Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[esquire]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

I don't think there's space for upgrades to make it a WHL arena.
It's a 2 side seated arena.
One end wall is about 6 feet from the wall. The other end is the entrance foyer.
The only spot for "luxury boxes" could be where the upper concourse (seen above the Frank Carne arena sign in the image below) where they sell beer. But a lot of people like to stand there and drink looking down on the game.
The roof is also a bit too low to get any luxury boxes on the side.

They would need a new arena and it would be a hard sell to publicly fund after they added a twin ice sheet complex in the mid 2000s with about 500-750 seat capacity.

It would need to be a new purpose built arena, they could take over the North Town center area maybe if the mall finally collapses (more than it already has).

I guess it depends how sticky the WHL is about this stuff, rumour has it they kiboshed a plan to expand the Wayne Fleming Arena in Winnipeg as a permanent home for the ICE. But it looks to me like end of the arena with the scoreboard could be extended to make way for seating there, raising the capacity and perhaps adding room for suites and whatever other hospitality elements that a WHL team would need.

With a new WHL rink probably costing the better part of $100 million these days, I think it is asking an awful lot for smaller cities and even towns to build things like that. But that said, the WHL is probably bigger than it should be so I doubt there will be any expansion or even movement of teams in the near future now that the ICE have moved to Washington.

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am a huge geography buff and map nerd, but TIL the existence of Wenatchee.

I know it's not their fault but I will be forever miffed that they took my hockey team ... no vacations to Wenatchee!!!!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

I guess it depends how sticky the WHL is about this stuff, rumour has it they kiboshed a plan to expand the Wayne Fleming Arena in Winnipeg as a permanent home for the ICE. But it looks to me like end of the arena with the scoreboard could be extended to make way for seating there, raising the capacity and perhaps adding room for suites and whatever other hospitality elements that a WHL team would need.

With a new WHL rink probably costing the better part of $100 million these days, I think it is asking an awful lot for smaller cities and even towns to build things like that. But that said, the WHL is probably bigger than it should be so I doubt there will be any expansion or even movement of teams in the near future now that the ICE have moved to Washington.



I know it's not their fault but I will be forever miffed that they took my hockey team ... no vacations to Wenatchee!!!!

I immediately thought of you!

[Oilkountry]

Looks like those cheapskates in Vancouver are finally upgrading rogers arena. New scoreboard and LED ring. Also added a new club section with some wider seats, but they still haven't committed to changing the puke red seats.

All I can say is about damn time. That scoreboard was put in 2006 its absolutely ridiculous that those fans are paying some of the highest ticket prices in the league while sitting in the same seats the building was opened with in the mid 90's, looking at 480P display released before smartphones were a thing.

But shoutout to them finally removing the puke green stairs!

[J.OT13]

Is that narrow black strip of seats the new Club section? Is that it?

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Looks like those cheapskates in Vancouver are finally upgrading rogers arena. New scoreboard and LED ring. Also added a new club section with some wider seats, but they still haven't committed to changing the puke red seats.

All I can say is about damn time. That scoreboard was put in 2006 its absolutely ridiculous that those fans are paying some of the highest ticket prices in the league while sitting in the same seats the building was opened with in the mid 90's, looking at 480P display released before smartphones were a thing.

But shoutout to them finally removing the puke green stairs!

Say what you will about the late Eugene Melnyk, he invested significantly in the arena out in Kanata, even when he was working on a new Downtown arena.

A new ScoreBoard was put in 2013, replacing the one from 1996. In 2014, they added Club Bell seats, which takes up a significant portion of the lower bowl. In 2016, they added the Molson Canadian Fan Deck. I 2018 they added The Loft

Here's a good breakdown of some of the upgrades over the years.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/evolu...ft-chris-atack

And image of the bowl, where you can see all the different premium sections with seats coloured differently from the original faded dark red 1996 seats.


https://seatgeek.com/venues/canadian...ws/section-328

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Is that narrow black strip of seats the new Club section? Is that it?

You know i thought that too at first but, it looks like they are adding rows right down to the boards, Looks like 8 rows in total. Maybe they were just doing a test fit on the first 4 because structural changes were needed for the rest. They took away the centre tunnel behind the benches and added 1 on each side as you can see in the missing scoreboard pic, I'm assuming they are doing the player walk out view type club like in Edmonton. Which brings me to....dressing room? player facilities? Are they finally catching on that arena condition is key to season ticket holder and player retention?

I think the canucks have just had such a long and easy run on selling tickets they didn't feel the need to upgrade the building. I also read that they have changed their minds on the blue seats and are going black which is a sound decision. Black seats are becoming the standard in arenas which is boring but the baby blue they were testing last season would have looked so cheesy in an already messy looking building. Again I cannot express how happy i am that they scrubbed the blue and green paint off those stairs. Big W! Rogers arena needed a facelift I'm bumbed they aren't doing the seats this year (they may be just waiting for concerts to wrap up) but at least Vancouver will have a decent and modern looking arena for the first time in 15 years.

Say what you will about the late Eugene Melnyk, he invested significantly in the arena out in Kanata, even when he was working on a new Downtown arena.

A new ScoreBoard was put in 2013, replacing the one from 1996. In 2014, they added Club Bell seats, which takes up a significant portion of the lower bowl. In 2016, they added the Molson Canadian Fan Deck. I 2018 they added The Loft

My Friend, You and I have a different view on the definition of significant. True North has invested Significant at 80-100M over 12 years into Canada life. The scoreboard at Canadian tire was installed in the 2010-2011 season, It's already coming up on replacement, although still viable the thing is 12-13 years old which in comparison to the technology and size standards of todays NHL, It's the betty white of jumbotrons, Does it make sense to replace it? Not at all, same goes for Calgary which is why they are getting a pass on my verbal thrashing.

As for the rest, Most of that was in an effort to lower seating capacity and drive revenue as Canadian tire centre was essentially endless general seating coupled by an overreaching supply of unoccupied luxury suites, To me that doesn't count and upgrades as its just direct pocket money for the owners. Sure 1500 fans get a better experience for 20k a pop, But the rest of the 19,000 get the shaft.

Changing seats, scoreboards and LED's, upgrading concourses, Sound systems and bowl lighting is a direct loss to the club, they gain almost no net benefit but they do it to give the fans what they deserve.

Winnipeg, Toronto and Edmonton (in my opinion) are the only ones that do this effectively. Montreal has lacked in this department as well. Not nearly to the extent of Vancouver, But lets be real The Habs and leaf fans should be watching hockey in the Cadillac of arenas. Tip top finish in ever corner, The best of the best. These are top 10 earning teams and these barns have paid themselves off many times. A complete renovation at 100M every 10 years is a fraction of the naming rights deals and a hell of a lot better on the wallet than replacement which by 2025 will top a billion even on the frugal side

[thurmas]

My favorite arena these days is Little Caesars in Deetroit it just feels like hockey and top notch in everyway.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by thurmas

My favorite arena these days is Little Caesars in Deetroit it just feels like hockey and top notch in everyway.

I would say rogers place followed by little Caesars. They are both great compared to other newer buildings like Climate pledge in Seattle, T-mobile in Vegas and the god awful UBS arena in New York, You can really appreciate how much Rogers Place stands above the crowd, It was built with hockey in mind, Open concourses on every level, Dedicated loge and suite levels, A unique spin on club seating with the tower behind the net, the foresight on its design is so far apart on any modern arena in the league, its almost silly that it hasn't been replicated with 4 new arenas entering the league post 2016

Side note though, Little Caesars does look less special with the black seats, I think the red was so Intimidating and with some color filters it makes that building look menacing, The black really took the sting away, You start to see how plain the bowl really is. However the facade is my favorite in the league.

[J.OT13]

Climate pledge has really cool features like the huge windows that visually connect the arena bowl and outside, along with the double jumbotrons. I agree with Vegas and its kitch ULTA modern look and UBS being extremely plain.

[esquire]

The newer breed of arenas doesn't really add much if any seating capacity over the previous generations, but the interior volumes look absolutely colossal. Little Caesars looks very large on the inside. I remember setting foot in Bell Centre when it opened in the spring of 96 and it looked massive to my eyes, I'm sure it's been surpassed by the likes of Rogers Place, Little Caesars, et al since then.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by esquire

The newer breed of arenas doesn't really add much if any seating capacity over the previous generations, but the interior volumes look absolutely colossal. Little Caesars looks very large on the inside. I remember setting foot in Bell Centre when it opened in the spring of 96 and it looked massive to my eyes, I'm sure it's been surpassed by the likes of Rogers Place, Little Caesars, et al since then.

It's funny you say that. Bell centre really doesn't look all that big anymore, I can imagine going from rexall place or winnipeg arena to that cathedral of hockey was slightly mind blowing. In terms of ceiling height its probably similar within 20 feet or so to rogers place their is just no dead space in Bell. Its floor to ceiling seats

[thewave46]

I am mostly wondering if there’s a bad venue in the NHL these days, fiasco in AZ notwithstanding. Not so much location (Ottawa’s rink in Kanata sucks location-wise), but in terms of actual experience.

Other sports have a couple of venues that just blow it out of the park or are terrible (Wrigley Field versus Tropicana Dome) but most NHL rinks strike me as very homogeneous in terms of experience in my admittedly limited experience.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by thewave46

I am mostly wondering if there’s a bad venue in the NHL these days, fiasco in AZ notwithstanding. Not so much location (Ottawa’s rink in Kanata sucks location-wise), but in terms of actual experience.

Other sports have a couple of venues that just blow it out of the park or are terrible (Wrigley Field versus Tropicana Dome) but most NHL rinks strike me as very homogeneous in terms of experience in my admittedly limited experience.

It's tough to say, What I can definitely attest to is that the experience at Rexall place wasn't even comparable to Rogers place. You almost get goose bumps walking into that arena the music is so loud coming up the escalator and seeing that scoreboard from the concourses. You're not shoulder to shoulder trying to get a drink or using the washrooms.

The experience at saddledome or rogers arena doesn't even slightly compare and missing 4 minutes of the 2nd period just to take a leak could ruin your outlook on things, However that doesn't mean the flames/canucks fans are having a bad night at a game but A new arena could certainly help that night.

I guess my answer would be. Bad experience? Maybe, Underwhelming experience? Probably. And for about 10 teams in the league...Absolutley

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

My Friend, You and I have a different view on the definition of significant. True North has invested Significant at 80-100M over 12 years into Canada life. The scoreboard at Canadian tire was installed in the 2010-2011 season, It's already coming up on replacement, although still viable the thing is 12-13 years old which in comparison to the technology and size standards of todays NHL, It's the betty white of jumbotrons, Does it make sense to replace it? Not at all, same goes for Calgary which is why they are getting a pass on my verbal thrashing.

As for the rest, Most of that was in an effort to lower seating capacity and drive revenue as Canadian tire centre was essentially endless general seating coupled by an overreaching supply of unoccupied luxury suites, To me that doesn't count and upgrades as its just direct pocket money for the owners. Sure 1500 fans get a better experience for 20k a pop, But the rest of the 19,000 get the shaft.

Changing seats, scoreboards and LED's, upgrading concourses, Sound systems and bowl lighting is a direct loss to the club, they gain almost no net benefit but they do it to give the fans what they deserve.

Winnipeg, Toronto and Edmonton (in my opinion) are the only ones that do this effectively. Montreal has lacked in this department as well. Not nearly to the extent of Vancouver, But lets be real The Habs and leaf fans should be watching hockey in the Cadillac of arenas. Tip top finish in ever corner, The best of the best. These are top 10 earning teams and these barns have paid themselves off many times. A complete renovation at 100M every 10 years is a fraction of the naming rights deals and a hell of a lot better on the wallet than replacement which by 2025 will top a billion even on the frugal side

Don't know exactly how much money was invested in the CTC over the last decade and a bit, but I'm sure it was around $50 million, at least. And of course, the idea was reducing seating capacity and incorporating something between corporate suites and basic seats due in no small part to the Ottawa market being largely Federal Public Service with a low corporate presence. Sure, not all investments benefited all the fans, but they still helped modernize the building.

In Winnipeg, the upgrades were probably brought on because the arena was not fully designed to host the NHL, so they were needed to bring it up to par with other buildings. As time went on, more upgrades were done based on what was leaned over the years. But yes, I'm sure they've gone beyond the basics.

Unrelated to the conversation above, Bell Centre's massive and steep lower bowl is quite something. Not something you see very often. Seems it really was about cramming as many seats in there as possible.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Centre

[WhipperSnapper]

Baseball is played under a roof or open sky; on turf or grass; custom field dimensions; dirt is graded to team's preference. Hockey should appear homogeneous to baseball.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Don't know exactly how much money was invested in the CTC over the last decade and a bit, but I'm sure it was around $50 million, at least.

I'm sorry but 50 Million just seems like an over reach. 50 Million in wpg (true north 20/20) got you new seats, full high end concourse renos, structural changes to the 300 level concourse that included 3 new bars that were open air space, full suite renovations, 400 loge seats which included structural changes, sound and lighting system, Scoreboard and led rings, full seamless glass railing replacement, team store, ticket booth and im sure im missing more. 50 million transformed an entire building and turned it into one of the highest end fit and finished buildings in the league.

I'm not sure how 2000ish slightly wider seats and few retrofitted suites could possibly come close to 50M because that's literally the only work done in 14 years. Club bell addition a few years ago, which included parking and security upgrades with a tsn broadcast desk was only 15 Million. The building is essentially the same as it was in 1995. either than a few wider seats and a bigger scoreboard. I would be willing to bet that building has seen under 30M in renos since its debut let alone the last decade

[Oilkountry]

Speaking of 50 million, looks like the plan in Hamilton for first ontario has been significantly downgraded. The promise to the city is now to sink at least 50 million into the lower bowl, 10 million into the convention centre and 2 million into a concert hall and art gallery. In return they pay $1 rent each calendar year for 49 years. Talk about a sweetheart deal.

What happened to the complete renovation with the beautiful exterior?

https://www.chch.com/details-of-firs...tion-revealed/

[bridgeoftea]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Looks like those cheapskates in Vancouver are finally upgrading rogers arena. New scoreboard and LED ring. Also added a new club section with some wider seats, but they still haven't committed to changing the puke red seats.

All I can say is about damn time. That scoreboard was put in 2006 its absolutely ridiculous that those fans are paying some of the highest ticket prices in the league while sitting in the same seats the building was opened with in the mid 90's, looking at 480P display released before smartphones were a thing.

But shoutout to them finally removing the puke green stairs!

The green stairs that were originally painted for the 2010 Olympics!

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Speaking of 50 million, looks like the plan in Hamilton for first ontario has been significantly downgraded. The promise to the city is now to sink at least 50 million into the lower bowl, 10 million into the convention centre and 2 million into a concert hall and art gallery. In return they pay $1 rent each calendar year for 49 years. Talk about a sweetheart deal.

What happened to the complete renovation with the beautiful exterior?

https://www.chch.com/details-of-firs...tion-revealed/

Interest rates? Did the project not get a related approval of some sort?

And sweetheart deal? Right now the facilities have a yearly subsidy from taxpayers and this deal ends that.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Speaking of 50 million, looks like the plan in Hamilton for first ontario has been significantly downgraded. The promise to the city is now to sink at least 50 million into the lower bowl, 10 million into the convention centre and 2 million into a concert hall and art gallery. In return they pay $1 rent each calendar year for 49 years. Talk about a sweetheart deal.

What happened to the complete renovation with the beautiful exterior?

https://www.chch.com/details-of-firs...tion-revealed/

Which design will be the one built? I assume the second one, which somehow looks worse than the current design.

Reading the article, it sounds like Hamilton Urban Precinct Entertainment Group, the private consortium, is putting in that money, so how much is Hamilton paying for these renos?

[Hawrylyshyn]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Which design will be the one built? I assume the second one, which somehow looks worse than the current design.

Reading the article, it sounds like Hamilton Urban Precinct Entertainment Group, the private consortium, is putting in that money, so how much is Hamilton paying for these renos?

Those are pervious iterations, I don't think a final iteration/decision has been released. As far as I know, the city won't be paying for paying for renos or upkeep.

Oak View Group (developer of Seattle Kraken arena, amongst others ) is also head of this project so I'm not too worried.

.S. venue group OVG heads up Hamilton arena renovation in first Canadian project