Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

I meant started building. No one has really started building on Broadway (TBF, largely on purpose). And considering how long it takes to get towers constructed, completion in 2010-2006 means the 'speculation' phase was likely 2007-2002- the period when the Evergreen Line was an LRT project, and ended up being shelved in favor of the Canada Line.

In other words, you're making a case for developers being excited for LRT, not Skytrain.

No offense, but I'm pretty sure a bunch of random realtors aren't exactly the best source...



Though, then again, really, all either of us are just doing is speculation.

Got it. In which case, you can look at Richmond and the Canada Line (excluding OV, since there were other reasons for that), with developers trying to finish before/during/slightly after opening day. If you're willing to move the goalposts to systems other than SkyTrain, Portland decided to redevelop their downtown in stages, in tandem with streetcar construction; that's where the continent-wide fallacy about "streetcars creating density" comes from.

LRT, RRT, developers get excited for any kind of "RT" (even rapid buses sometimes). But unless you're as far out as Abby and Maple Ridge, the WCE isn't "rapid" enough to count.

Fair enough, but a 2006-2010 window still doesn't point toward commuter rail TOD. The WCE opened in '95, so that's an even slower approval process than Vancouver!

[Trainguy]

High speed rail conference convenes at Microsoft headquarters

REDMOND, Wash. — Microsoft Corp.’s corporate campus in the Seattle suburb of Redmond is miles from rail lines hosting regular passenger-train service.

But that corporate campus will be, for three days beginning today [Nov. 6], the focal point of the high-speed passenger rail universe.

The Cascadia Rail Summit convenes with U.S. High Speed Rail and Microsoft as leading co-sponsors of the event and a lengthy agenda of presentations and speakers. Former Washington Gov. Chris Gregoire, now head of the local business development group Challenge Seattle, is the luncheon keynote speaker. Current Gov. Jay Inslee is to address the gathering by video.

Other speakers include such industry executives as Alain Quinet, deputy chief executive of France’s SNCF; Armin Kick, vice president high speed rail, Siemens Mobility; and Antonio Perez, president of Talgo.

As the country’s lead advocate for development of fast passenger-rail service, U.S. High Speed Rail’s motivation for organizing the conference is obvious. The organization wants to see 220-mph trains connecting major cities, with a support network of 110 mph trains connecting smaller cities and towns.

Microsoft’s interest in the topic seems less obvious at first, but it has taken an active interest in transportation issues, including the Puget Sound region’s increasingly congested roads. It has been an active proponent of high speed rail connecting Seattle and Vancouver, B.C., (and possibly Portland, Ore.). In 2018 the company contributed $300,000 toward a preliminary feasibility study of high speed rail, and contributed another $223,000 this year.

In May 2018, Microsoft President Brad Smith listed high-speed rail as an agenda item in what he termed the Next Generation Washington agenda, policy items “we believe are critical for the future economic and social health of our state and everyone who lives here.” The software company has about 47,000 employees in the state. In a blog post, Smith noted a study indicating a high speed rail line could help create another 145,000 jobs in the region.

The Washington State Department of Transportation issued an “Ultra-High-Speed Ground Transportation Business Case Analysis” in July warning of the potential risks of road congestion and the limits of current air and rail alternatives. It estimated the cost of building a high speed rail system at $24 billion to $42 billion in 2018 dollars, less than half of the estimated $108 billion cost of adding one lane in each direction to Interstate 5 in the state. [See “Study urges ‘ultra’ high speed rail in Pacific Northwest, offers list of action items,” Trains News Wire, July 16, 2019].

With trips of less than an hour between Seattle and Portland or Seattle and Vancouver, and 21 to 30 daily round trips, the system could generate ridership of 1.7 million to 3.1 million riders annually when it opens and estimated annual revenue of between $160 million, the study says. It would also generate $355 billion in economic growth and 200,000 new jobs related to construction and ongoing operation of the service

But there are some big questions yet to be answered, such as what technology to use (conventional steel-wheel on rail or something new like maglev or hyperloop) , where lines will run, and biggest of all, the cost. The summit has a panel on the topic of financing planned, looking at such options as private rail investment, transit-oriented development and secondary revenue streams including express freight, real estate and utility co-locations.

[NetMapel]

Could the next West Coast Express stop be in Burnaby?

There was talk of including a Burnaby stop on the route around the time the train went into service 24 years ago, but nothing came of it. The thinking, Hurley said, is that the stop would be somewhere at the north end of Willingdon Avenue, near the Parkland Refinery and Confederation Park’s off-leash area.

Hurley said it would make sense for the residents of busy north Burnaby, as well as those travelling to the B.C. Institute of Technology, Simon Fraser University and Burnaby Hospital.

[cairnstone]

It would be redundant as they can already switch onto skytrain in Port Moody and Coquitlam.

[lokyin]

Not sure what you mean by it being redundant for Port Moody / Coquitlam... The point of his idea wasn't about residences in those places. I think if anything is redundant, then it's whether Lougheed corridor of skytrain already services that northwestern quadrant of Burnaby. But even then, I think his idea has merit, considering a connection to downtown/waterfront is not direct via Skytrain from the Lougheed stations, so rush-hour commuters to downtown would have a great option here (versus the 99 B-Line).

Without knowing feasibility, I commend him for at least thinking of an idea that leverages on existing infrastructure and sounds relatively low cost.

What's better is if we can finally run a Skytrain line along the entire Hastings stretch from Waterfront to Westridge-ish (replacing 99) to unlock the potential of the entire Hastings corridor to densify. But the cost of that is much more and sadly has to line up behind a few other skytrain expansion projects that take precedence.

[red-paladin]

I feel LRT is the most appropriate for Hastings.

[Migrant_Coconut]

How do you figure that? Hastings is similar to Broadway (and also goes straight into downtown), so grade separation at least until Willingdon seems necessary.

[red-paladin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

How do you figure that? Hastings is similar to Broadway (and also goes straight into downtown), so grade separation at least until Willingdon seems necessary.

I mean, you might be right.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

I feel LRT is the most appropriate for Hastings.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

How do you figure that? Hastings is similar to Broadway (and also goes straight into downtown), so grade separation at least until Willingdon seems necessary.

It seems to me that light rail would be better for Hastings, too. Less intrusive, and cheaper to build, perhaps. But about grade separation: overhead, or under street level?
The overhead pylons and guideways would (IMO) look grotesque and harsh. (Of course, aesthetics comes in a distant second when $$$ construction cost is accounted for)

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Got it. In which case, you can look at Richmond and the Canada Line (excluding OV, since there were other reasons for that), with developers trying to finish before/during/slightly after opening day. If you're willing to move the goalposts to systems other than SkyTrain, Portland decided to redevelop their downtown in stages, in tandem with streetcar construction; that's where the continent-wide fallacy about "streetcars creating density" comes from.

LRT, RRT, developers get excited for any kind of "RT" (even rapid buses sometimes). But unless you're as far out as Abby and Maple Ridge, the WCE isn't "rapid" enough to count.

Fair enough, but a 2006-2010 window still doesn't point toward commuter rail TOD. The WCE opened in '95, so that's an even slower approval process than Vancouver!

Originally Posted by cairnstone

It would be redundant as they can already switch onto skytrain in Port Moody and Coquitlam.

I meant before Skytrain- as in half a decade. Building alongside Skytrain construction is not equivalent.

WCE is faster to DT than Skytrain.

Well, Surrey didn’t do anything with Skytrain until pretty recently, either. Sometimes that sort of thing can happen, especially since demand for TOD was lower in the 90s.

Originally Posted by trofirhen

It seems to me that light rail would be better for Hastings, too. Less intrusive, and cheaper to build, perhaps. But about grade separation: overhead, or under street level?
The overhead pylons and guideways would (IMO) look grotesque and harsh. (Of course, aesthetics comes in a distant second when $$$ construction cost is accounted for)

The demand East of Boundary for the 95 collapses like a rock and becomes pretty much SFU demand. Which wouldn’t be as necessary with better WCE infrastructure.

May as well just go Skytrain and transfer near Cassiar for 95B with bus lanes.

[Migrant_Coconut]

It'd help to go at least as far as Kensington Square, for redevelopment and bus/train connectivity.

Originally Posted by fredinno

I meant before Skytrain- as in half a decade. Building alongside Skytrain construction is not equivalent.

WCE is faster to DT than Skytrain.

Well, Surrey didn’t do anything with Skytrain until pretty recently, either. Sometimes that sort of thing can happen, especially since demand for TOD was lower in the 90s.

Ah, then you probably won't find any other cases like that. Basically once the developers finally realized they could speculate like that, so did city planners and NIMBYs; Suter Brook and Newport seem to have got in right before Vancouver/Surrey shut the doors and the housing crisis kicked into high gear.

Faster once it actually shows up; if the WCE ran every 3-6 minutes all day like SkyTrain does, we definitely wouldn't be arguing about this.

Sure, but attributing the Tri-Cities' growth to commuter rail is kind of a stretch; can't believe I didn't notice it earlier, but the WCE doesn't even stop at Inlet Centre.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

How do you figure that? Hastings is similar to Broadway (and also goes straight into downtown), so grade separation at least until Willingdon seems necessary.

I think Hastings and Broadway are vastly different.

The difference is that Hastings isn't a huge employment center and has fewer residents.

The 009 travels 10km and has a catchment of 204K residents and employees. The 095 has a 17km length and passes 201K residents and employees. And that counts passing through the core of downtown and SFU for the 095. There are a lot more jobs on the 095 than the 009, but again, the 095 passes through the CBD.

If we count just residents, then the Broadway Corridor has 118,000 riders vs Hastings at 78,000, and Hastings is 7km longer.

There is already a Skytrain option just south of most of Hastings, and another line just south of that. It seems a little over redundant.

And unlike other LRT situations, where losing lanes greatly impacts congestion, I don't think anyone considers Hastings to be the best route to drive through the city as it is. If the curb lanes transformed into 24 hour dedicated LRT tracks, really no vehicle lanes would be lost.

I'm not saying it's ridiculous to put Skytrain down Hastings, but in it's current state, it seems prime for LRT. It could also serve as an LRT trunk line and have branches off it on streets like Main, Commercial, and Renfrew. Those lines could be used to increase distribution capacity around the east side to and from existing Skytrain lines.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Something I'm missing? Strathcona and Grandview I can understand, but once you hit Nanaimo, even off-peak, Hastings starts resembling the Alma-Macdonald village (same streetscape, same vehicle/pedestrian volumes), and that one definitely shouldn't have light rail either. Then there's Highway 1, Boundary and the Heights...

Hastings in general doesn't match up to Broadway at the moment, no, but a while ago, neither did Broadway. We're projecting fifty, seventy years into the future; it's a major corridor in and out of downtown from East Van, it's growing, and it's slightly out of the reach of the Millennium catchment radii. Conventional thinking figures that a metro network should have redundancy.

Originally Posted by BCPhil

It could also serve as an LRT trunk line and have branches off it on streets like Main, Commercial, and Renfrew. Those lines could be used to increase distribution capacity around the east side to and from existing Skytrain lines.

Careful, you're wading into Condonland. Any reason to believe that the Main-Commercial bus or B-Line grid would be overloaded enough to justify the financial and logistical cost of a tram replacement?

[SpongeG]

Washington officials lay out case for 'game-changing' bullet train linking Vancouver, Seattle, Portland

$50B rail investment would be half the cost of adding lanes to I-5 highway, transportation secretary says
Nov 12, 2019 The Associated Press



A vote in Washington state last week to roll back car registration fees has scrambled transportation budgets — but Pacific Northwest rail advocates are undeterred in pursuing their vision of a bullet train connection between Portland, Seattle and Vancouver.

Microsoft hosted a high-power meeting of state policymakers, train manufacturers and rail supporters at the software giant's headquarters Thursday in conjunction with the U.S. High Speed Rail Association.

At the Cascadia Rail Summit, enthusiasm to build a bullet train capable of going from Seattle to Portland — or to Vancouver — in one hour rubbed against an anti-tax message from the passage of Washington Initiative 976.

After bemoaning that the state's highways, bridges, ferries and rail cars "are on a glide path to failure," Washington Department of Transportation Secretary Roger Millar laid out the case for building an ultra-high-speed railway on dedicated track.

"As we regroup here in Washington state and think about investing $50 billion [US] in ultra-high-speed rail," Millar said, "Do you think we'll ever get to a place where highway expansion keeps up with economic expansion and population? It will not happen. It cannot happen."

...

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5356535?fbc...weNjxiU9yLIb1M

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

even less likely to happen now. i still don't see where all this money will come from. California is the population of Canada, and look what happened. sure it would be cool, and i am sure it would change things. but $50 billion doesn't grow on trees.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Something I'm missing? Strathcona and Grandview I can understand, but once you hit Nanaimo, even off-peak, Hastings starts resembling the Alma-Macdonald village (same streetscape, same vehicle/pedestrian volumes), and that one definitely shouldn't have light rail either. Then there's Highway 1, Boundary and the Heights...

Hastings in general doesn't match up to Broadway at the moment, no, but a while ago, neither did Broadway. We're projecting fifty, seventy years into the future; it's a major corridor in and out of downtown from East Van, it's growing, and it's slightly out of the reach of the Millennium catchment radii. Conventional thinking figures that a metro network should have redundancy.

Is there anything rail that can climb to SFU? I'd argue anything we consider down Hastings should be able to get there.

[cairnstone]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Is there anything rail that can climb to SFU? I'd argue anything we consider down Hastings should be able to get there.

The gondola system is considered the best option

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by cairnstone

The gondola system is considered the best option

That's up from the Lougheed side and would terminate at a M-Line station though.

[cairnstone]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

That's up from the Lougheed side and would terminate at a M-Line station though.

Where would yo want it to terminate? Hasting has to low of a density plan to add LRT or Skytrain in about 30 years BRT will most likely happen

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by cairnstone

Where would yo want it to terminate? Hasting has to low of a density plan to add LRT or Skytrain in about 30 years BRT will most likely happen

Not the point. I asked about LRT terminating on SFU or if another bus transfer would still be required for students. The Hastings route to SFU is popular for students and SFU residents today.