Portage Place Shopping Centre

[Tacheguy]

I think this building is a placeholder until the Jets need a new arena. Hard to imagine a better location. Might be 20 years off though.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Tacheguy

I think this building is a placeholder until the Jets need a new arena. Hard to imagine a better location. Might be 20 years off though.

I could see that being Portage Place's destiny... by that point it will be old and likely in dilapidated shape (returns probably don't really justify much in the way of maintenance expenditures), and the Jets might potentially be shopping around for a new arena site. FNP basically has the land assembled for a new rink.

Although that said, I honestly wonder how realistic the prospect of a new arena would be around that time? Unlike the old arena the MTS Centre doesn't really lack premium seating and other revenue generating gewgaws, and I don't think Winnipeg could really handle much more of that.

[Roger Strong]

As I understand it, there's a podium for a tower already in place a either end of Portage Place.

The tower finally being built on the existing podium at Winnipeg Square gives me hope that the same will happen at Portage Place. With the theatre closed down, building a tower on the east end wouldn't be as disruptive.

[esquire]

^ Good point... considering that towers have been built nearby in recent years (Manitoba Hydro, Alt, Glasshouse, True North Square 1-4, possibly soon the Bradbury project), it does seem plausible that something could get built on the pads atop of Portage Place.

Perhaps Portage Place will simply continue to evolve in a direction where retail becomes less prominent and it becomes more of an office building with new office/condo/apartment or hotel towers built on top of either end?

[drew]

Originally Posted by Roger Strong

As I understand it, there's a podium for a tower already in place a either end of Portage Place.

The tower finally being built on the existing podium at Winnipeg Square gives me hope that the same will happen at Portage Place. With the theatre closed down, building a tower on the east end wouldn't be as disruptive.

As I understand it, there has been in the past, somewhat serious interest in developing those pad sites, but for whatever reason it's never gone beyond the proposal stage, and its happened several times over the years.

I agree that 300 Main might be the push these pad sites need to get going. Once someone sees how (hopefully) a successful similar project takes shape.

[Authentic_City]

Originally Posted by drew

As I understand it, there has been in the past, somewhat serious interest in developing those pad sites, but for whatever reason it's never gone beyond the proposal stage, and its happened several times over the years.

I agree that 300 Main might be the push these pad sites need to get going. Once someone sees how (hopefully) a successful similar project takes shape.

Well, it took ~38 years for the unused pad site at 300 Main to be finally put to use. Maybe in another 8 or so years, Portage Place might see some action on those pad sites?

[Tacheguy]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

Well, it took ~38 years for the unused pad site at 300 Main to be finally put to use. Maybe in another 8 or so years, Portage Place might see some action on those pad sites?

I think ownership of the underground parking is an issue in developing those towers. should be a way around it though.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Tacheguy

I think this building is a placeholder until the Jets need a new arena. Hard to imagine a better location. Might be 20 years off though.

Not an expert on sizing building but I think if you picked up MTS Centre and dropped in on top of Portage Place as a reference for sizing you would see it is too small a site. The Hudson Bay building, always in search of a tenant, seems to be a much more likely site for a future downtown Bell Palace 2.0.

--

In terms of the pad sites at Portage Place, I think there are specific hold backs in spacing for them. I know of the far west end facing onto Vaughan there were some doors that didn't really lead to anything. Sometime back the Downtown Biz was essentially using the vacant space as a garage for their cleaning crews. I think that space was actually held back as the lobby for the originally planned hotel on the west pad.

Not sure where exactly the hold backs on the east side might be but I would suspect they would be behind the Tim Hortons and face onto Carlton. The east pad of course was one of the sites presented to the public as a candidate site for the Hydro tower.

[Authentic_City]

Originally Posted by Tacheguy

I think ownership of the underground parking is an issue in developing those towers. should be a way around it though.

Good point, I think that was discussed in the local media as a sticking point the last time this came up. Shouldn't be impossible to work around. Maybe FNP needs to decide if they want development on those pads, or a steady stream of revenue from the parking?

[TimeFadesAway]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

Good point, I think that was discussed in the local media as a sticking point the last time this came up. Shouldn't be impossible to work around. Maybe FNP needs to decide if they want development on those pads, or a steady stream of revenue from the parking?

In discussions of this issue either here or in the media (I can't remember which), it appears that FNP is still dependent on the profits from the parking in order to break even. Part of the motivation of the continual expansion at the Forks is to break this dependence so that the PP parking can be sold. This would make development of the east pad site much more likely.

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

Good point, I think that was discussed in the local media as a sticking point the last time this came up. Shouldn't be impossible to work around. Maybe FNP needs to decide if they want development on those pads, or a steady stream of revenue from the parking?

I think they've made that decision, and its the stream of revenue from parking. They use it to offset losses from the Forks proper.


Article on the interest in building on the pad back in 2011, and how the parkade was necessary to proceed:
https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/br...132297423.html

[CoryB]

Part of the challenge is FNP still owns/controls the parking under Portage Place but the building above ground is a different owner. That means the owner of the pad site cannot give concessions to the underground parking as part of a development. Further, with how the site is setup you also cannot add parking when you develop the pad site.

[buzzg]

TFNP has had several proposals come to them to develop on top of Portage Place. Currently TFNP owns the land PP is on, as well as the parkade - however they do not own or operate the mall. The whole reason for redeveloping the Forks Market, adding The Common, restructuring lease deals, and developing Railside (aside from just making The Forks better), is they want to be completely self-sufficient and divest their North Portage assets. ASAP.

The city has asked them to take on over complete control of all riverfront development, but they won't do it until they can completely exit North Portage - but they can't do that until the revenue generated at The Forks can offset the ~$5m/year they make in parking from FNP (they also have several surface lots in the PP area). So they'd essentially go from North Portage/Forks to Forks/Waterfront. TFNP feel (rightfully) that they've done everything they can/set out to do at North Portage, and now are holding it back from continued growth. They want out immediately.

Portage Place currently has an buyer interested in buying the mall to redevelop (likely add residential), but it's contingent on them getting the land and parkade as well. No way to make residential work there without them controlling the parkade. So in essence, as soon as the Forks Market renos are complete and Railside is under development in earnest, TFNP can sell their North Portage assets and we could see a big (positive) domino effect happen because of that.

I have divulged far too much info and will now go into hiding...

[drew]

^ you would think a well managed $25 million nest egg obtained from the sale of this parkade could be successfully used by TFMP to offset a big chunk of the annual parkade profits..?

[buzzg]

True, but they're likely waiting til they know exactly how much and when Railside will generate income so they don't take a big risk and end up down for a few years. They also have some massive capital plans coming up like finishing the Market reno, redeveloping Forks Market Road, expanding geothermal and composting capacity, and actually servicing the Railside lots.

Parcel 4/Railside North has also never had a archaeological/environmental impact study done. They will be doing a massive public dig similar to the one they did for the original Forks development as well as CMHR to allow the public to be involved, and make a bit of money as well. This should happen congruently to the Railside South development.

As well, now that Upper Fort Garry is "open" – The Forks has been tasked with maintenance, marketing, and general upkeep of the "park" – apparently the Friends never really thought that far ahead, and the city was unwilling/unable to do it when Manitoba Parks asked.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by buzzg

As well, now that Upper Fort Garry is "open" – The Forks has been tasked with maintenance, marketing, and general upkeep of the "park" – apparently the Friends never really thought that far ahead, and the city was unwilling/unable to do it when Manitoba Parks asked.

Good grief. With "friends" like that...

[buzzg]

Yup. The Friends also had "visions" of holding big events like weddings, festivals, etc... however they didn't factor that idea into the design of the park, or think at all about how it would work. As you would know if you've been there... there's very little room to set up tents or any structures, unless it's right in front of the wall. By framing all of the old buildings with planting beds, they rendered the park almost entirely unusable space. Everything about this place was ill-conceived and poorly planned.

[Tacheguy]

Originally Posted by esquire

Good grief. With "friends" like that...

this is a good thing in my opinion. linking that site to the Forks in as many ways as possible is the challenge. I think the current administration at the Forks will do the necessary integrated planning and come up with very cool ideas.

[Tacheguy]

Originally Posted by drew

^ you would think a well managed $25 million nest egg obtained from the sale of this parkade could be successfully used by TFMP to offset a big chunk of the annual parkade profits..?

As long as the three shareholders don't try to grab it. I would be a bit nervous about that.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Tacheguy

this is a good thing in my opinion. linking that site to the Forks in as many ways as possible is the challenge. I think the current administration at the Forks will do the necessary integrated planning and come up with very cool ideas.

Perhaps that will be a silver lining, but it's simply another example of the Friends sticking everyone else with the bill for their pet project.