Metro Phoenix Aviation Thread

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by ASU Diablo

Tried watching it live so some of my details may be slightly incorrect (haven’t seen the YT link below yet) but construction on the West terminal would start around 2034. Also, looks like it wouldn’t be a dedicated International terminal but even more puzzling, was that they plan on keeping the International arrival area in T4 in addition to the new one in West terminal. Seems a little duplicative but hey what do I know.

.... Start construction in 2034.... okay Ill come check back oin on this in 6 or 7 years.

[ASU Diablo]

Originally Posted by Obadno

.... Start construction in 2034.... okay Ill come check back oin on this in 6 or 7 years.

Got a chance to see the video. It's going to take about 6 years for Environmental Review and government red-tape w/ the FAA. Apologies, it was 2032 when construction would start and then would open up by 2037 or so.

One of the things I found surprising was that forecast models over the next 20 years still don't see the need for a 4th runway.

[ASU Diablo]

https://kjzz.org/content/1879286/new...nd-until-2032.

Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport plans to build a new terminal on the airport’s west side, close to where former Terminals 1 and 2 were located before being demolished.

Construction isn’t expected to begin until 2032 because the FAA’s environmental process will take about five years, followed by design work. “I would much rather do it now in a kind of a phased approach, we can always slow down that process if our airlines, or any other entity, or we have a, you know another industry event that slows down our growth, for whatever reason, we can always pause, but we can't’ get that time back,” Aviation Director Chad Makovsky told the City Council Tuesday.

Councilwoman Ann O’Brien, whose district includes Taiwanese chip manufacturer TSMC, asked if future plans will include a dedicated terminal to international travelers. Makovsky said international flights account for 6% of Sky Harbor traffic.

“So many of our airlines serve both domestic and international destinations at the same time and so that's why what we're proposing is, we have an international concourse at Terminal 4 today, we need to recognize the growth in international in Phoenix, and so what we intend to do is really look at an international facility in the new terminal as well,” he said. “So, there'll be two terminals that have international operations within the airport.”

Makovsky said other projects are underway, including a new concourse at Terminal 3 and a post-security walkway between Terminals 3 and 4. “We’'ll be investing more than $3.5 billion over the next six years, which amounts to — it's really a staggering number when you start talking about billions — it amounts to roughly $1.6 million in investment every single day over the next six years,” he said.

To cover infrastructure costs, Sky Harbor relies on passenger facility charges, bonds and federal tax dollars. In 2022, Sky Harbor was the busiest three-runway airport in the world and in 2023, it reported more than 48 million passengers.

[azliam]

Originally Posted by ASU Diablo

https://kjzz.org/content/1879286/new...nd-until-2032.

Is it typical for an environmental assessment to take that long and what is all involved in that? It just seems crazy to take that long of a period of time considering there used to be another terminal where this one will go even though there is a change in land use. But I'm not expert on this type of stuff...

[exit2lef]

I just watched the recording. The environmental review process is going to last as long as Jim Waring's bombastic bloviation after the staff presentation.

[MiEncanto]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

I just watched the recording. The environmental review process is going to last as long as Jim Waring's bombastic bloviation after the staff presentation.

lol does that mean it will only take like 5 minutes or are you saying that figuratively, like it's going to take way more time than it should.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by MiEncanto

lol does that mean it will only take like 5 minutes or are you saying that figuratively, like it's going to take way more time than it should.

The latter. With that particular councilman, five minutes seems like five hours.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by azliam

Is it typical for an environmental assessment to take that long and what is all involved in that? It just seems crazy to take that long of a period of time considering there used to be another terminal where this one will go even though there is a change in land use. But I'm not expert on this type of stuff...

The environmental assessment process is insanely obtuse, wasteful and slow.

The whole thing needs to be thrown out and a new process created. 10 years for approval to build an airport terminal on an existing airport... on an existing footprint of a former terminal?


This is a well known problem with the EPA and people have been complaining about it for decades

[MiEncanto]

Originally Posted by Obadno

The environmental assessment process is insanely obtuse, wasteful and slow.

The whole thing needs to be thrown out and a new process created. 10 years for approval to build an airport terminal on an existing airport... on an existing footprint of a former terminal?


This is a well known problem with the EPA and people have been complaining about it for decades

Once you create a cottage industry around a bureaucratic processes, it's going to be difficult to burn that cottage down, lest you deal with the wrath of lawyers and consultants who make money in said village.

[ASU Diablo]

Originally Posted by Obadno

The environmental assessment process is insanely obtuse, wasteful and slow.

The whole thing needs to be thrown out and a new process created. 10 years for approval to build an airport terminal on an existing airport... on an existing footprint of a former terminal?


This is a well known problem with the EPA and people have been complaining about it for decades

You misspelled the FAA.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by ASU Diablo

Also, looks like it wouldn’t be a dedicated International terminal but even more puzzling, was that they plan on keeping the International arrival area in T4 in addition to the new one in West terminal. Seems a little duplicative but hey what do I know.

This part of the presentation really puzzled me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't think of any U.S. airports that have international arrivals spread over two or more terminals. By having a single place for incoming flights, only one immigration and customs facility needs to be staffed. Considering how shabby the one at Terminal 4 is, I would hope to see something much better at the new West Terminal.

Also, there was some discussion of terminal names, but no one acknowledged the weirdness of having terminals 3 and 4 but no terminals 1 or 2. Since the two current terminals already have secondary names of Goldwater and McCain, why not just shift to using those, adding the Ragsdale Terminal (or whatever name is chosen) after it is built.

[halicem]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

This part of the presentation really puzzled me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't think of any U.S. airports that have international arrivals spread over two or more terminals. By having a single place for incoming flights, only one immigration and customs facility needs to be staffed. Considering how shabby the one at Terminal 4 is, I would hope to see something much better at the new West Terminal.

JFK is an example of this, each terminal essentially has their own arrivals processing. This is due to it being hubs for Delta & American, United used to have presence there before pulling out and consolidating to EWR (taking a chunk of alliance airlines with them too). Most of the foreign flag carriers park with their domestic partners since a healthy amount of their customers are also going to be connecting.

LAX is in a fairly similar boat since each of the big 3 have their own terminals there and Tom Bradley international terminal is basically used for:
- domestic overflow for the big 3. This is fairly new for the big 3 with the post-security connections now possible, so weird deplaning from a 737 on to Tom Bradley and walking half-a-mile to the connection
- non-alliance airlines, like Etihad
- A380 gates, since it's the only terminal AFAIK that can accommodate it in LAX

With Sky Harbor, only American could choose to fly a trans-oceanic route but it's unlikely given they have hubs closer to the coast. United/Delta don't have hubs here.

I will be on the Air France flight end of the month, and since they're SkyTeam I thought they should be in Terminal 3 with Delta but that's a no. I'll get to experience first-hand how shabby international T4 is going to be. I suspect some folks could get tripped up with that especially since you can book the flight through Delta (which is what I did). I also don't actually know where the check-in is going to be lol.

All that to say, if there were to be an international terminal, I'd propose reconfiguring Terminal 3 for that AND make sure post-security terminal transfers are in place and reasonable. Maybe add another platform to the skytrain to form a post-security loop just between the 3 terminals. T3 is centrally located and should be easier to reach for both West and T4.

It's also the smallest footprint, given that our international traffic would likely come from foreign airlines, possibly non-alliance airlines, I think it makes sense to give them that space.

West and T4 would also need to a pre-immigration walkway to get to the arrival processing center in this hypothetical setup -- it'll be a long walk but it's common especially with international hub airports (Schipol, Incheon, actually Seattle's new Arrivals processing also involves a long walk now from their satellite international terminal)

Having said all that, I do wish there was an international terminal, but I understand why they're opting for each terminal having their own processing (except T3) -- because they're not forecasting as much traffic to warrant a central terminal like that.

But who knows, that West Terminal with 40 gates is huge. Are they courting United/Delta?

[PHXFlyer16]

As Halicem stated, most large airports do have multiple customs facilities. This is because they have hubbed airlines in separate terminals and you don’t want passengers on say, an American or Southwest flight, to have to change terminals to catch their connecting flight.

The new terminal would house either AA or SW. So you need customs facilities in both places. Also, 40 gates is massive. Some of the largest airports in the don’t have 40 international gates. There’s no use in Phoenix for more than 10-20 international gates.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer16

As Halicem stated, most large airports do have multiple customs facilities. This is because they have hubbed airlines in separate terminals and you don’t want passengers on say, an American or Southwest flight, to have to change terminals to catch their connecting flight.

The new terminal would house either AA or SW. So you need customs facilities in both places. Also, 40 gates is massive. Some of the largest airports in the don’t have 40 international gates. There’s no use in Phoenix for more than 10-20 international gates.

Okay, but at airports with fewer international flights (like Phoenix), my experience has been that all flights incoming from other countries (except places with preclearance like Canada and Bermuda) arrive at one terminal. Sky Harbor officials must be pretty confident about expanded international service if they think there will be enough flights to sustain two separate customs facilities. I hope they're right.

[N830MH]

Hi all,

Air France will converted to year-round long instead of seasonal. Will continue on three times per week.

https://aviationweek.com/air-transpo...rk-five-cities

The winter schedule will also see Denver and Phoenix Sky Harbor (PHX) converted to year-round routes, each operating three times per week. Flights to PHX will be inaugurated on May 23, marking the first nonstop route between France and the U.S. city.

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

Okay, but at airports with fewer international flights (like Phoenix), my experience has been that all flights incoming from other countries (except places with preclearance like Canada and Bermuda) arrive at one terminal. Sky Harbor officials must be pretty confident about expanded international service if they think there will be enough flights to sustain two separate customs facilities. I hope they're right.

The facilities are driven by the airline hubs. If you move southwest out of Terminal 4 to the new terminal then you need a facility in each, pretty simple.

[RichTempe]

Heightened Demand: Air France Updates New Paris-Phoenix Service From Seasonal To Year-Round

https://simpleflying.com/air-france-...to-year-round/


Not surprised, but didn't think it would happen virtually immediately. Now we'll have to see if they increase the frequency as well.

[halicem]

Trip Report: PHX-PAR Roundtrip

I took the inaugural flight last week, and returned May 30. I happened to be going to a wedding out in Germany and the schedule worked out which let me be on the flight on May 23.

Outbound
A big upside to this schedule imo is the 2pm departure time, landing at 9am the following day. For those who can sleep on a plane, the 11hr flight time is just right to have dinner, get a solid night of sleep (however way you can) and be off the plane and go about your day. I don't think this schedule could be made any more perfect just the way it is.

Check-in was with the other international airlines past American/Southwest. A few folks made the mistake of going to Terminal 3 where Delta is because they booked their flights through Delta (since Air France is on the same SkyTeam alliance). This being their first day, they were still learning the setup and some of the signs were unclear for which lines belonged to which.

One note: if you are seated on an exit row, you will get asked upon check-in if you are willing and able to assist in case of an emergency even if instruction were given in either English or French. I answered yes before she even got to the last part and it didn't register with me until I was in and walking towards the gate. I approached the gate agents over it since all I knew were basic French words lol. They said it was fine. My connection was also on Air France, also on an exit row. During safety demo, the FA asked which language and 3 of 4 on the row said English and they continued with English so..

With the festivities on the 23rd, it was so crowded in the gate area since there was a podium and a spread as well (I got to meet Chris Mackay, she's a delight!). But with these wide bodies, I think it will definitely be crowded and there's probably really only enough room to service one wide body at a time. I can't imagine what the gate situation must've been like when British Airways flew the 747s a few years ago. There's also a single jetway in/out, door #2 just after business class, boarding can get frantic especially since we started boarding late with the activities happening around the gate. Most big airports have a dual jetway setup for wide bodies with door 1 (dedicated for first/biz during boarding, and faster deplaning upon arrival once first has cleared out).

And from the looks of it, I think B23/B25 are the only wide body international capable gates too. I didn't do business class so I don't know what the lounge situation was like for biz class passengers since Delta's SkyClub is on Terminal 3.. I don't know if they have an arrangement with another lounge in Terminal 4, Centurion lounge is the closest but I don't believe they contract with airlines. (Side-note I always wondered why the Centurion lounge was all the way out there and now I know why lol)

If you have status on SkyTeam that lets you get in on the AF lounges, this makes CDG a more bearable airport (one of the most confusing and frustrating layouts) for connections since most of the terminals and satellite concourses will have an AF lounge WITH a shower. So you can definitely shower during your layover after having gotten the sleep. And with CDG, it's important to actually get to your gate first since it could be 30 minutes away, with a half-mile walk just to get to a bus transfer for a 10-minute bus ride. You don't have to stay in the main building's fancy lounge just to have a shower.

Inbound
Departed CDG out of terminal 2E, M-gates. Get there as early as you can comfortably. I opted to stay at an airport hotel the night before since I didn't want to deal with the logistics of a 10am flight. I left the hotel at 8am, by the time I got to the gate it was 9:30am and all boarding groups have boarded. I even happened to have access to the priority lines for this flight (lines weren't crazy long in general but they were just slow moving). I still had 20 minutes before the boarding door closed so I wasn't panicked but highly dependent on your situation and level of comfort.

Flight was uneventful, 11hrs back and landed on-time. It's a pretty good schedule again, wish I had more time in Paris with an evening departure but the noon arrival lets you have a good chunk of your day back to actually unpack, get sorted out and turn in early and go back to work next day. I actually went back to work that afternoon myself (WFH setup) and it was very doable.

It was my first time going through international arrivals through PHX, I didn't know it had a basement level lol! I appreciated that there was no long hallway to get to the facilities and you basically hop on an escalator immediately just outside the gate. But the hallways kinda gave off basic office vibes with some nice paintings on the walls. The passport and customs hall were nice, bright and big and it definitely had more than enough capacity, felt pretty empty honestly. After customs is a set of escalators to take you back to level 4 to emerge right by the TSA checkpoints.

Most of the FAs on this flight have never been to Phoenix and they were pretty excited. They'll have a full day here on Friday and most have trips up north planned already. Bags took awhile to arrive and it was interesting to see them also wait for check-in luggage (some are going hiking and brought their equipment).

All in all, solid flight and I'm glad we have it! More than anything, we really need to have that new international terminal for future growth. There's just not enough space in those gates to serve wide bodies adequately. And I think we can have a better arrival experience... like cut out the trip to the basement, put it on top of the terminal even so first-time visitors get to see camelback right there!

[exit2lef]

^Thanks for this. How was the seating on board the aircraft? I assume because you were in an exit row, that it was coach. How was the legroom for an overnight flight? When I've flown British Airways business class to Heathrow, I remember having access to a lounge upstairs in the T4 international class concourse. Is that still there? I wonder if Air France could contract to use that since the flight to London is much later in the day.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by halicem

Trip Report: PHX-PAR Roundtrip

I took the inaugural flight last week, and returned May 30. I happened to be going to a wedding out in Germany and the schedule worked out which let me be on the flight on May 23.

Outbound
A big upside to this schedule imo is the 2pm departure time, landing at 9am the following day. For those who can sleep on a plane, the 11hr flight time is just right to have dinner, get a solid night of sleep (however way you can) and be off the plane and go about your day. I don't think this schedule could be made any more perfect just the way it is.

Check-in was with the other international airlines past American/Southwest. A few folks made the mistake of going to Terminal 3 where Delta is because they booked their flights through Delta (since Air France is on the same SkyTeam alliance). This being their first day, they were still learning the setup and some of the signs were unclear for which lines belonged to which.

One note: if you are seated on an exit row, you will get asked upon check-in if you are willing and able to assist in case of an emergency even if instruction were given in either English or French. I answered yes before she even got to the last part and it didn't register with me until I was in and walking towards the gate. I approached the gate agents over it since all I knew were basic French words lol. They said it was fine. My connection was also on Air France, also on an exit row. During safety demo, the FA asked which language and 3 of 4 on the row said English and they continued with English so..

With the festivities on the 23rd, it was so crowded in the gate area since there was a podium and a spread as well (I got to meet Chris Mackay, she's a delight!). But with these wide bodies, I think it will definitely be crowded and there's probably really only enough room to service one wide body at a time. I can't imagine what the gate situation must've been like when British Airways flew the 747s a few years ago. There's also a single jetway in/out, door #2 just after business class, boarding can get frantic especially since we started boarding late with the activities happening around the gate. Most big airports have a dual jetway setup for wide bodies with door 1 (dedicated for first/biz during boarding, and faster deplaning upon arrival once first has cleared out).

And from the looks of it, I think B23/B25 are the only wide body international capable gates too. I didn't do business class so I don't know what the lounge situation was like for biz class passengers since Delta's SkyClub is on Terminal 3.. I don't know if they have an arrangement with another lounge in Terminal 4, Centurion lounge is the closest but I don't believe they contract with airlines. (Side-note I always wondered why the Centurion lounge was all the way out there and now I know why lol)

If you have status on SkyTeam that lets you get in on the AF lounges, this makes CDG a more bearable airport (one of the most confusing and frustrating layouts) for connections since most of the terminals and satellite concourses will have an AF lounge WITH a shower. So you can definitely shower during your layover after having gotten the sleep. And with CDG, it's important to actually get to your gate first since it could be 30 minutes away, with a half-mile walk just to get to a bus transfer for a 10-minute bus ride. You don't have to stay in the main building's fancy lounge just to have a shower.

Inbound
Departed CDG out of terminal 2E, M-gates. Get there as early as you can comfortably. I opted to stay at an airport hotel the night before since I didn't want to deal with the logistics of a 10am flight. I left the hotel at 8am, by the time I got to the gate it was 9:30am and all boarding groups have boarded. I even happened to have access to the priority lines for this flight (lines weren't crazy long in general but they were just slow moving). I still had 20 minutes before the boarding door closed so I wasn't panicked but highly dependent on your situation and level of comfort.

Flight was uneventful, 11hrs back and landed on-time. It's a pretty good schedule again, wish I had more time in Paris with an evening departure but the noon arrival lets you have a good chunk of your day back to actually unpack, get sorted out and turn in early and go back to work next day. I actually went back to work that afternoon myself (WFH setup) and it was very doable.

It was my first time going through international arrivals through PHX, I didn't know it had a basement level lol! I appreciated that there was no long hallway to get to the facilities and you basically hop on an escalator immediately just outside the gate. But the hallways kinda gave off basic office vibes with some nice paintings on the walls. The passport and customs hall were nice, bright and big and it definitely had more than enough capacity, felt pretty empty honestly. After customs is a set of escalators to take you back to level 4 to emerge right by the TSA checkpoints.

Most of the FAs on this flight have never been to Phoenix and they were pretty excited. They'll have a full day here on Friday and most have trips up north planned already. Bags took awhile to arrive and it was interesting to see them also wait for check-in luggage (some are going hiking and brought their equipment).

All in all, solid flight and I'm glad we have it! More than anything, we really need to have that new international terminal for future growth. There's just not enough space in those gates to serve wide bodies adequately. And I think we can have a better arrival experience... like cut out the trip to the basement, put it on top of the terminal even so first-time visitors get to see camelback right there!

Awesome, I was telling my wife we should go to France this summer now that the direct flight is here, LHR always felt just a bit short to get a decent nights rest and you always end up wasting a good part of a day in London since you missed so much sleep on that flight. This sounds like the perfect fly time and I hear AF has pretty solid service, honestly really liked BA and never had a problem with AA either.

Would be ecstatic if we can ever get a Qatar or Emirates flights, those we're both my favorites.