Winnipeg | Osborne Village & Corydon area

[OTA in Winnipeg]

^Haha, go take a stroll through the north end tonight, all by yourself, maybe around I;00, 2:00 or 3:00 am, and let me know how it goes.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by OTA in Winnipeg

^Haha, go take a stroll through the north end tonight, all by yourself, maybe around I;00, 2:00 or 3:00 am, and let me know how it goes.

I don't think black dog was trying to say Winnipeg itself is safer now, but he is correct, North America was at its most violent when meth was not really a major issue. Crack cocaine most certainly was though and the crack trade caused a lot of violence, probably more than any other drug. Not so much here in Canada but certainly in the US.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by OTA in Winnipeg

^Haha, go take a stroll through the north end tonight, all by yourself, maybe around I;00, 2:00 or 3:00 am, and let me know how it goes.

The North End has always been that way in the rougher areas, going back 100 years. I am not sure what your point is.

[Biff]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

I disagree with this premise.

I lived in Thompson for many years. I witnessed more incidents within a couple hundred feet of the RCMP detachment from people than I could count. Fighting, drinking, pissing in the RCMP parking lot, general lawlessness all the while police came and went.

What kind of deterrent has WPS headquarters downtown been to criminals in the couple of blocks surrounding it, with all of the police coming and going? Hint: Not much.

When people are under the influence (Manitoba's gift), they do not give a shit if police are nearby.

This misses the point. I understand that having a building full of cops is not a deterrent because there are no actual cops on the street. Putting actual humans on the street every few block does. Being drunk and disorderly is a crime…except in this city. I believe if the police had an actual street presence these people visibly drunk or high could be removed an taken to a sobering centre before any unnecessary altercation takes place - assault, vandalism, b&e.

It works in downtown Chicago.

[pspeid]

It doesn't take much of a search to see that people have been asking for years to see more police foot patrols, especially in downtown areas. My question would be, what is stopping this from happening? The public will is there, but it doesn't seem like the police chief (whomever it is at the moment) or the police union have much of an interest in doing it (at least not with out substantial increases to the enormous police budget we have).

My gut feeling (read: no actual data) is that the police union is the main culprit here. I can easily see their members balking at the idea of leaving their cars and walking for a few hours at a time. In the past they've been opposed to anyone but members of the club (read: police union) doing any kind of public security work (e.g. recent opposition to non-club members providing security on busses).

Fighting unions can be incredibly difficult with one as large and powerful as the Winnipeg police union. I honestly think the city's hands are tied to a great degree in this manner.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by Biff

This misses the point. I understand that having a building full of cops is not a deterrent because there are no actual cops on the street. Putting actual humans on the street every few block does. Being drunk and disorderly is a crime…except in this city. I believe if the police had an actual street presence these people visibly drunk or high could be removed an taken to a sobering centre before any unnecessary altercation takes place - assault, vandalism, b&e.

It works in downtown Chicago.

^ well said.

[peg]

.

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by OTA in Winnipeg

^Haha, go take a stroll through the north end tonight, all by yourself, maybe around I;00, 2:00 or 3:00 am, and let me know how it goes.

Well based on BlackDog's statistics, I would go take a 2 am stroll through the north end over a 1991 2 am stroll in the north end. Just because certain areas are seedier than others, doesn't change the fact that crime rates have fallen since the early 90s.

[Johnny199r]

Originally Posted by Biff

This misses the point. I understand that having a building full of cops is not a deterrent because there are no actual cops on the street. Putting actual humans on the street every few block does. Being drunk and disorderly is a crime…except in this city. I believe if the police had an actual street presence these people visibly drunk or high could be removed an taken to a sobering centre before any unnecessary altercation takes place - assault, vandalism, b&e.

It works in downtown Chicago.

WPS already often doesn’t respond to serious crimes because they are too stretched, where are the cops going to come from to stand on the corners?

WPS increased their downtown foot patrols last year, but it hasn’t done much good. People still get randomly attacked by people on meth.

You mistake “building full of cops” for no cops. The cops stationed at the Thompson detachment or at WPS headquarters were constantly coming and going from the building and witnessed lots of things and thought to themselves “nope, not dealing with that again” and kept on going.

“police presence” for standing on a corner in Osborne village in hopes of preventing drunk people from loitering there takes them off of serious violent calls throughout the city which they can’t already keep up with.

All day every single day this is all I deal with in court. Just like cops have admitted they can’t arrest their way out of problems today, standing on a corner here or there won’t have much of an effect either.

Lord knows if they were actually going to go that route, Osborne Village wouldn’t be in my top 25 places for them to start.

[Johnny199r]

Originally Posted by pspeid

It doesn't take much of a search to see that people have been asking for years to see more police foot patrols, especially in downtown areas. My question would be, what is stopping this from happening? The public will is there, but it doesn't seem like the police chief (whomever it is at the moment) or the police union have much of an interest in doing it (at least not with out substantial increases to the enormous police budget we have).

My gut feeling (read: no actual data) is that the police union is the main culprit here. I can easily see their members balking at the idea of leaving their cars and walking for a few hours at a time. In the past they've been opposed to anyone but members of the club (read: police union) doing any kind of public security work (e.g. recent opposition to non-club members providing security on busses).

Fighting unions can be incredibly difficult with one as large and powerful as the Winnipeg police union. I honestly think the city's hands are tied to a great degree in this manner.

Here are articles from 2016, 2018, 2020 and 2023 on increased foot patrols downtown. I’m no fan of the police, but I can’t agree with what you say here.

People think more police officers walking around somehow can do something about the increasingly large numbers of mentally ill/methed out people in our city. They can’t. It’s impossible. Also, meth use is just getting bigger and bigger in Winnipeg. None of the US states that have been dealing with it for a decade before it arrived here have found an effective strategy to deal with the fallout and neither have we.

I’ll repeat here what I say to everyone on this issue, unless there is a miraculous cure developed for meth, what you see out there today is only going to get much, much worse as an ever increasing amount of people get hooked on meth (and Winnipeg has a never ending supply of poor, vulnerable people moving to the city ever week who will get hooked).

https://news4winnipeg.com/police-wps...rols-downtown/

https://globalnews.ca/news/4017430/w...wn-safety/amp/


https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5490930

https://winnipegsun.com/news/provinc...owntown-safety

[harls]

The meth problem is real. In rural MB where my parents are from, meth heads have been stealing cars to feed their addictions. In a town of 2500.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by harls

The meth problem is real. In rural MB where my parents are from, meth heads have been stealing cars to feed their addictions. In a town of 2500.

If people are getting caught more than once there is no reason they should be out doing it again and again. Part of their sentencing should be to get mandatory treatment for their addiction. It's not fair to society to put up with so much of this.

Wab Kinew promised to do something about the bale system, to make sure repeate offenders weren't getting out so easily. Not sure if anything has been about this? That was one the main things he spoke about as part of his plan to tackle crime.

[Johnny199r]

Originally Posted by Luisito

If people are getting caught more than once there is no reason they should be out doing it again and again. Part of their sentencing should be to get mandatory treatment for their addiction. It's not fair to society to put up with so much of this.

Wab Kinew promised to do something about the bale system, to make sure repeate offenders weren't getting out so easily. Not sure if anything has been about this? That was one the main things he spoke about as part of his plan to tackle crime.

The criminal code is federal, not provincial. He has no power to affect bail.

Even when the federal government introduces mandatory minimum sentences, they often get struck down by the Supreme Court.

Do you know how many people sitting in jails have been to treatment centres? Lots. It’s not unusual to have people attend residential treatment centres 6 or 7 times.

Do you know what happens when they complete the program? They get a certificate, a pat on the back and are shown the front door. Do you know where they have to go after that? The street. Do you know what happens when they end back up in the street? (or if they’re lucky a trap house or a family member’s home where everyone living there has addictions).

Addictions programming is meaningless on its own without long term stability (ie a place to live) for these people. Funding treatment centres is ok with the government. Funding long term 2nd stage sober living facilities is not a priority.

[Luisito]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

The criminal code is federal, not provincial. He has no power to affect bail.

So he blatantly lied.

Even when the federal government introduces mandatory minimum sentences, they often get struck down by the Supreme Court.

That's a shame.

Addictions programming is meaningless on its own without long term stability (ie a place to live) for these people. Funding treatment centres is ok with the government. Funding long term 2nd stage sober living facilities is not a priority

If sobre living facilties are whats needed then the government should invest in them along with job placement programs. Nothing keeps people off the streets and trap houses more than a legit job.

[Biff]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

WPS already often doesn’t respond to serious crimes because they are too stretched, where are the cops going to come from to stand on the corners?

WPS increased their downtown foot patrols last year, but it hasn’t done much good. People still get randomly attacked by people on meth.

“police presence” for standing on a corner in Osborne village in hopes of preventing drunk people from loitering there takes them off of serious violent calls throughout the city which they can’t already keep up with.

All day every single day this is all I deal with in court. Just like cops have admitted they can’t arrest their way out of problems today, standing on a corner here or there won’t have much of an effect either.

Lord knows if they were actually going to go that route, Osborne Village wouldn’t be in my top 25 places for them to start.

I am not saying that putting cops on every second or third corner isn't a logistics issue, just that in my experiences in my visits to Chicago, it seems to work. Whatever we are doing here is not working at all.

[wags_in_the_peg]

a very vocal small minority of people say Cops cause harm and it triggers them seeing on every street corner. and I can list the groups hear but then i would be called a bigot, racist, homophobe, etc etc

unfortuantely the vast majority of the public, who work for a living and dont have time to protest, believe more cops on the street patrolling is a good thing.

[drew]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

WPS increased their downtown foot patrols last year, but it hasn’t done much good. People still get randomly attacked by people on meth.

I spend quite a bit of time downtown during the week, and from my experience, downtown foot patrols by actual uniformed police is still an exceedingly rare occurrence.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

Here are articles from 2016, 2018, 2020 and 2023 on increased foot patrols downtown. I’m no fan of the police, but I can’t agree with what you say here.

People think more police officers walking around somehow can do something about the increasingly large numbers of mentally ill/methed out people in our city. They can’t. It’s impossible. Also, meth use is just getting bigger and bigger in Winnipeg. None of the US states that have been dealing with it for a decade before it arrived here have found an effective strategy to deal with the fallout and neither have we.

I’ll repeat here what I say to everyone on this issue, unless there is a miraculous cure developed for meth, what you see out there today is only going to get much, much worse as an ever increasing amount of people get hooked on meth (and Winnipeg has a never ending supply of poor, vulnerable people moving to the city ever week who will get hooked).

Those are very good points. I recall, however, that my original post was questioning why there seem to be a lack of foot patrols, rather than promoting their effectiveness in dealing with different types of criminal activity.

For the record, I think you are correct. Foot patrols, or general increases in the size of the police force, will not deter many crimes, especially those caused by meth use. Many "career" criminals, I believe, are not deterred from crime because they seem to feel they are smarter than any police force, or feel the possible rewards of their crimes are much greater than any risk of capture or punishment.

I suppose what a visible presence like foot patrols do is provide a bit of a "safety blanket" for average schmoes walking around at night. A few crimes of opportunity may be deterred, and people behaving poorly may choose to straighten up if they see a cop standing nearby (like people who slow to the speed limit if they see a police cruiser parked on the street).

That being said, it it "worth" the police's time to have foot patrols? I think if it can change perceptions there's some value to it. I think many people avoid the downtown area, day or night, because their inner narrative sees endless criminal assaults on every street corner. I think a big part of making the downtown more attractive is making it less scary. If foot patrols of some kind do that, i'm in favour of them. Imo they don't even have to be police, but an organization like the Bear Clan patrol or other semi-official group that serves as a presence.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

Funding treatment centres is ok with the government. Funding long term 2nd stage sober living facilities is not a priority.

I believe that is what organizations like True North and Siloam Mission are currently working towards, aren't they? I know it will take years for the stock of 2nd stage facilities to be developed, but at least there seems to be some movement in that direction.

[Johnny199r]

Originally Posted by pspeid

I believe that is what organizations like True North and Siloam Mission are currently working towards, aren't they? I know it will take years for the stock of 2nd stage facilities to be developed, but at least there seems to be some movement in that direction.

I hope so.

I'll scream it form the rooftops. The only progress that will be made on the issue you see in our city is if there is a vast network of long term 2nd stage sober living facilities where people have a safe place to live, have help, learn responsibilities and try to "reintegrate" into normal life.

"Go to treatment and then get a job" is useless advice for many meth addicted people in our city. Many of them can't read, are cognitively retarded, some have FASD, their brains have been melted by meth etc etc. Sadly, these people need to be supported and that costs a lot of money. We can either pay for it though police, corrections, courts and hospitals, or try it the other way. However, trying to the other way tends to enrage voters.