Investors Group Field | Winnipeg

[pacman]

The first half of the season almost always has a lower average attendance than the second half so it being over 26k for the first half of the season is actually pretty good. Assuming the team remains competitive/good, you'll see higher attendances starting with the banjo bowl and continuing to the end of the season bringing the whole average up to a really decent number. The location is fine. Attendance has a lot more to do with the quality of the on-field product (winning team) than it does with location.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

lol....

Nobody cares about a tier 5 soccer club.

No kidding, this new soccer league should draw about 2-3K per game and it gets talked about like it's the MLS!

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by pacman

The first half of the season almost always has a lower average attendance than the second half so it being over 26k for the first half of the season is actually pretty good. Assuming the team remains competitive/good, you'll see higher attendances starting with the banjo bowl and continuing to the end of the season bringing the whole average up to a really decent number. The location is fine. Attendance has a lot more to do with the quality of the on-field product (winning team) than it does with location.

If you can only manage to draw 26K on a sunny hot Friday night good luck with the rest of the season, everyone knows the Banjo Bowl will be sold out, it is the only game that is for the past 10 years. CFL lost most of the Gen X'ers the Millennials and are working hard on losing everyone else. The big three cities gave up on the CFL years ago with the MLS killing the CFL in those cities with Calgary and Edmonton not far behind!

[ywgwalk]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

If you can only manage to draw 26K on a sunny hot Friday night good luck with the rest of the season, everyone knows the Banjo Bowl will be sold out, it is the only game that is for the past 10 years.

Rider games in green, pre and post banjo bowl averages shown. All regular season games since Investors Group Field opened.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

If you can only manage to draw 26K on a sunny hot Friday night good luck with the rest of the season, everyone knows the Banjo Bowl will be sold out, it is the only game that is for the past 10 years.

Actually with the current CFL schedule format western teams play two teams twice, two teams three times (one extra home, one extra away). It isn't very common but when the Bombers get the Riders twice at home they manage to sell out both games. Thankful this season is a double Rider visit and the second game is mid October which has been nutritiously hard to sell in the past as the weather definitely starts to cool off after Banjo Bowl. Matter of fact the Bombers only have three home games after Banjo Bowl this year, Montreal in late September and the season ending pink game for cancer v Calgary.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by pacman

The first half of the season almost always has a lower average attendance than the second half so it being over 26k for the first half of the season is actually pretty good. Assuming the team remains competitive/good, you'll see higher attendances starting with the banjo bowl and continuing to the end of the season bringing the whole average up to a really decent number. The location is fine. Attendance has a lot more to do with the quality of the on-field product (winning team) than it does with location.

That's not true at all. While the Banjo Bowl pushes up second half attendance a bit, games from late September to early November tend to draw less people.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by ywgwalk

Rider games in green, pre and post banjo bowl averages shown. All regular season games since Investors Group Field opened.

It's pretty clear that home game attendance drops off after early September. It almost always has...even at the old stadium...even prior to the existence of the Banjo Bowl.

[blueandgoldguy]

I still think it's a mistake to have the Valour play at IGF. Even with 5-6,000 people attending games on one side of the stadium the atmosphere will still be subpar. It would have been so much better if the province and city could have been convinced to rebuild the Waverley Soccer Complex as a 7,000 (expandable to 10,000) seat soccer complex for let's say $10 - $15 million with the club paying for locker room facilities. The atmosphere would be appreciably better in a sold out or nearly sold out facility.

The Bombers have no business owning this soccer team imo as they are barely meeting their debt repayment obligations on the new stadium. All start up pro leagues lose money in their initial season and this usually extends for several seasons ie. see MLS and further back the WHA.

Given that the reported Canadian Premier League team salaries will be $2 million from what I understand and the national TV deal and national sponsorships will not exactly be significant, this will be primarily a gate-driven league for the forseeable future, assuming it lasts that long. Most, if not all teams, will lose money for the first several seasons, and the teams will have to hope local interest in the soccer clubs increases, improving attendance and their respective bottom lines...all while waiting for other revenue streams to increase significantly.

Back to the Bombers, attendance has been relatively consistent with that of the old stadium. However, back when the move was made IGF, it was thought that long-term attendance would increase to the 28-30,000 range (and this was needed to make the annual payments on IGF) and the stadium would draw 3-4 concerts per year. Outside the first 2 years at IGF, the average has been around 26,000. There has never been more than 2 concerts a year at the stadium so they have come up short in that regard. In fact this year and back in 2016, there have been 0 concerts so the Bombers have to hope to compensate for that with additional home games (playoffs) or some other revenue source ie. in 2016, renting out IGF for the NHL Heritage Classic.

[buzzg]

I agree that IGF will be bad for the soccer, but I think it’s smart for the bombers to own them. But that’s also why IGF is the most sensible location, for the organization. Also, the bombers are actually doing quite well with their debt repayment and are profiting more than they have in decades. It’s the government’s side of the deal that’s failing.

[esquire]

The big factor in post-BB attendance drops in recent years has been the team's lousy performance. No one wants to spend good money to sit in a cold stadium to watch the Bombers play a late October game when they've already been eliminated from the playoffs.

Looking at ywgwalk's numbers, it's clear that the phenomenon has been far less pronounced these last couple of years when the Bombers have actually been a playoff team.

I'm sure there will always be the people who stop coming to games once the NFL starts, once their own kids' seasons start, once it gets too cold, etc., but I think the W/L record is what is ultimately going to drive late season attendance in this city.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

I still think it's a mistake to have the Valour play at IGF. Even with 5-6,000 people attending games on one side of the stadium the atmosphere will still be subpar.

Ottawa is a perfect example of this. TD Place is absolutely dreary for Fury games. Atmosphere is negative even by Ottawa standards. Teams like these should absolutely have stadiums sized for them, and this is where I think Halifax and Victoria have got it right.

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

Given that the reported Canadian Premier League team salaries will be $2 million from what I understand and the national TV deal and national sponsorships will not exactly be significant, this will be primarily a gate-driven league for the forseeable future, assuming it lasts that long. Most, if not all teams, will lose money for the first several seasons

Teams are starting up with the knowledge that they will be losing money for the first couple of years until more momemtum is created. Owners know this when they're buying in.

AFAIK the league is more interested in corporate sponsorship than "TV" deals and are looking more at streaming platforms than anything else. There isn't exactly much growth to be had in classic TV these days.

I agree on the Bombers ownership re: buying into the CPL. With the Bombers themselves tied to loan payments on IGF i'm guessing they're looking for additional long-term revenue streams to help pay off said loans and to get more dates being used at IGF. They must see potential in CPL ownership or else they wouldn't be sinking costs into it initially.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Ottawa is a perfect example of this. TD Place is absolutely dreary for Fury games. Atmosphere is negative even by Ottawa standards. Teams like these should absolutely have stadiums sized for them, and this is where I think Halifax and Victoria have got it right.

Winnipeg is a little weird in that we have almost no mid-level sporting facilities. It's either major league pro or community recreation with a few hundred bench seats. No in between. Shaw Park (baseball) is the only notable facility I can think of that fits somewhere in between. University Stadium is too outdated and neglected to count anymore.

Considering the growth in soccer here in recent years, it would not seem unreasonable to me to see a 5,000 or so seat soccer field get built for CPL and high level amateur use. Whatever funding there is for soccer infrastructure has been directed mostly to indoor facilities lately, which is quite understandable as that has been lacking.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

Winnipeg is a little weird in that we have almost no mid-level sporting facilities. It's either major league pro or community recreation with a few hundred bench seats. No in between. Shaw Park (baseball) is the only notable facility I can think of that fits somewhere in between. University Stadium is too outdated and neglected to count anymore.

Considering the growth in soccer here in recent years, it would not seem unreasonable to me to see a 5,000 or so seat soccer field get built for CPL and high level amateur use. Whatever funding there is for soccer infrastructure has been directed mostly to indoor facilities lately, which is quite understandable as that has been lacking.

Hockey notwithstanding it sounds exactly like the situation in Ottawa. No mid-level stadiums aside from the baseball stadium which is geared towards semi-pro. Stadium is either massive or non-existent.

Part of the issue for Fury is that, even if owned by OSEG, they're quite clearly playing in a stadium meant for another team/sport. There's nowhere to call home, as it were. I fear teams like Valour and Forge will run into similar issues under the same circumstances as Fury, who have hit a ceiling under their current arrangement.

[buzzg]

We kind of have that problem with everything – it's the same for music/entertainment venues as well. We sink all the money into the major ones and have nothing left over, haha.

The new Grant Park "recreation campus" or whatever they're going to call it is getting turf for the school's football team (and others) and South End United to share. Throw up some bleachers there for the season. I say that only half joking – don't think that's the best place, but if it weren't for the Bombers ability to (I assume) make more money from concessions at IGF than elsewhere, it'd be better to play at a facility like that.

Thing about Halifax is they'll probably move into the new stadium (projected at 22,000 people) when it's done in a few years. So you'll have:

- Victoria ("Pacific Island") whose stadium is currently being expanded to 6,500
- York at 2,500 for a few years until they find a place for their "modular, adaptable 15,000 seat" stadium
- Hamilton playing at THF but tarping upper decks for a capacity of 14,000
- Edmonton at Clarke stadium with a capacity of 4,200, looking at expansion to 7,000
- Calgary in a new 5,000 seat venue at Spruce Meadows

We're going to be like the Argos of the CPL, playing in a giant, empty, cavernous venue that's significantly bigger than anywhere else in the league.

Oh one other fun fact – the season starts in April. Not only could it be frigid in April/May and be tough to get people out, but this past winter they continued to have issues with bursting pipes that were supposed to be fixed.

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by buzzg

We kind of have that problem with everything – it's the same for music/entertainment venues as well. We sink all the money into the major ones and have nothing left over, haha.

The new Grant Park "recreation campus" or whatever they're going to call it is getting turf for the school's football team (and others) and South End United to share. Throw up some bleachers there for the season. I say that only half joking – don't think that's the best place, but if it weren't for the Bombers ability to (I assume) make more money from concessions at IGF than elsewhere, it'd be better to play at a facility like that.

Thing about Halifax is they'll probably move into the new stadium (projected at 22,000 people) when it's done in a few years. So you'll have:

- Victoria ("Pacific Island") whose stadium is currently being expanded to 6,500
- York at 2,500 for a few years until they find a place for their "modular, adaptable 15,000 seat" stadium
- Hamilton playing at THF but tarping upper decks for a capacity of 14,000
- Edmonton at Clarke stadium with a capacity of 4,200, looking at expansion to 7,000
- Calgary in a new 5,000 seat venue at Spruce Meadows

We're going to be like the Argos of the CPL, playing in a giant, empty, cavernous venue that's significantly bigger than anywhere else in the league.

Oh one other fun fact – the season starts in April. Not only could it be frigid in April/May and be tough to get people out, but this past winter they continued to have issues with bursting pipes that were supposed to be fixed.

Here's the plan for the Grant Park Rec Campus site:

https://winnipeg.ca/cms/projects/gra...nal_report.pdf

When looking at sports, the school itself doesn't get a whole lot of changes, it's mostly the soccer fields on the south side of the area (owned by the City) that is getting an upgrade. Looks like they're trying to fit in more fields, with little to no seating. City is looking to maximize field rental revenue, not have capacity to host a once weekly (tops) CPL game for 5-7000 fans.

Looking at the Grant and Waverley Soccer complexes, it would be a challenge to upgrade these venues to accommodate parking for that the estimated 5000-8000 CPL fans. On-street is likely inadequate, especially around Waverley. Neither of these sites are particularly transit friendly unlike U of M and Polo Park so having adequate parking would be essential

[blueandgoldguy]

If Edmonton made some significant upgrades to Clarke Stadium with permanent concessions and washrooms as well as locker room facilities, I think it will be the perfect size for the CSL. Calgary's stadium might be ideal as well at least in terms of size...not sure of the quality though. 6500 seater for Victoria sounds ideal as well.

The early April start for the league is sure to see lousy attendance and/or lots of no-shows due to cold weather. Better to start at the beginning of May when the weather is a bit nicer (average of 15 degrees Celsius in the Prairie Cities) Also, with half the teams in the NHL making the playoffs, there is a good chance teams in Calgary, Edmonton and Winnipeg will suffer for attendance in April/early May.

For all their success last year, the Bombers had a surplus of $400,000 after making their annual debt repayment. The year before their surplus declined as their operating profit after expenses was not enough to make the annual stadium repayment. That surplus will be quickly eaten away with annual losses of a million or more in the first few seasons of the CSL. Despite solid crowds of 5-6,000 the Ottawa Fury has reported losses of $2 million either last year or the year before. Why would Winnipeg be any different?

[buzzg]

I said i wasn’t actually suggesting GP would work. Honestly upgrading University Stadium a bit would be best. Edmonton IS fully upgrading Clarke, just not for the first season as they need to plan it. Calgary is a brand new facility. Victoria will be intersting as they’re replaceing a ~2000 seat grandstand with a 6,500 seat one – but it’s bound by a highway directly behind it, so they’ve already said it’s going to be extremely steep.

[Ando]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

lol....

Nobody cares about a tier 5 soccer club.

Colin, I was merely pointing that that was what we were talking about and he thought we were talking about the Bombers. What’s your issue? Other than acting like a jackass that is.

[Ando]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

No kidding, this new soccer league should draw about 2-3K per game and it gets talked about like it's the MLS!

Who said anything about it being MLS? Can you give us some citations? It is what it is. Colin won’t be able to go anyway because he doesn’t live in province.

[Ando]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

I still think it's a mistake to have the Valour play at IGF. Even with 5-6,000 people attending games on one side of the stadium the atmosphere will still be subpar. It would have been so much better if the province and city could have been convinced to rebuild the Waverley Soccer Complex as a 7,000 (expandable to 10,000) seat soccer complex for let's say $10 - $15 million with the club paying for locker room facilities. The atmosphere would be appreciably better in a sold out or nearly sold out facility.

The Bombers have no business owning this soccer team imo as they are barely meeting their debt repayment obligations on the new stadium. All start up pro leagues lose money in their initial season and this usually extends for several seasons ie. see MLS and further back the WHA.

Given that the reported Canadian Premier League team salaries will be $2 million from what I understand and the national TV deal and national sponsorships will not exactly be significant, this will be primarily a gate-driven league for the forseeable future, assuming it lasts that long. Most, if not all teams, will lose money for the first several seasons, and the teams will have to hope local interest in the soccer clubs increases, improving attendance and their respective bottom lines...all while waiting for other revenue streams to increase significantly.

Back to the Bombers, attendance has been relatively consistent with that of the old stadium. However, back when the move was made IGF, it was thought that long-term attendance would increase to the 28-30,000 range (and this was needed to make the annual payments on IGF) and the stadium would draw 3-4 concerts per year. Outside the first 2 years at IGF, the average has been around 26,000. There has never been more than 2 concerts a year at the stadium so they have come up short in that regard. In fact this year and back in 2016, there have been 0 concerts so the Bombers have to hope to compensate for that with additional home games (playoffs) or some other revenue source ie. in 2016, renting out IGF for the NHL Heritage Classic.

No, it’s not a mistake at all. You obviously know nothing about the atmosphere at soccer games or how passionate smaller crowds for this level of soccer will be. You may need a lesson in business plans as well since the Bombers are looking for revenue dates at the stadium. It costs next to nothing to run a team like this. Why don’t you become better informed? And stop talking out of your butt about a magical stadium at Waverly that has less chance of being built than Dreamscape. Get real.