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  #21  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2019, 3:56 PM
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This thread's been active for less than 12 hours and already it's a shit-show.
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  #22  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2019, 3:59 PM
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^ It has always been a touchy subject, but come on, a little controversy doesn't make something a shit-show.
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  #23  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2019, 4:09 PM
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Why do you decline? I actually give them some change if I can. Anwyays, stop making accusations. I personally know people that have been robbed downtown and harrased, including my little sister who is a student at UW. Like it or not there is a problem in downtown Winnipeg and denying it doesn't help anyone. There is a reason why people now have to be searched entering the god damn library!
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I decline because I'm not gonna feed peoples addictions (and I don't carry cash). I donate my money to the Siloam mission to help the homeless.

I personally know someone who was robbed in Tyndall Park. Also know someone who was robbed in Transcona. Also know someone who was robbed in the Maples. Better lock up your daughters.

How about statistics. Less than 10% of assaults takes place in downtown. Despite 70,000 people going downtown to work daily, 15000 living downtown, plus many thousands more going for events at the arena. The problem is perception. Downtown does not have a huge crime problem in relation to the number of people who frequent it vs other neighbourhoods.

The problem is you seeing impoverished aboriginals and referring to them as "those people" and assuming they're assaulting everyone.
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  #24  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2019, 4:21 PM
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I decline because I'm not gonna feed peoples addictions (and I don't carry cash). I donate my money to the Siloam mission to help the homeless.

I personally know someone who was robbed in Tyndall Park. Also know someone who was robbed in Transcona. Also know someone who was robbed in the Maples. Better lock up your daughters.

How about statistics. Less than 10% of assaults takes place in downtown. Despite 70,000 people going downtown to work daily, 15000 living downtown, plus many thousands more going for events at the arena. The problem is perception. Downtown does not have a huge crime problem in relation to the number of people who frequent it vs other neighbourhoods.

The problem is you seeing impoverished aboriginals and referring to them as "those people" and assuming they're assaulting everyone.
You just called the people asking for change drug addicts. lol I never even mentioned that. I also never said crime was only a problem downtown. Sad reality is crime is a problem in many parts of Winnipeg. We lead the country in homicides per capita. How ever this thread is about portage place. I also never mentioned peoples race, you mentioned aboriginals. If you want to make this about race that's on you. I am actually part native.
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  #25  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2019, 4:38 PM
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You just called the people asking for change drug addicts. lol I never even mentioned that. I also never said crime was only a problem downtown. Sad reality is crime is a problem in many parts of Winnipeg. We lead the country in homicides per capita. How ever this thread is about portage place. I also never mentioned peoples race, you mentioned aboriginals. If you want to make this about race that's on you. I am actually part native.
When did I say drug addicts exactly? I said feed their addictions. Alcohol, tobacco, and yes drugs are all addictions that are common amongst the most impoverished in our community.

And Winnipeg hasn't been the homicide per capita leader in Canada for a number of years, 2011 was the last time Winnipeg has led the country. Weren't even top 5 the last several years.
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  #26  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2019, 4:47 PM
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When did I say drug addicts exactly? I said feed their addictions. Alcohol, tobacco, and yes drugs are all addictions that are common amongst the most impoverished in our community.

And Winnipeg hasn't been the homicide per capita leader in Canada for a number of years. Weren't even top 5 the last several years.
Actually Winnipeg has been at the top and among the top most violent cities for a long time and looks like were are trying to break our own record this year. Denying this doesn't help anyone. We are at 27 homicides this year already. We have double the Candian average.

Drug addictions regardless of the drug is a problem. A problem that leads to comminting others crimes. So clearly you can see why that might be a problem.
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  #27  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2019, 5:15 PM
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  #28  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2019, 5:17 PM
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Actually Winnipeg has been at the top and among the top most violent cities for a long time and looks like were are trying to break our own record this year. Denying this doesn't help anyone. We are at 27 homicides this year already. We have double the Candian average.

Drug addictions regardless of the drug is a problem. A problem that leads to comminting others crimes. So clearly you can see why that might be a problem.
What did I deny? I never made any mention of violent crimes as a whole, or Winnipeg's relative average of violent crime.

You said Winnipeg led the country in homicides per capita. That is factually incorrect. I stated a fact, that Winnipeg hasn't led that category since 2011. You're the one who seems to be denying things. Yeah maybe 2019 will take Winnipeg to the top again, maybe it won't.

Source Stats Can Table 35-10-0071-01
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  #29  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2019, 5:20 PM
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This is good news that the redevelopment can move forward.

This is going to completely change PP and it will cease to be anything resembling it's current layout/structure - other than the parkade.

That's my hope...
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  #30  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2019, 5:29 PM
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I doubt there's ever a time when a crime isn't "a problem" or someone's addiction isn't "a problem", so IMO, there's no point in debating IF there's "a problem" in the downtown area. However, I think it's a fair comment to point out the perception of "downtown crime" is skewed by the intense focus the issue in that areas gets in the media and forums like these. If I had "the solution" I'd share it, but I don't. What I do know is that convenient labels almost never help a situation that is complicated and has many social and economic factors to it.

On a happier note, I'm still looking forward to the redevelopment ideas that come of this!
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  #31  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2019, 5:38 PM
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This is good news that the redevelopment can move forward.

This is going to completely change PP and it will cease to be anything resembling it's current layout/structure - other than the parkade.

That's my hope...
I sure hope so. It's a real shame to have such a good location downtown be such a cess pool.
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  #32  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2019, 5:51 PM
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I'm a glass half-full sort of guy. I live/work downtown and defend it where it make sense. I'm not one of those intimidated by people asking for change - I generally tell them 'no sorry' and continue on. However, what goes on behind Portage Place is entirely different than the usual that I tolerate.

I will admit I don't spend much time in there other than passing through during the day. However, during Fringe Fest this summer, I used the back door by the clock tower to walk to/from other shows in the Exchange. In my travels, I witnessed 2 drugs deals right in front of me and 2 fights which resulted in me having to change my route to avoid. It's not just people hanging out back there smoking or asking for change or casually reading a book. I challenge anyone to go sit out there on a bench on "The Promenade" for an hour and see how comfortable they feel. Try it in the day...and then try it in the evening...
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  #33  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2019, 7:13 PM
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Originally Posted by oftheMoon View Post
I'm a glass half-full sort of guy. I live/work downtown and defend it where it make sense. I'm not one of those intimidated by people asking for change - I generally tell them 'no sorry' and continue on. However, what goes on behind Portage Place is entirely different than the usual that I tolerate.

I will admit I don't spend much time in there other than passing through during the day. However, during Fringe Fest this summer, I used the back door by the clock tower to walk to/from other shows in the Exchange. In my travels, I witnessed 2 drugs deals right in front of me and 2 fights which resulted in me having to change my route to avoid. It's not just people hanging out back there smoking or asking for change or casually reading a book. I challenge anyone to go sit out there on a bench on "The Promenade" for an hour and see how comfortable they feel. Try it in the day...and then try it in the evening...
It's so frustrating that there doesn't seem to be any room in the greater public dialogue for this kind of nuanced, reasonable perspective on downtown safety. It's almost always a binary choice between 'Downtown is a dangerous cesspoool and its a wonder we're not all murdered' and 'Downtown safety issues are just, like, your perception, man'.

All of these things can be true at the same time:
  • not all of downtown is bad;
  • not all panhandlers are dangerous or seemingly dangerous;
  • crime happens in many areas of the city;
  • some Winnipeggers/Manitobans may have unrealistic/unreasonable expectations regarding poor people and public disorder or unsightliness;
  • there are more seemingly dangerous or at least very disorderly and unpredictable people with mental health problems wandering around downtown today than there was 10 years ago;
  • this scariness is especially worse around Portage Avenue, Graham, U of W;
  • downtown safety is different for able-bodied men than it is for women;
  • downtown residents and visitors (especially women) should not be expected to be okay with frequent street harassment, feelings unsafe, or encountering people behaving aggressively;
  • we can do a whole lot better, but we have to be a lot more honest, precise, and comprehensive.
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  #34  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2019, 7:30 PM
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Back in the 80s, people seemed optimistic that Portage Place would change the down at the heels vibe of North Portage. Of course, it didn't. If anything, it got worse over time.

I am not 100% sure that things will change dramatically this time around, particularly given that the people who hang out at Portage Place aren't going anywhere. The best Starlight can do is to eliminate or at least reduce the public spaces to make it more of a fully private establishment.

Whether deliberately or not, Winnipeg has effectively funneled its most downtrodden and vulnerable population in and around downtown (the poor, the mentally ill, recent immigrants/refugees, poor internal migrants i.e. Indigenous people from northern reserves). Not surprisingly, downtown reflects that... you can't just fence off those neighbourhoods from downtown itself to make it safe and comfortable for white folk working 9 to 5.

Even though I've been overseas many times, it is still such a mindbender to visit other cities where the urban core is a desirable neighbourhood... not just the downtown single yuppie condo forest of Toronto, but places that offer urban homes for entire families. It isn't just residential density that downtown Winnipeg needs... we need to think about ways to improve the surrounding neighbourhoods. It isn't about gentrification and pushing the poor out, it's about making those places safe neighbourhoods for everyone. West Broadway is a decent model to follow... it's a place that has become popular without becoming inaccessible.
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  #35  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2019, 7:34 PM
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[*]downtown safety is different for able-bodied men than it is for women;[*]downtown residents and visitors (especially women) should not be expected to be okay with frequent street harassment, feelings unsafe, or encountering people behaving aggressively;
[/LIST]

This was my original point. If there is going to be a residence for students at PP, then their saftey needs to be taken into consideration specially for females. I have personally seen females feel uncomfortable leaving the back doors at PP.

I apologize to the forum for getting off topic. I hope the new portage place is a huge improvement to the entire area. I will not comment further on this topic.
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  #36  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2019, 7:53 PM
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Park of the big issue (IMO) with Portage Place is that it effectively walled off Portage for three straight blocks.

My (educated) guess is that this redevelopment will open Portage back up, at least a little bit to better resemble the way the streets once ran.
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  #37  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2019, 8:04 PM
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Park of the big issue (IMO) with Portage Place is that it effectively walled off Portage for three straight blocks.

My (educated) guess is that this redevelopment will open Portage back up, at least a little bit to better resemble the way the streets once ran.
Will it, though? Is Starlight actually going to allow the streets to run through again, even though it would reduce the value of their asset by shrinking it?

If anything, I would expect Starlight to reduce public accessibility... if the mall and food court are gone, then that effectively ends Portage Place as a hangout. Then only residents and employees are allowed in.
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  #38  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2019, 8:08 PM
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I work downtown and don’t have negative experiences, that being said I’m a young white guy so I’m not really vulnerable to it. However, there’s areas I avoid, the back of Portage Place being one of them. Whether I experience crime or not I think there is a definite feeling amongst people in wpg who might not be as in tune with city issues as the people on this forum that downtown has gotten more dangerous and crime is on the rise, whether that’s true or not the perception and feeling are. Peoples feelings are legitimate and although I often find myself dismissing people as being uninformed or ignorant that’s not helpful.

At the end of the day all inner cities experience crime and homelessness. I suspect most people on this forum understand what I’m about to say to some extent but I’m going to try and articulate it to try and make my understanding better. I find that Winnipeg’s ratio is a tad concerning. I just finished Joe Berridges book “perfect city”. One of the cities he discusses is Belfast where he made the note that when he was hired to work there, Belfast didn’t need more poor people. It needed people with means out and about. That didn’t mean displacing the poor people. I find this is Winnipeg’s problem as well. I was on Queen W in Toronto today and made sure to keep an eye on the number of homeless people, or people asking for money and I would say it’s similar to Winnipeg. The difference is the sheer number of people with some means out shopping or eating or going for a walk. As a result, I think that the type of people who might view this group of people as a threat or scary in Winnipeg never feel that way in Toronto. They’re less noticeable but still there.
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  #39  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2019, 8:13 PM
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I agree, I suspect Starlight will pretty much put an end to the open public aspect of PP. I’m guessing stores will all have separate street side entrances and office and residential tenants will have designated entrances. If I were Starlight I would likely prefer an indoor space that doesn’t encourage people coming in who won’t be spending money.
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  #40  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2019, 8:37 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Will it, though? Is Starlight actually going to allow the streets to run through again, even though it would reduce the value of their asset by shrinking it?

If anything, I would expect Starlight to reduce public accessibility... if the mall and food court are gone, then that effectively ends Portage Place as a hangout. Then only residents and employees are allowed in.
I did say "educated" guess.

Remember that they are getting this property for pennies on the dollar. The only real value there is the parkade and the foundations for the towers at each end of the mall. Everything above that is fair game.
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