier, natural choice. Even coming to Montreal is not as easy, because you pretty much have to learn TWO langages to get a decent work. Langage explains in large parts why there are more immigrants going to the ROC rather than here or in Quebec City.

This is one reason why the efforts of the province to encourage french-speaking immigration makes sense and as a result we'll be seeing more and more immigrants from Arab countries here. It's a big wave and we have to adjust to it, just like BC had to adjust to the asian immigration at some point, I suppose.

Also, immigration from France is booming in the province, but that doesn't add much to the visible minority stats, most of France's immigrants being caucasian.
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Old Posted Feb 12, 2017, 4:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Martin Mtl View Post
I think that the low count of visible minorities or immigrants in general in Quebec City, compare to other Canadian cities, is very much explained by the fact that it is 100% french. You have to be fluent in french if you want to live there, let alone work there. There are far more immigrants that readily speak english than french.

Why would an Asian or an Indonesian want to to go to one of the most wintery city on the continent, pretty much isolated, and where you have to be able to speak or learn french?

Vancouver or Toronto, where you only have to speak english, is such an obvious, easier, natural choice. Even coming to Montreal is not as easy, because you pretty much have to learn TWO langages to get a decent work. Langage explains in large parts why there are more immigrants going to the ROC rather than here or in Quebec City.

This is one reason why the efforts of the province to encourage french-speaking immigration makes sense and as a result we'll be seeing more and more immigrants from Arab countries here. It's a big wave and we have to adjust to it, just like BC had to adjust to the asian immigration at some point, I suppose.

Also, immigration from France is booming in the province, but that doesn't add much to the visible minority stats, most of France's immigrants being caucasian.
And that's why focusing on francophone immigration isn't just about linguistic purity, it's about Montreal, Quebec and also Canada capitalizing on a strategic advantage that few other countries have and attracting even more good people. There is far less competition for French-oriented immigrants and the francophone population is increasing rapidly in many parts of the world, and education levels there are high or on the rise.
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Old Posted Feb 12, 2017, 12:04 PM
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Multiculturalism in Canada

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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
+1 to that, it's generally how I view things as well.
Great post. It's remarkable how in rural Saskatchewan the places with a lot of war brides were extremely multicultural following WWII. And even more so many years prior when the land was settled. It's also remarkable how within a relative blip of time all of that multiculturalism is essentially gone, and the places I'm familiar with are incredibly homogeneous. Too much so, in my opinion - it's really difficult to operate very far outside the somewhat rigidly defined norm. Example: not playing hockey as a kid.
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Old Posted Feb 12, 2017, 3:30 PM
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Great post. It's remarkable how in rural Saskatchewan the places with a lot of war brides were extremely multicultural following WWII. And even more so many years prior when the land was settled. It's also remarkable how within a relative blip of time all of that multiculturalism is essentially gone, and the places I'm familiar with are incredibly homogeneous. Too much so, in my opinion - it's really difficult to operate very far outside the somewhat rigidly defined norm. Example: not playing hockey as a kid.
Saskatchewan was until recently, and may still be, the most ethnically diverse province in the country. There is no single group there that is even close to being 50% of the population, and the British Isles group there is substantially smaller in percentage than it is even in BC and Ontario.

Sask is something like 20% British, 25% German, 15% Ukrainian, 5% Finnish, 5% Russian, 5% Dutch, 3% Swedish, 5% French, 15% aboriginal. Anyway, these numbers are not the real numbers at all, but it's just to illustrate how the province is really diverse in terms of origins. The percentage for the group that has a "plurality" is very low. Well under 50%.

And yet it's fairly homogenous culturally due to decades assimilation. (With the possible exception of the aboriginal group.)

It's also the most wholly anglophone province in the country after NL.

So if we take the example of Toronto, it may be that the outcome of its hyper-diversity will eventually be a place that is fairly monocultural, only with lots of different skin colours and facial features.

Kinda like Sao Paulo, Brazil.
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Old Posted Feb 12, 2017, 5:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
It's also the most wholly anglophone province in the country after NL.

So if we take the example of Toronto, it may be that the outcome of its hyper-diversity will eventually be a place that is fairly monocultural, only with lots of different skin colours and facial features.

Kinda like Sao Paulo, Brazil.
Lol when your exposed to Assimilated kids like this you realise how incredibly boring this country is.
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Old Posted Feb 12, 2017, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
So if we take the example of Toronto, it may be that the outcome of its hyper-diversity will eventually be a place that is fairly monocultural, only with lots of different skin colours and facial features.

Kinda like Sao Paulo, Brazil.
The Sask example of diversity is still just white and Euro, disregarding the First Nations, which is readily done in that kind of environment.

Toronto is not São Paulo. Brazil is a linguistic/cultural island for the most part with a heavy strains of racism and white supremacy. Toronto while not perfect is far more advanced in its evolution.
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Old Posted Feb 13, 2017, 3:00 AM
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The Sask example of diversity is still just white and Euro, disregarding the First Nations, which is readily done in that kind of environment.
I specifically accounted for the aboriginal exception in my post. I guess you missed it.

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Toronto is not São Paulo. Brazil is a linguistic/cultural island for the most part with a heavy strains of racism and white supremacy. Toronto while not perfect is far more advanced in its evolution.
That is true, but this will only serve to make Toronto more harmonious, not necessarily any less monocultural (ultimately).
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Old Posted Feb 13, 2017, 3:08 AM
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"Diversity is Our Strength" though. - Justin Trudeau.
(Ok I added the "though" part).
Being the devil's advocate, but diversity can also be having areas within the country that have a United Nations mix of people, others that are mostly of British origins, others mostly of French origin, others mostly indigenous, etc.
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Old Posted Feb 13, 2017, 5:08 AM
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...I never did the census since i was in rehab.
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I don't care what the damn census says. Winnipeg has in excess of 800,000 people. The municipal counts for 2016 is 804,200. We are larger than Quebec City.
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