Portage and Main re-opening 2016

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by Bluenote

THE people of the city have spoken. They made the decision. Not city hall. So if you like. Go yell at your 78% of your friends as that’s where it stands now. Who want it kept closed.

And are we going to pull a TNS crap now about subsidies? Omfg company A pumps billions into city. City pumps 9 million back. What a shitty deal.
It’s the same for Artis right now. What the are doing will change PnM more then office workers crossing it.

And y’all need to get over this place being some sacred ground like Times Square. It’s an old ox cart junction and that’s about it. And now it’s an old car junction. It’s always been about transportation.

Either way. It’s staying CLOSEd. So move one on how to make what we got better instead of bitching about the mall. You must be one of those protesting the tower going up to I guess. Since the MALL amd tower are one in the same...........

Ugggggg winnipegers always want to bitch.

Did I miss something? The people have spoken?

[DancingDuck]

Originally Posted by Bluenote

THE people of the city have spoken. They made the decision. Not city hall. So if you like. Go yell at your 78% of your friends as that’s where it stands now. Who want it kept closed.

There has been no decision made yet... that's why we're having a referendum. Last I heard it was closer to 55% close 45% open? But I guess it depends which polls you use..

What people should be focusing on is the ages of those for and against, age range 55+ want it closed and age range 18-30 want it open, maybe we should listen to the people who will have to deal with it the longest

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by Bluenote

THE people of the city have spoken. They made the decision. Not city hall. So if you like. Go yell at your 78% of your friends as that’s where it stands now. Who want it kept closed.

And are we going to pull a TNS crap now about subsidies? Omfg company A pumps billions into city. City pumps 9 million back. What a shitty deal.
It’s the same for Artis right now. What the are doing will change PnM more then office workers crossing it.

And y’all need to get over this place being some sacred ground like Times Square. It’s an old ox cart junction and that’s about it. And now it’s an old car junction. It’s always been about transportation.

Either way. It’s staying CLOSEd. So move one on how to make what we got better instead of bitching about the mall. You must be one of those protesting the tower going up to I guess. Since the MALL amd tower are one in the same...........

Ugggggg winnipegers always want to bitch.

That's rich

[Jets4Life]

Originally Posted by OTA in Winnipeg

This isn't directed at anyone here specifically. But fucking seriously? Can't any of you naysayers not see what this could become? Portage and Main is known worldwide to anyone who follows hockey. And not only them. It's genuinely an iconic intersection, And that is a word I seldom use. Why don't you think this could not turn into a world class Times Square? No one thought that would happen there did they?

https://www.google.ca/search?q=old+t...4uwnAIl1JHkoM:

But it did, didn't it. It's like there's so many children here who have never looked at a book or investigated recent history.

Wake up.

It may have something to do with Times Square being in the centre of Manhattan, and having 20 million people within the metro area. Winnipeg has 750,000. Plus Times Square was a significant landmark for a century before it was cleaned up in the 90s.

Portage and Main is no Times Square.

[Jets4Life]

Originally Posted by The Jabroni

If more young people gets more engaged and learn how, and why Portage and Main was closed in the first place, then this whole issue would become more serious, and not scoring "political cookies" for the ones who don't give a flying f*ck and want it closed.

I don't think too many people give a flying fuck either way. It reminds me of the Eaton's building debate. Not many cared, and the people that did were in the extreme minority. IN fact, the silent majority wanted it torn down, and the arena built. The end result was one of the most profitable entertainment complexes in Winnipeg history, and now with an NHL team, it has rejuvenated the surrounding area. If we had listened to those "Save the Eaton's" fools, we would still be stuck in 1995, without an NHL team, and losing money and people to other places in Canada.

[Jets4Life]

Originally Posted by Bluenote

THE people of the city have spoken. They made the decision. Not city hall. So if you like. Go yell at your 78% of your friends as that’s where it stands now. Who want it kept closed.

And are we going to pull a TNS crap now about subsidies? Omfg company A pumps billions into city. City pumps 9 million back. What a shitty deal.
It’s the same for Artis right now. What the are doing will change PnM more then office workers crossing it.

And y’all need to get over this place being some sacred ground like Times Square. It’s an old ox cart junction and that’s about it. And now it’s an old car junction. It’s always been about transportation.

Either way. It’s staying CLOSEd. So move one on how to make what we got better instead of bitching about the mall. You must be one of those protesting the tower going up to I guess. Since the MALL amd tower are one in the same...........

Ugggggg winnipegers always want to bitch.

This is the greatest single post I have come across is some time on the forum. You are the voice of reason. Well done.

[roccerfeller]

Originally Posted by Bluenote

THE people of the city have spoken. They made the decision. Not city hall. So if you like. Go yell at your 78% of your friends as that’s where it stands now. Who want it kept closed.

And are we going to pull a TNS crap now about subsidies? Omfg company A pumps billions into city. City pumps 9 million back. What a shitty deal.
It’s the same for Artis right now. What the are doing will change PnM more then office workers crossing it.

And y’all need to get over this place being some sacred ground like Times Square. It’s an old ox cart junction and that’s about it. And now it’s an old car junction. It’s always been about transportation.

Either way. It’s staying CLOSEd. So move one on how to make what we got better instead of bitching about the mall. You must be one of those protesting the tower going up to I guess. Since the MALL amd tower are one in the same...........

Ugggggg winnipegers always want to bitch.

Irony, non?

[roccerfeller]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

It may have something to do with Times Square being in the centre of Manhattan, and having 20 million people within the metro area. Winnipeg has 750,000. Plus Times Square was a significant landmark for a century before it was cleaned up in the 90s.

Portage and Main is no Times Square.

I agree that kind of direct comparison is a bit of an exaggeration, but the point I think was highlighting what the simple act of allowing pedestrians to cross a street does, at such a busy intersection. By sheer traffic volume, that's not even the busiest intersection in Winnipeg - yet it has barriers up. Imagine not allowing people to cross at confusion corner? Or suddenly in Calgary a decision is made to put barriers around the Centre St office towers to prevent people from crossing the street

Further, the whole reason the barriers went up in the first place was to promote an underground development, which was a very late 60's early 70's "parking lots downtown" line of thinking. Personally, I have no problem with it as a mall - I think an underground mall is a cool concept, and it connects to the skywalk system - but it shouldn't define the area and the barriers still being there are arguably absurd. Today, the thinking is more along the lines of "how can we improve downtown, make it more inviting to young people, professionals, putting the focus back on the pedestrian, the cyclist" This is because having pedestrians leads to more vibrancy, it is also inviting to businesses and helps make it safer.

There are a lot of "old man yells at cloud" going on too. I have yet to hear a reasonable argument, especially when the 10 million dollar value gets taken out of context and is used as a political tactic that misdirect people. The underground mall isn't going anywhere, people will continue to use it, especially in the winter, especially when this new residential tower goes up. It's just about connecting the corners of downtown at what are Winnipeg's largest office towers, and ultimately connecting downtown.

[The Unknown Poster]

Originally Posted by Bluenote

THE people of the city have spoken. They made the decision. Not city hall. So if you like. Go yell at your 78% of your friends as that’s where it stands now. Who want it kept closed.

And are we going to pull a TNS crap now about subsidies? Omfg company A pumps billions into city. City pumps 9 million back. What a shitty deal.
It’s the same for Artis right now. What the are doing will change PnM more then office workers crossing it.

And y’all need to get over this place being some sacred ground like Times Square. It’s an old ox cart junction and that’s about it. And now it’s an old car junction. It’s always been about transportation.

Either way. It’s staying CLOSEd. So move one on how to make what we got better instead of bitching about the mall. You must be one of those protesting the tower going up to I guess. Since the MALL amd tower are one in the same...........

Ugggggg winnipegers always want to bitch.

Ummmmm.....

[Hecate]

If there would have been a referendum on the mts centre it wouldn’t have been built. And we probably wouldn’t have the jets back today. Do you people all forget about the bitching about the traffic and the lack of safety downtown. The portage and main debate is pathetic and an embarrassment to the city and province. Open it up.

[dmacc]

Does anyone know where to find the report that was done on the opening of P&M? I'd love to take a look at it. The only issue I've found with many of these types of reports is they don't typically do a good job of explaining the true economic impact of a project. Granted trying to pin something like that down is a hugely complex task to undertake as predicting long term economic benefits/down falls are often not accurately quantifiable until after the fact.

I think it was a big mistake to open this decision up to the people, the majority of who don't actually use the intersection. Though I lean more to the keep it closed side, I am pretty confident that this will stay closed now that they put it to a referendum. Generally the people who don't want things changed are older groups of people. Those are the people who vote in record numbers. The young people who want it open won't show up to the polls to make their desires known. In the end it will be their own fault.

[Hecate]

And nobody thinks portage and main will become Times Square overnight. But the point is that in a city of millions like New York nobody is preventing pedestrians from crossing a major intersection... and getting back to confusion corner there’s a bloody bus loop in the middle of that intersection. Where are the people bitching about safety there. The half assed excuses people are spewing to keep this intersection closed are lame and uneducated.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by DancingDuck

There has been no decision made yet... that's why we're having a referendum. Last I heard it was closer to 55% close 45% open? But I guess it depends which polls you use..

What people should be focusing on is the ages of those for and against, age range 55+ want it closed and age range 18-30 want it open, maybe we should listen to the people who will have to deal with it the longest

Completely agree, and I say this about a lot of things. I (somewhat jokingly) would be all for a cap age on politicians at 60 for the same reason. The worst part about it too is that not only the timespan of the decision makers left here, but the fact that they generally don't use a lot of the services in question nearly as much as younger people.

Originally Posted by dmacc

Does anyone know where to find the report that was done on the opening of P&M? I'd love to take a look at it. The only issue I've found with many of these types of reports is they don't typically do a good job of explaining the true economic impact of a project. Granted trying to pin something like that down is a hugely complex task to undertake as predicting long term economic benefits/down falls are often not accurately quantifiable until after the fact.

I think it was a big mistake to open this decision up to the people, the majority of who don't actually use the intersection. Though I lean more to the keep it closed side, I am pretty confident that this will stay closed now that they put it to a referendum. Generally the people who don't want things changed are older groups of people. Those are the people who vote in record numbers. The young people who want it open won't show up to the polls to make their desires known. In the end it will be their own fault.

Exactly. There's about 100,000 people who live/work/study downtown – the people who are most directly affected, and secondly it is an amenity to tourists and occasional Winnipeg visitors as well. And the cost is low. If we use the same logic here on other much larger infrastructure projects, the whole city would be voting on the $500m Kenaston project that only affects 10% of the population – everything would get voted down.

If we're going to vote on infrastructure projects, the catchment areas should vote yes or no before going to council. –But we just shouldn't be voting at all.

The thing to remember here is that this vote is not binding whatsoever, Bowman wants it open and wants to win one more election, so he could turn around and do it regardless of the vote, because I don't know if he'd be interested in running for a third term anyway... even though he won the election by a landslide with opening it as one of his points lol.

You can find all the info here on the right side, including traffic stidy: https://winnipeg.ca/Interhom/PortageMain/default.stm

[The Unknown Poster]

The only partly reasonable argument against it is traffic congestion. The safety and money arguments simply dont fly.

And I think logic and the balance of the greater good beats up the traffic issue too.

If everyone directly impacted by the two minute increase in their commute for that one hour, twice a day during the week voted against it and everyone else voted for it, the result would be to re-open. But it sounds like a lot of hysteria, to be honest, from people will no real reason to want it closed buying into the "chaos and carnage" nonsense.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by Hecate

And nobody thinks portage and main will become Times Square overnight. But the point is that in a city of millions like New York nobody is preventing pedestrians from crossing a major intersection... and getting back to confusion corner there’s a bloody bus loop in the middle of that intersection. Where are the people bitching about safety there. The half assed excuses people are spewing to keep this intersection closed are lame and uneducated.

You’re certain that there is no intersection in New York that prohibits pedestrian crossings? I can think of one a couple of blocks from me in Toronto that does, complete with the requirement to go underground. It can’t be all that unusual. It’s just that P&M is a unique place. I agree the existing barriers are unattractive. Maybe it could be opened up at non peak hours and only on a much reduced frequency at rush hour (or not at all). If they could build some sort of gate system that would allow for that sort of compromise, it could work.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by The Unknown Poster

The only partly reasonable argument against it is traffic congestion. The safety and money arguments simply dont fly.

And I think logic and the balance of the greater good beats up the traffic issue too.

If everyone directly impacted by the two minute increase in their commute for that one hour, twice a day during the week voted against it and everyone else voted for it, the result would be to re-open. But it sounds like a lot of hysteria, to be honest, from people will no real reason to want it closed buying into the "chaos and carnage" nonsense.

I don’t see how you couldn’t see a legitimate safety issue there. Clearly there is one. And obviously it will cost money for a benefit that some people quite legitimately see as of questionable value. Moreover, a two minute delay multiplied across hundreds of thousands of trips is a lot of delay.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by The Jabroni

the sad part is, Bowman agreed to a plebiscite to be on the ballot.

At least there will be a clear, actionable direction to not just whomever is mayor after the election but all of council.

It is now on the vocal group that want Portage and Main open to pedestrians to get out there, make there case to the masses, and ensure they get out and vote.

End of the day this will come down to which side does a better job getting its vote out.

[TimeFadesAway]

Originally Posted by CoryB

At least there will be a clear, actionable direction to not just whomever is mayor after the election but all of council.

It is now on the vocal group that want Portage and Main open to pedestrians to get out there, make there case to the masses, and ensure they get out and vote.

End of the day this will come down to which side does a better job getting its vote out.

I'm hoping that they put the Chief Peguis extension to a vote.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by TimeFadesAway

I'm hoping that they put the Chief Peguis extension to a vote.

Or Kenaston widening
Or Bill Clement extension
Or Sterling Lyon realignment

Funny how those projects don't get the plebiscite treatment.

Oh wait, I know the reason. It's because Bowman is soft and weak like a marshmallow. TBH I'd sooner vote for Motkaluk than for that schmuck again. At least she demonstrates some leadership ability.

[The Unknown Poster]

Originally Posted by Andy6

I don’t see how you couldn’t see a legitimate safety issue there. Clearly there is one. And obviously it will cost money for a benefit that some people quite legitimately see as of questionable value. Moreover, a two minute delay multiplied across hundreds of thousands of trips is a lot of delay.

Whats the safety issue? Pedestrians crossing streets is a routine thing. The safety issue is no different than any other busy crossing. Any suggestion there will be kaos and carnage and blood flooding the streets is hysteria. Besides, if it will cause gridlock, then it wont be too unsafe since no one will be driving at speeds higher than a brisk walk. lol