Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

^^Interestingly in France the Canadian mounted police is never associated with Québec. I don't even know if they exist in Québec (do they?). People have the mounted police in mind when thinking of Anglo-Canada, but never when thinking of Québec.

That's for Francophone Europe. In non-Francophone Europe, I believe they think of the mounted police when thinking about Canada in general, I don't think they make a distinction in the case of Québec.

[FrAnKs]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

^^Interestingly in France the Canadian mounted police is never associated with Québec. I don't even know it they exist in Québec (do they?). People have the mounted police in mind when thinking of Anglo-Canada, but never when thinking of Québec.

That's for Francophone Europe. In non-Francophone Europe, I believe they think of the mounted police when thinking about Canada in general, I don't think they make a distinction in the case of Québec.

Moi la Police montée me fait surtout penser à Ottawa plus précisément, je ne sais pas pourquoi. Sinon, je crois pas en avoir vu au Québec et à Québec du plus loin que je me rappelle...

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

^^Interestingly in France the Canadian mounted police is never associated with Québec. I don't even know if they exist in Québec (do they?). People have the mounted police in mind when thinking of Anglo-Canada, but never when thinking of Québec.

That's for Francophone Europe. In non-Francophone Europe, I believe they think of the mounted police when thinking about Canada in general, I don't think they make a distinction in the case of Québec.

The historic mounted police were a western thing. Modern Canada has RCMP outside of cities as something like Gendarmerie. Quebec and Ontario have their own provincial forces that do this. The mounted police are also the federal FBI style police and this function also exists in Quebec.

[harls]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

The historic mounted police were a western thing. Modern Canada has RCMP outside of cities as something like Gendarmerie. Quebec and Ontario have their own provincial forces that do this. The mounted police are also the federal FBI style police and this function also exists in Quebec.

RCMP are everywhere in rural Western Canada. They cover a huge territory for a miniscule population.

I hear Alberta wants their own version of the OPP. I am not sure if they are at that threshold yet.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

The historic mounted police were a western thing. Modern Canada has RCMP outside of cities as something like Gendarmerie. Quebec and Ontario have their own provincial forces that do this. The mounted police are also the federal FBI style police and this function also exists in Quebec.

Interestingly, back when Canada was French, the gendarmerie was called "maréchaussée" (marshalcy in English). As with many French institutions, it was disbanded during the French Revolution, then recreated by Napoleon but with a new name, so the "maréchaussée" became the "gendarmerie" (just as the "lieutenance de police" of Paris became the "préfecture de police", or the "intendants" in the provinces became the "préfets", or the "gardes pompes" of Paris became the "sapeurs-pompiers", aka "firefighters" in English, etc).

"Gendarmerie" is another example where the Québecois opted for choosing the new French name used in France (but which had never been used in French Canada), instead of using the old name, this in order to keep closer to modern France in terms of vocabulary.

One question for the Québecois here: is "maréchaussée" still used colloquially in Québec or known at all? In France, as with many things from before the French Revolution, the name "maréchaussée" kept being used colloquially long after it was replaced by the term "gendarmerie". It was still used in the late 20th century jokingly to refer to the gendarmes ("tiens, v'là la maréchaussée!" when you saw some gendarmes setting a speed camera trap), but I have a feeling in this early 21st century the term "maréchaussée" is on the verge of extinction...

Another one that remained long after the French Revolution was "sou". In pre-1795 France, 1 livre (£) was equal to 20 sous (s), and each sou was equal to 12 deniers (d). Same as in England (1 pound = 20 shillings, 1 shilling = 12 pennies). Even after the French franc replaced the old £sd system in 1795, the French kept counting in "sous". That why the 5 franc silver coin (which had replaced the "écu d'argent" used before the French Revolution, and which was similar to the British coin called a "crown" and the Mexican/US coin called... dollar!) was still colloquially called the "pièce de 100 sous" in the early 20th century. I don't think the term "sou" was used in Québec however, was it?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

^^Interestingly in France the Canadian mounted police is never associated with Québec. I don't even know if they exist in Québec (do they?). People have the mounted police in mind when thinking of Anglo-Canada, but never when thinking of Québec.

That's for Francophone Europe. In non-Francophone Europe, I believe they think of the mounted police when thinking about Canada in general, I don't think they make a distinction in the case of Québec.

They are present in all provinces.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Interestingly, back when Canada was French, the gendarmerie was called "maréchaussée" (marshalcy in English). As with many French institutions, it was disbanded during the French Revolution, then recreated by Napoleon but with a new name, so the "maréchaussée" became the "gendarmerie" (just as the "lieutenance de police" of Paris became the "préfecture de police", or the "intendants" in the provinces became the "préfets", or the "gardes pompes" of Paris became the "sapeurs-pompiers", aka "firefighters" in English, etc).

"Gendarmerie" is another example where the Québecois opted for choosing the new French name used in France (but which had never been used in French Canada), instead of using the old name, this in order to keep closer to modern France in terms of vocabulary.

One question for the Québecois here: is "maréchaussée" still used colloquially in Québec or known at all? In France, as with many things from before the French Revolution, the name "maréchaussée" kept being used colloquially long after it was replaced by the term "gendarmerie". It was still used in the late 20th century jokingly to refer to the gendarmes ("tiens, v'là la maréchaussée!" when you saw some gendarmes setting a speed camera trap), but I have a feeling in this early 21st century the term "maréchaussée" is on the verge of extinction...

Another one that remained long after the French Revolution was "sou". In pre-1795 France, 1 livre (£) was equal to 20 sous (s), and each sou was equal to 12 deniers (d). Same as in England (1 pound = 20 shillings, 1 shilling = 12 pennies). Even after the French franc replaced the old £sd system in 1795, the French kept counting in "sous". That why the 5 franc silver coin (which had replaced the "écu d'argent" used before the French Revolution, and which was similar to the British coin called a "crown" and the Mexican/US coin called... dollar!) was still colloquially called the "pièce de 100 sous" in the early 20th century. I don't think the term "sou" was used in Québec however, was it?

Quebec French for a "penny", n'est-ce pas?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by harls

RCMP are everywhere in rural Western Canada. They cover a huge territory for a miniscule population.

I hear Alberta wants their own version of the OPP. I am not sure if they are at that threshold yet.

I'm not sure it's a threshold thing. More of a matter of are you willing to pay a lot more for less in order to have more control. Generally only Quebec and sometimes Ontario make that trade-off.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Quebec French for a "penny", n'est-ce pas?

Wiktionary says it was used in French Canada (post-Conquest) to refer to 1/120th of a dollar, i.e. half a penny according to them (which is weird because in the £sd system 1 penny was 1/240th of a pound, so 1/120th would have been 2 pennies...). They also say it's only still used in that sense in the expression "30 sous" (never used in France), but their explanation is again very strange: they say that's because 25 sous (shillings) in the English £sd system was equal to 30 sous in the French £sd system, so when they switched from one system to the other after 1760, the French Canadians kept calling the 25 cents coin a "30 sous" coin, but again this doesn't make sense to me, because 25 s in the English £sd system was NOT equal to 30 s in the French £sd system at all (the sterling pound was worth considerably more than the French pound, so 25 s in the English £sd system would have been something like 27 £ 5 s (or 550 s) in the French £sd system).

In a nutshell, it's a bit of a mess. I think they are mixing up many things.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I'm not sure it's a threshold thing. More of a matter of are you willing to pay a lot more for less in order to have more control. Generally only Quebec and sometimes Ontario make that trade-off.

"Sometimes Ontario"? Can you say OPP?

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Wiktionary says it was used in French Canada (post-Conquest) to refer to 1/120th of a dollar, i.e. half a penny according to them (which is weird because in the £sd system 1 penny was 1/240th of a pound, so 1/120th would have been 2 pennies...). They also say it's only still used in that sense in the expression "30 sous" (never used in France), but their explanation is again very strange: they say that's because 25 sous (shillings) in the English £sd system was equal to 30 sous in the French £sd system, so when they switched from one system to the other after 1760, the French Canadians kept calling the 25 cents coin a "30 sous" coin, but again this doesn't make sense to me, because 25 s in the English £sd system was NOT equal to 30 s in the French £sd system at all (the sterling pound was worth considerably more than the French pound, so 25 s in the English £sd system would have been something like 27 £ 5 s (or 550 s) in the French £sd system).

In a nutshell, it's a bit of a mess. I think they are mixing up many things.

Une piasse = 100 sous. C'est pas compliqué!

[harls]

Been here since 2001 and I knew what 'sou' or 'sous' meant within a week.

Man, imagine living here and living it instead of pretending to know it.

[Kilgore Trout]

Also, regarding the RCMP: they certainly exist in Quebec, they are the federal police. But here they only deal with federal issues like interprovincial crimes and border issues. You don't see generally see them around, although I was intercepted by them once when I drove to one of the spots where the US-Canada border is basically just a suburban cul-de-sac, specifically this odd place:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/GfnotTzxEQMuCtbR9

The officers were Black and francophone, if anyone is wondering. Probably not the norm for the RCMP in most of Canada.

[New Brisavoine]

Ah! Thinking about it, I think I know why "30 sous" refers to the 25 cent coin in Québec! It has nothing to do with the English £sd system.

The reason is this (Wiktionary totally clueless here): like I've said in a previous post, the "écu d'argent" (main silver coin used in the Kingdom of France) was replaced after the French Revolution by the 5 franc silver coin (itself the basis of the Latin Union, so all the 5-pesos, 5-Belgian franc, 5 Swiss franc, 5 Greek drachma, 5 Italian lira, etc silver coins used by all the member countries of the Latin Union were based exactly on the 5 French franc silver coin, itself based on the ancient "écu d'argent").

This écu was worth 6 French £, i.e. 120 sous (but due to currency appreciation it was converted into 5 francs in 1795).

This écu d'argent coin (later 5 franc coin of the Latin union) was equivalent to the silver dollar of Mexico, which became the basis of the US dollar. Before the French Revolution, 1 French écu d'argent was essentially converted for 1 Mexican dollar. In the 19th century and until 1914, 5 franc/lira/drachma/peseta/etc silver coin = 1 silver US dollar.

When the US (and then Canada) adopted decimalization in the 19th century, naturally 25 cents was 1/4 of a dollar, i.e. 1/4 of the old French écu d'argent, therefore 1/4 of 120 sous in the old French £sd system, i.e. 30 sous. And, voilà! That's where the "30 sous" comes from.

What's fascinating is there was no "30 sous" coin in ancient France (there was the écu coin which was worth 120 sous, and the 1/2 écu coin which was worth 60 sous), but apparently people in French Canada were so used to it that a quarter of a silver dollar was naturally worth "30 sous" to them (i.e. a quarter of an old silver écu).

That's the écu d'argent that was the main French silver coin at the time of British conquest:



And that's the 5 franc silver coin that replaced it in 1795 ("L'an 4" = Year 4 of the Republic, i.e. 1795):



Itself the basis of all the 5 franc/lira/drachma/pesetas/etc silver coins of the Latin Union (a union that the UK and its empire refused to join):



And the quarter silver dollar, similar to the 1/4 of an écu d'argent (hence why 30 sous in French £sd = 25 cents in decimalized dollar system):

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

"Sometimes Ontario"? Can you say OPP?

I was speaking more generally. QPP, Revenu Quebec are only Quebec things. I don't know why the RCMP didn't replace the OPP when as they did for the other provincial police. Size does matter.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Une piasse = 100 sous. C'est pas compliqué!

Which is itself funny, because when currencies were decimalized, in the UK it is the d in £sd that was used as the name of the 1/100th of the currency (i.e. the penny, which is the d in the British £sd system). A shilling was 1/20th of a pound, whereas a penny was 1/240th of a pound, so I suppose they thought it was more proper to call the 1/100th unit of the decimalized pound a "penny" rather than a shilling which would have be too "big" a unit for a 1/100th of the pound.

But look at Québec. To follow the Anglophones they should have called the 1/100th of the Canadian dollar a "denier" (which is the French name of the d in the £sd system) when the dollar was decimalized. Denier (in French) = penny (in English).

But the fact that they preferred to call it "sou" ("shilling") in the colloquial language is because they based their appraisal of the 1/100th of the dollar on the old French £sd system, and not on the British £sd system. As explained in my previous post, a silver dollar was as a silver écu in France, i.e. 6 French £, or 120 sous. So there were 120 French sous in 1 silver dollar. It was therefore logical to call the 1/100th of a decimalized dollar a "sou" and not a "denier" (which would have been 1/1440th of a dollar in the old French £sd system).

This from a unit of account that hasn't been legal tender in Canada since 1760! It shows how things can linger in the mind of people...

[harls]

'Sou' just means 'change', if you really want to get into it.

[New Brisavoine]

^^Thanks for teaching me my native language.

But before meaning "change", it had a precise meaning, the 20th part of the livre (pound), from Latin 'solidus' (a Roman coin), "sol" in formal French, and "sou" in colloquial French. And obviously it is from this precise meaning in the £sd system that comes the expression "30 sous" used in Québec, and also the colloquial choice of "sou" for the 100th of the dollar instead of "denier". "Denier" was also colloquially used for "change" long ago, and still exists in a few old expressions, like "ne pas avoir un denier vaillant", and of course for the "denier du culte" today, and "les deniers publics" (which the ruling party is always accused of squandering).

[harls]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

^^Thanks for teaching me my native language.

No problem.

Thanks for teaching me about Canada from your vineyard in France.

[Acajack]

C'est quatre trente sous pour une piasse = c'est du pareil au même

(Six and one-half dozen of the other)