Not sure I follow your logic here. Nothing is going to be easy or pre-ordained with this referendum.

The real problem I see is no one is publishing the cost breakdown between doing needed repairs and the actual cost of opening the intersection to pedestrians. It's all lumped together and no one is telling people what it will cost NOT to open it.

My bus driving friends are vehemently opposed to the opening on two counts: added traffic delays on streets that already move buses poorly, mainly Portage Ave EB (too many vehicles using the lanes buses have to use) and concerns for pedestrian safety along with that fact that so many pedestrians downtown already ignore the traffic signals and cross when they feel like it, even directly in front of a moving bus.

I'm the odd duck. I want those barricades gone. But I also want all heavy truck traffic removed from Portage Ave and Main St downtown. There's no good reason for semis to be using these streets as through routes. It might take the Louise Bridge replacement to make that happen however.

^ there’s never been a study to replace the barriers, which are crumbling. It could easily be a couple million just to fix them. That’s just for aesthetics. It would cost way more than the $6m for removing the barriers to make it accessible and safe. Not sure it could even really be done.

All the underground work will need to be done regardless.

To put the $6m cost into perspective. The city currently has 81 capital projects going that cost $5million or more.

It totally makes sense that someone who drives for a living would be opposed to things that make that more difficult. I think the argument is there are other issues we need to consider for our city centre.

Looking at the Dillon report. It shows that of 20 movements busses make in the two rush hours, only one shows delays of more than 90 seconds. This does create a lack of capacity through the intersection, but the actual delays are not that bad. We didn’t even buy more busses when we opened our $400 million rapid transit line so I find it hard to believe we would buy more for the delay at PM. But if we do, there will be 12 more busses, which will help capacity for the other 22 hours a day and will create a lot of new driver jobs, so your friends should be in favour!

I hate coming to this thread because the whole issue is so minor to me it makes me mad....it is just a downtown intersection, like Main and Broadway or Portage and Colony. Open it up.

Anyway I will add my two cents. I am for opening it period. But like all arguments for and against maybe we can compromise....what if we open it up but close down pedestrian crossing access during rush hour. Using some kind of system close it during the 2 hr morning and 2 hr evening rush hour.....not sure how exactly, leaving it open the balance of the 24 hour day.

I don't like the idea but sometimes compromises need to be made.

......uuugggg, this thread is like reading about that idiot Donald Trump. I feel compelled to see what he is up to and then find myself angered after reading a few lines of whatever vile thing he is lying about.

This is what angers me most about the whole debate. The people leading the 'No' charge (such as Browaty and Lukes) are blatantly lying in order to appeal to the average suburban voter. They understand that these voters don't really understand the issues, the costs involved in keeping it closed, and only want to get from point A to point B as quickly as possible without any consideration for anyone or anything in between.

No one's floated the idea of just filling the underground with concrete and putting up a memorial time capsule sign?

Are Winnipeggers at all aware of how dumb this Portage and Main situation is?

Because, boy, it's dumb.

Tear down the wall and fill in the Tunnel of Piss.

The tunnel of piss should be the underground connection to a BRT station downtown. :yes:

More likely scenario is that WT will not add buses and drivers (buses cost money and they can't hire and keep enough drivers as it is) and no extra time will be added to existing routes and the already late afternoon rush hour buses will be even later.

I have a renewed sense of annoyance at this whole thing. It's just embarrassing. So small-town and short-sighted. So many other cities are turning their downtowns into awesome destinations, and here some people are against that because it might make their 30 minute drive from one side of the city to the other a minute longer. All while saving someone actually trying to walk there at least 5.

Does anyone with poll (i.e. City Councillors, the Mayor, etc) follow skyscraperpage? Maybe we can tweet some of them, and link to the poll results.

Bowman is the anti-Klein. If Ralph Klein was still alive and 30 years younger (and living in Winnipeg), he would just force the intersection open, and tell all of his opponents, to move to a different city if they did not like the job he did.

just to weigh in on this again....I dissected the traffic study with an engineer who knows exactly what all the numbers mean. I was misreading them, thinking the delay was above the existing as a baseline, but it is actually a raw time. There is existing delay. The average time you sit at the light basically.

This is the straight goods:

The average length of time a car spends waiting at the intersection in the morning rush hour is: 20.7 seconds.

The average length of time a car will spend at the intersection in the morning rush hour with pedestrians is: 30.6 seconds

The added delay is 10 seconds.


The average length of time a car spends waiting at the intersection in the morning rush hour is: 19.6 seconds.

The average length of time a car will spend at the intersection in the evening rush hour with pedestrians is: 52.6 seconds

the added delay is 33 seconds.

50% of cars travveling through will see no difference or a slight improvement.

that's insane.

He will win, but his balls need to drop already, geez.

When you see the intersection up close, which most people don't because there is no reason to go there except the 1% of the population that works there, its hard not to imagine it being out of place in Syria it's in such disrepair it's embarrassing as a city and it needs to be fixed.

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Ian McCausland
https://www.facebook.com/ian.mccausland
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Yesterday I did what I wish many would do, I spent an hour at Portage & Main. Not racing through it in my car, on the ground, on foot. I saw many things in that one hour:

-I saw a traffic flow that was a mixture of all modes of transportation, including a ton of cyclists
-I saw two people defiantly cross the intersection, barriers be damned!
-I saw a young dad struggle with his toddler's stroller up one of the staircases to street level.
-I saw plenty of dark corners, blind spots and sketchy staircases that would only get more ominous at night.
-I saw a senior with mobility issues looking confused navigating the concourse. I wondered how long it took for him to across the street.
- I saw a family set up a tripod and take a family portrait at this ionic intersection to show that they were in Winnipeg.
-I saw a trolley full of tourists take pics of the corner with their phones while being explained of the historical significance of the corner.
-I saw abandoned flower beds that were basically just raised dirt.
-I saw crumbling infrastructure , open rebar, weeds growing between crumbling concrete, steps that were unsafe due to crumbling. (money will be spent here regardless of the outcome of the plebiscite)

I invite all of you to do the same, go downtown, park the car, get out and walk around the intersection. Equate that experience with other more vibrant sections of the downtown.
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Yup. My business partner and I were walking north on Main, on the east side, to go back to our office on Main & Bannatyne. The steps down to the underground were f*cking disgusting, filled with litter and reeked of piss – plus it takes so much longer, we weren't doing it. If we were to follow the laws/street design, we have had to walk all the way to Westbrook to cross the street, then back to Main.

It is 561 meters to walk from the SE corner of P&M, to Westbrook, cross E Portage, and back to the NE corner of P&M. Over half a kilometre!!! Crossing the intersection if it was open is 44m.

This would have been absolutely ridiculous, so we just jaywalked where the barricade ends by the Fairmont.

Was talking to a former politician the other day about this, and he brought some interesting things up. Think of all the history of this corner. Strike activity. Many protests. Jets celebrations... no matter how much TN wants them to stay at TNS – people will go to P&M. It's the natural centre of our city. Has been for over 100 years.

Next year is the 100th anniversary of the 1919 strike - if this vote really happens (I still think I'm dreaming) and it comes to a no, I will campaign for Winnipeggers to show up with sledgehammers on June 21 and "tear down those walls!" to commemorate the centennial.

Why stop at sledgehammers? Why not the full pick axe, or better yet, jackhammers for those who have them? ;)

Close it down at exactly the time of day when the most pedestrians would want to use it?

BRB, booking a flight to Winnipeg.

It's actually amazing that it hasn't been condemned and closed.

Had lunch with my father-in-law yesterday at the Fairmont (back door burgers) and he asked how I felt about opening up the intersection. I said I was for it and he seemed shocked. So I took him on a walk into the underground and explained the safety concerns and the brutal conditions for anyone in a wheel chair or with a stroller. Needless to say he was converted. Long story short, seeing is believing. Physical tours would not be a bad idea in terms of educating the general public on this matter.