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  #61  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2018, 2:06 PM
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We won't do anything meaningful because the Canadian conception of international relations is entirely... what do you call it... is it "rules-based"? Is it "soft power"?

It's talk. It's all talk. And countries actually making moves against one another in Hobbesian space with hard power backing them up is something we are completely unprepared for.

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  #62  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2018, 2:19 PM
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Which is why it's best that we just don't get involved. We have nothing to gain, our backs are against the wall, and nobody will come in and rescue us. If the Americans really wanted Meng, they should have gone after her themselves.

While I'm not an expert on American foreign relations, I will note that the Americans have the annoying habit of leaving their allies high and dry after they've done them a solid. This isn't a new phenomenon, but has persisted for decades. Luckily we don't have to suffer as tragically as a South Vietnamese boat person or Iraqi Kurds, but this is a lesson we should remember for the future.
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  #63  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2018, 5:05 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
Which is why it's best that we just don't get involved. We have nothing to gain, our backs are against the wall, and nobody will come in and rescue us. If the Americans really wanted Meng, they should have gone after her themselves.

While I'm not an expert on American foreign relations, I will note that the Americans have the annoying habit of leaving their allies high and dry after they've done them a solid. This isn't a new phenomenon, but has persisted for decades. Luckily we don't have to suffer as tragically as a South Vietnamese boat person or Iraqi Kurds, but this is a lesson we should remember for the future.
And they're about to do it again to the Kurds in Syria.
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  #64  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2018, 6:03 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
While I'm not an expert on American foreign relations, I will note that the Americans have the annoying habit of leaving their allies high and dry after they've done them a solid. This isn't a new phenomenon, but has persisted for decades. Luckily we don't have to suffer as tragically as a South Vietnamese boat person or Iraqi Kurds, but this is a lesson we should remember for the future.
Canadians should think of American foreign policy like they think of, say, the weather. Sometimes it's nice, sometimes it's not nice, and there is not much rhyme or reason to it or much you can do to influence it. Get an umbrella. Or a bomb shelter.

I think Canadian officials made a big mistake by not warning Meng and then going through the motions of trying and failing to arrest her. It would also be OK if she escaped and we kept the bail money. Keeping her here while Donald Trump tweets about how he'll use her as a bargaining chip is just about the worst scenario.
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  #65  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2018, 6:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug View Post
Yet another example of amateur hour in Ottawa. Either Trudeau is going to block the sale or he shouldn’t even make mention. What is to be gained from “thinking” about blocking the sale besides creating uncertainty? Canada should also have stayed away from the Huawei arrest. Trump will likely drop the charges in return for trade concessions, so he looks like the hero and Canada the villain.
It appears Saudi Arabia is behind on making payments for the deal. Good enough grounds to cancel it:

...Saudi Arabia has fallen behind in making payments on its $15-billion arms deal with Canada, a contract that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has said he’s looking for ways to halt.

The Saudi government was short $1.8 billion in payments to the end of September for light-armoured vehicles assembled at General Dynamics Land Systems Canada (GDLS) in London, according to financial statements from the Canadian Commercial Corp., the federal Crown corporation overseeing the controversial contract....


https://nationalpost.com/news/local-...b-f644c4189623
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  #66  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2018, 7:52 PM
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If they don't, or they don't provide their sources to back up their story, then they've lost all credibility as a news organization. At this point I pretty much question everything the western media prints about China, because there are so many unproven allegations and outright falsehoods that it's not even funny.

For the record, I don't trust Xinhua, CCTV, or any other Chinese media any more than that. There's basically no news organization I trust to print objective news about China these days, which kind of sucks.
Bloomberg is owned by someone publicly pro-trade and anti-Trump. It's hard to see how such an article fits some "agenda" he has.

Meanwhile today the USA and UK indicted two Chinese nationals for a massive hack of government agencies and defense contractors:

The US and UK have taken the unprecedented step of accusing hackers linked to the Chinese government of waging a sustained cyber-campaign focused on large-scale theft of commercial intellectual property.

Two Chinese nationals were charged in the US in relation to a campaign across Europe, Asia and the US that breached Chinese bilateral and international commitments, American prosecutors said.

A US indictment unsealed on Thursday in unison with a series of British statements accused Chinese hackers of obtaining unauthorised access to the computers of at least 45 entities, including commercial and defence technology companies and US government agencies such as Nasa and the US navy.

The UK Foreign Office and the US indictment allege that a group of non-state employees was operating under the direction and protection of China’s main intelligence agency, the ministry of state security. The group was organised more like a corporation than a gang, a UK government official said...


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...cking-campaign
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  #67  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2018, 10:18 PM
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Bloomberg is owned by someone publicly pro-trade and anti-Trump. It's hard to see how such an article fits some "agenda" he has.
So? Their article was still proven to be false.

Quote:
Meanwhile today the USA and UK indicted two Chinese nationals for a massive hack of government agencies and defense contractors:

The US and UK have taken the unprecedented step of accusing hackers linked to the Chinese government of waging a sustained cyber-campaign focused on large-scale theft of commercial intellectual property.

Two Chinese nationals were charged in the US in relation to a campaign across Europe, Asia and the US that breached Chinese bilateral and international commitments, American prosecutors said.

A US indictment unsealed on Thursday in unison with a series of British statements accused Chinese hackers of obtaining unauthorised access to the computers of at least 45 entities, including commercial and defence technology companies and US government agencies such as Nasa and the US navy.

The UK Foreign Office and the US indictment allege that a group of non-state employees was operating under the direction and protection of China’s main intelligence agency, the ministry of state security. The group was organised more like a corporation than a gang, a UK government official said...


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...cking-campaign
Okay. China is involved in a lot of industrial / state espionage. You really think the US and other western governments aren't doing the same thing?

https://theintercept.com/2014/09/05/...-corporations/
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  #68  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2018, 3:23 AM
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Would it be excessive to worry about WWIII because of this? It seems that China's losing its cool.
My uneducated guess is that this will play out very much the way the Cold War did. Proxy wars but no head-to-head battles because the outcome could be total annihilation.

It's pretty clear the US will continue to allow China to lay its claim to the whole of the South China Sea. And none of the other countries (Vietnam, Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc.) that purport to have an historical claim to those islands have done much beyond grumble about it. They may be putting together a long-term plan that I'm not aware of but that remains to be seen. And God knows it's beyond those countries to actually collaborate on anything because they all hate each other or at least don't trust each other enough to even entertain that possibility.

Inasmuch as China scares the wits out of me, I admire their testicular fortitude in this case. They want to control those shipping lanes. They don't see a way to accomplish that goal via diplomacy. So they're just going to take it. Sounds familiar, actually...
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  #69  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2018, 5:52 AM
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The Chemist...………………….You state that all this seems like a `new red scare` and you are right. The West and all civilized, peaceful nations and human rights respecting people of the world have a LOT to be scared of when it comes to China.

China is an authoritarian, despotic, militaristic, and morally bankrupt nation. Quite frankly I can`t think of any redeeming features that China gives to this world. I`m glad the this `new red scare` seems to be taking place because it will force the West and other civilized nations to stand up to China...…….a bully in every sense of the term.


The Chinese economy is a house of cards built on manufactured money, a centrally controlled stock exchange, industrial espionage, sadistic human rights violations, and a shadow banking system. Thankfully it will take little to top it over and this is what the West must do to secure our future prosperity and peace. This mafia state must be brought to it`s knees immediately for the good of everyone else on this planet.
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  #70  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2018, 11:11 AM
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The Chemist...………………….You state that all this seems like a `new red scare` and you are right. The West and all civilized, peaceful nations and human rights respecting people of the world have a LOT to be scared of when it comes to China.

China is an authoritarian, despotic, militaristic, and morally bankrupt nation. Quite frankly I can`t think of any redeeming features that China gives to this world. I`m glad the this `new red scare` seems to be taking place because it will force the West and other civilized nations to stand up to China...…….a bully in every sense of the term.


The Chinese economy is a house of cards built on manufactured money, a centrally controlled stock exchange, industrial espionage, sadistic human rights violations, and a shadow banking system. Thankfully it will take little to top it over and this is what the West must do to secure our future prosperity and peace. This mafia state must be brought to it`s knees immediately for the good of everyone else on this planet.
What did China do to you that you have such a personal hatred of the country? I remember you being all up in arms a while back that there was Chinese on signs in Vancouver's airport, which combined with your over the top rhetoric in this thread to me says you're taking this far too personally.

People have been predicting the downfall of China for the past 20+ years and it hasn't happened yet, so I'm thinking your 'house of cards' claim is a little dubious.
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  #71  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2018, 5:26 PM
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What did China do to you that you have such a personal hatred of the country? I remember you being all up in arms a while back that there was Chinese on signs in Vancouver's airport, which combined with your over the top rhetoric in this thread to me says you're taking this far too personally.

People have been predicting the downfall of China for the past 20+ years and it hasn't happened yet, so I'm thinking your 'house of cards' claim is a little dubious.
It's what China does, and continues to do to the world (cyber attacks, fentanyl, falun gong, incarceration of Muslims in China), and more importantly at the moment the detainment of fellow Canadians on flimsy grounds, that leads me to have great reservations about the country and more specifically its leadership. It looks like one of the Canucks isn't being treated so well (daily interrogations and constant exposure to light). I wonder how Meng is being treated? Oh right, out on bail in her own $5 mil house in Vancouver.

Detaining a teacher for a work visa issue? Really? A civilized response would be to ask her to leave the country.
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  #72  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2018, 5:52 PM
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What did China do to you that you have such a personal hatred of the country? I remember you being all up in arms a while back that there was Chinese on signs in Vancouver's airport, which combined with your over the top rhetoric in this thread to me says you're taking this far too personally.

People have been predicting the downfall of China for the past 20+ years and it hasn't happened yet, so I'm thinking your 'house of cards' claim is a little dubious.
ssiguy is some old fogey from back east who moved to Vancouver and saw the demographic change too much outside of his comfort zone. Every Asian face he sees on the street riles him up even more and he believes that by railing against China (and everything Chinese) he thinks that a large number of them will pack up and leave.
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  #73  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2018, 1:33 AM
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Washington Post reports China is holding Canadian Michael Kovrig in a cell with lights on 24/7 and consular access only once a month. Meanwhile Meng the Merciless cools her jets in luxury in one of two homes she squats on in the Vancouver property market.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.defeae70c8ed

Why hasn’t the Chinese ambassador been summoned and/or expelled from Ottawa?
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  #74  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2018, 1:52 AM
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  #75  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2018, 2:20 AM
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I think Canada made a huge mistake by turtling when that Prince threw a tantrum, which basically invited Xi’s hissy fit. I think a fairly significant economic retaliation is in order.
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  #76  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2018, 5:18 AM
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I think Canada made a huge mistake by turtling when that Prince threw a tantrum, which basically invited Xi’s hissy fit. I think a fairly significant economic retaliation is in order.
yeah, who would have thought electing this guy would invite consequence-free aggression from the international stage?



but in all seriousness.. as others have said the best move for Canada in this case would have been not to play
with no nukes and a defence budget half of the NATO standard, Canada really shouldn't be talking shit about shit to shit... nevermind doing shit with no plan B...

so embarrassing
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  #77  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2018, 5:44 AM
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  #78  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2018, 8:23 AM
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What did China do to you that you have such a personal hatred of the country? I remember you being all up in arms a while back that there was Chinese on signs in Vancouver's airport, which combined with your over the top rhetoric in this thread to me says you're taking this far too personally.

People have been predicting the downfall of China for the past 20+ years and it hasn't happened yet, so I'm thinking your 'house of cards' claim is a little dubious.
Or not.

China is not the economic superpower people think. That’s why it’s important to wait it out.

....The challenge China poses to the democratic world looks insurmountable because its path to economic dominance seems certain. China has more than a billion people. At even the modest growth rates of recent years, its economic clout will eventually dwarf that of the United States. It will then be able to draw on far greater material resources than its rivals and dictate terms to trading partners that cannot afford to alienate the world’s most indispensable market.

But as impressive as China’s performance has been, its future is anything but assured. And time is very much on the side of the democratic world. Consider the evidence. The pace of Chinese economic growth has fallen by more than half since 2007 and has become increasingly dependent on unsustainable growth in debt. The demographic picture, too, looks forbidding. China’s working-age population is declining and expected to fall by roughly 25 million people by 2030. And although lots of countries have suffered from anemic growth in productivity over the past decade, productivity in China appears to be declining and shows few signs of reviving...

....China is not the Soviet Union, but it is more like the U.S.S.R. than is often appreciated. Private Chinese firms account for just over half of industrial output — far more than the Soviets ever tolerated but hardly free-wheelingly capitalist. State firms are soaking up a growing share of new investment. Xi Jinping, who once held promise as a reformer, now preaches the virtues of state-driven development and stifles the voices of dissenting economists.

Thus, in a manner reminiscent of the late-stage Soviet economy, capital, driven by political imperatives, is piling up in wildly inefficient corners of the economy. With ever fewer workers entering the labor force, ever lower returns on new capital investments, and ever lower productivity, China must either change course in dramatic fashion or fall into a rut like that which doomed the Soviet Union. Either course will prove politically explosive.

The United States cannot force change in China and should be wary of policies that threaten to spark conflict or impoverish Chinese citizens. It should instead aim to limit malign elements of Chinese influence on the global economy while waiting patiently for the rot at the heart of the Chinese system to do its work...


https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...=.d3f0dde7b1bd
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  #79  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2018, 3:37 PM
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Or not.

China is not the economic superpower people think. That’s why it’s important to wait it out.

....The challenge China poses to the democratic world looks insurmountable because its path to economic dominance seems certain. China has more than a billion people. At even the modest growth rates of recent years, its economic clout will eventually dwarf that of the United States. It will then be able to draw on far greater material resources than its rivals and dictate terms to trading partners that cannot afford to alienate the world’s most indispensable market.

But as impressive as China’s performance has been, its future is anything but assured. And time is very much on the side of the democratic world. Consider the evidence. The pace of Chinese economic growth has fallen by more than half since 2007 and has become increasingly dependent on unsustainable growth in debt. The demographic picture, too, looks forbidding. China’s working-age population is declining and expected to fall by roughly 25 million people by 2030. And although lots of countries have suffered from anemic growth in productivity over the past decade, productivity in China appears to be declining and shows few signs of reviving...

....China is not the Soviet Union, but it is more like the U.S.S.R. than is often appreciated. Private Chinese firms account for just over half of industrial output — far more than the Soviets ever tolerated but hardly free-wheelingly capitalist. State firms are soaking up a growing share of new investment. Xi Jinping, who once held promise as a reformer, now preaches the virtues of state-driven development and stifles the voices of dissenting economists.

Thus, in a manner reminiscent of the late-stage Soviet economy, capital, driven by political imperatives, is piling up in wildly inefficient corners of the economy. With ever fewer workers entering the labor force, ever lower returns on new capital investments, and ever lower productivity, China must either change course in dramatic fashion or fall into a rut like that which doomed the Soviet Union. Either course will prove politically explosive.

The United States cannot force change in China and should be wary of policies that threaten to spark conflict or impoverish Chinese citizens. It should instead aim to limit malign elements of Chinese influence on the global economy while waiting patiently for the rot at the heart of the Chinese system to do its work...


https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...=.d3f0dde7b1bd
As somebody who lives in China, few people appreciate how much modernization China still has to go through. That's why I'm not the least bit worried about any demographic shortcomings in China's future.

Take urban snow clearing for example. Rather than get one machine to do the work of twenty people, it's 20 people. That's the kind of inefficiency that a demographic change in the paradigm will solve. With fewer people, efficiency will be forced on China and that will drive wages up, introduce progress in the social sphere (China is woefully behind the west in that regard) and hopefully give the people more room to breathe.

People also worry about Chinese dominance of the global economy. That may turn out to have a kernel of truth to it but to repeat it also exposes a somewhat more ignorant view of how China does things.

China is still a nominally communist country. The reality, however, is that it's the wild west of capitalism and it does next to nothing on a social level for the people it claims to represent. Also, Xi Jinping is an autocrat and really just wants to be dictator for life and drag China back into poverty on the basis of his ideological beliefs. He's a party member through and through, doesn't understand the rule of global law and doesn't seem the least bit interested in fixing the problems in his own backyard. His "solution" to most problems is akin to a bazooka on a gnat. I fear that he may well succeed in driving out foreign interest and investment in China. Despite the propaganda, he is absolutely not good for China's future in any facet. Either way, what he says gets printed, published and dictated to the people. Since the party always controls what gets said or told to the people, they only ever really get one side to every story. State media is one thing that China won't change and it will absolutely not work for China's economic future. The government is constantly tinkering with things and essentially squashing what made China the land of opportunity for the past few decades.

Another problem with Chinese business in the international realm is that it just doesn't know how to operate. The way things are done in China would absolutely not be tolerated in the west. For example, if you bought a brand new home and the first day it rained, your top floor suite got flooded with rainwater, you'd freak out, sue, and force the company to get its act together or go under. Not in China. In China "that's your problem...you pay for repairs." You just can't do that in the west. People have standards and expectations they expect to be met. What's more, in the west, the government is on their side and any company that tried that sort of thing would be driven out of business by the government if not customers. Business in the west has to take consumer concerns seriously. That's just not the case in China. That's why so many Chinese consumers will buy out western stock of any number of things if they get the chance. There is no pride of craftsmanship or love of a job well done. Quality is extremely difficult to come by and the truth is that if you want it, you have to buy from abroad. That's one reason why you can't buy a Chinese car outside of China for the most part, for example.

China's just not ready for the international marketplace and its days as a manufacturing hub are, while a long way off, numbered. Unless Xi gets his way. If he succeeds, he'll keep the masses down to keep China competitive. In fact, if given the chance, I suspect that he'd reintroduce full-fledged communism a la North Korea where people don't work for a company but for the state and everything is provided for by the state in return. It's all pure shit and the lowest level of existence but hey, it's "free".
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  #80  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2018, 4:33 PM
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China's just not ready for the international marketplace and its days as a manufacturing hub are, while a long way off, numbered. Unless Xi gets his way. If he succeeds, he'll keep the masses down to keep China competitive. In fact, if given the chance, I suspect that he'd reintroduce full-fledged communism a la North Korea where people don't work for a company but for the state and everything is provided for by the state in return. It's all pure shit and the lowest level of existence but hey, it's "free".
Do you picture President Xi becoming like Brezhnev? Being rigid and presiding over a period of stagnation?

Or will he eventually be ousted and replaced if he doesn't keep up the economic growth promises?
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