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  #21  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 4:33 PM
CoryB CoryB is offline
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Originally Posted by Winnipegger View Post
Given the Bay's size and the fact that it simply isn't feasible to be fully used by one tenant, it would be great if somehow the building could divided in to multiple spaces so that many small businesses could choose to operating in the building.
This sounds like basically replicating the model originally tried at The Forks Market. I have said for some time, someone needs to really do a deep dive on why The Forks Market moved away from that concept and create a plan on how those challenges can be avoided at a different site. Ideally this would also include the idea of a year round farmers market (produce in winter is likely a major challenge here) and the downtown grocery concept.

If the grocer in the Bay basement was such a profitable idea do you not think the same company that was running it before would be using their sales data to get it happening again ASAP? That they let it close and used the wind-down of Zellers as a cover story basically tells you everything you need to know.

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Originally Posted by Winnipegger View Post
I know this is probably a far-fetched question, but does anyone know the maintenance and utility costs for operating the Bay, along with the estimated cost of doing a proper renovation including opening up the middle? I'd imagine that it's likely financially unfeasible since there is next to no interest in doing anything with this structure by anyone.
No direct insight into the cost but for every existing square foot of space you need to either fully demo or retrofit there is an added cost, even without getting into something like the complex logistics of building a new exterior inside an existing building. So looking at the new Wawanesa building as a comparison, they are going to fully demo a couple of relatively small buildings to make way for their massive new building. If they were to try and put the same size project into the Bay building their cost per square foot would definitely be higher. That is one of the big challenges facing a redevelopment of the Bay. There is simply too many cheaper locations to develop a project downtown regardless of the type of project. The current surplus of existing office space also makes an office conversion a complete non-starter.

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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Office space would still be preferable for a building like that, though. I wonder if Skip the Dishes seriously looked at it? At first blush it looks perfect for a giant tech cube farm.
I am not sure if Skip specifically looked at the Bay but it has definitely been looked at for conversion to a number of different office projects over the years with the Hydro HQ project being one of the most public. Until demand for office space downtown catches up the the current supply there is zero economic support for an office conversion unless there was outside funding for the project such as a government incentive. With the current assurity pushes on all three levels of government those seem extremely unlikely right now.

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Originally Posted by drew View Post
I think long term, the only reasonable approach for a re-use of this building is to hollow out the interior.

It would benefit a few ways by reducing the floor area, making the floor area that is available more tenant friendly (i.e. windows), reduce the amount of interior space that requires conditioning (i.e. mechanical costs).
I am not sure hollowing out the Bay would actually reduce the conditioning costs. Yes, there would be less interior space to condition but it would also increase the amount of interior space directly adjacent to exterior walls so that would be a trade off.
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  #22  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 4:44 PM
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Originally Posted by CoryB View Post

If the grocer in the Bay basement was such a profitable idea do you not think the same company that was running it before would be using their sales data to get it happening again ASAP? That they let it close and used the wind-down of Zellers as a cover story basically tells you everything you need to know.
I think there might be something else at play here. That grocery was always busy every time I was in there and it wasn't exactly cheap either.
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  #23  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 4:48 PM
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Originally Posted by drew View Post

Once the Bay (inevitably) leaves this building, it will need to be completely gutted and redone regardless of who comes in after.
It isn't inevitable. To me the discussion should be, how do we help it, not what do we do with it after. Cutting a hole in the middle and redeveloping it costs $100-million. No private developer will do that without huge government subsidies. I've done half a dozen schemes for it. They always fail because of that. The best option is to work with the current owner and improve what they have. Stop with the megaproject mentality and support what is there from the ground up.

All of this 'we could do this' or 'we could do that'....who is we? Is the suggestion the government pony up tens of millions to redevelop the building...that is the only way any of the fantasies happen....no more megaprojects.

Last edited by trueviking; Nov 22, 2019 at 5:18 PM.
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  #24  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 4:53 PM
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Well, we can have the same argument we had with Eaton's. That one boiled down to the fact that the space wasn't economically viable but people had memories of it that made it too hard to see torn down. I personally was on the 'tear it down' side but the Bay has more architectural significance in my opinion.

The fact is that it won't be viable as it is so that means that it will have to be gutted in all likelihood. No sense tearing the whole thing down when it can be renovated even if also hollowed out. Could probably put a giant hole in the middle and build some sort of residential component while keeping a number of floors open for commercial or office space. I suspect the Bay will have to shift itself around within the building but the days of regal department stores are on the way out if not gone. No amount of cherished memories is going to change the fact that the downtown Bay is any sort of retail draw for anybody anymore.
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  #25  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 5:16 PM
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Eaton's was an empty building owned by a REIT. The Bay is occupied and owned by a department store.
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  #26  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 5:18 PM
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I know Portage Place is a different owner, but the buildings ARE linked by the skywalk, so I would hope that any discussion of redeveloping The Bay building might consider what is Planned for Portage Place. Perhaps lure several retailers to The Bay building that may want to support a residential component in Portage Place? One would think they could be planned to compliment each other.
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  #27  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 5:40 PM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
It isn't inevitable. To me the discussion should be, how do we help it, not what do we do with it after. Cutting a hole in the middle and redeveloping it costs $100-million. No private developer will do that without huge government subsidies. I've done half a dozen schemes for it. They always fail because of that. The best option is to work with the current owner and improve what they have. Stop with the megaproject mentality and support what is there from the ground up.

All of this 'we could do this' or 'we could do that'....who is we? Is the suggestion the government pony up tens of millions to redevelop the building...that is the only way any of the fantasies happen....no more megaprojects.
It's all going to cost money. Doesn't matter what happens.

If (and that's a huge if) the Bay continues to operate this location - they will at some point come looking for financial handouts of some description.

We (citizens of the City) need to determine at what cost the location and heritage of this building are worth it to keep. It all comes down to that. It's gonna cost money to keep the three pretty walls up while re-working the rest of the building into something useful.

And honestly, I don't think having the Bay occupy two floors while letting the building more or less waste away are in anyone's best interest, at least beyond the next decade or so. The department store ship has sailed.

Unless of course we write IKEA a blank cheque and tell them to relocate...
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  #28  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 6:17 PM
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There is a downtown Bay in Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton, Victoria, Regina and Saskatoon.

I don't think we can say the department store ship has sailed.

I completley disagree that we need to sit around and dream up megaprojects for the governemnt to pay for. ALL the discussion should be about how do we support the existing department store, in my opinion.
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  #29  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 6:18 PM
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We wrote IKEA a blank cheque when they came here....i think they cashed it for about $12-million
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  #30  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 6:50 PM
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u writing an artical about the bay as well viking?
i see national media is now picking up on this.............
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  #31  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 6:52 PM
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a grocery store in the bay building would be nice again. wonder why they didnt bother putting one back in?
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  #32  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 8:31 PM
EdwardTH EdwardTH is online now
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
There is a downtown Bay in Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton, Victoria, Regina and Saskatoon.

I don't think we can say the department store ship has sailed.

I completley disagree that we need to sit around and dream up megaprojects for the governemnt to pay for. ALL the discussion should be about how do we support the existing department store, in my opinion.
Agreed.... but if you can maintain retail on the 1st & 2nd floors, and the above floors are going to be empty anyway, could you not just partially convert those floors to condos or something? Just have units along one side or around the outside and leave the middle as-is but blocked off? If it's just going to be empty anyway...
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  #33  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2019, 1:58 AM
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Originally Posted by 1ajs View Post
a grocery store in the bay building would be nice again. wonder why they didnt bother putting one back in?
Because they sold their supply chain. Even before Zellers when it was still branded as The Bay’s, they had the Zellers supply chain - pretty much just had to add produce.
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  #34  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2019, 8:54 AM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
It isn't inevitable. To me the discussion should be, how do we help it, not what do we do with it after. Cutting a hole in the middle and redeveloping it costs $100-million. No private developer will do that without huge government subsidies.
Do any of these donut-ification schemes and numbers still maintain The Bay's presence at all, or is it a complete conversion and reuse of the whole building? Maintaining 1 or 2 floors of retail would be hugely beneficial for downtown, despite probably being extremely expensive just to bring existing spaces up to code.

It's a shame The Bay won't invest at all in the store. I imagine no longer owning the parkade probably doesn't help them out at all. I used to make the trip there but have switched to Polo Park instead as the downtown store stopped carrying a lot of brands I buy.
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  #35  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2019, 6:00 PM
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Here's an idea that goes outside the box a bit. It will no doubt raise squeals of protest and/or mocking comments, but here goes.

Why not use the top two or three floors of The Bay for a medical addictions/therapy/recovery centre? Part of it could be temporary "halfway" housing for people who have finished the addictions treatment but don't have a place to live yet.

A $40 million centre has already been proposed by Mark Chipman to deal with the issue. I think he suggested building a new place in Point Douglas, but part of his argument was that it be "close to downtown". I would think that an appropriate ambulance entrance could be built into the parkade somehow, and it's location is very convenient.

Apart from the cost ($40 million may go a long way towards making the space suitable) I would anticipate the most difficult thing with this idea is selling the optics of it. Apart from the contingent that believe addicts don't "deserve" treatment because of their personal weakness, etc. (in other words, jerks who should be ignored), there would probably be reluctance from business people who are afraid it would impact their bottom line, and folks who feel their safety would be threatened somehow.

So.....what does everyone think?
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  #36  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2019, 4:18 PM
CoryB CoryB is offline
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Originally Posted by OTA in Winnipeg View Post
I think there might be something else at play here. That grocery was always busy every time I was in there and it wasn't exactly cheap either.
Keep in mind groceries are one of the lowest margin sectors to be in. My guess is when Hudson Bay exited the grocery segment the numbers of what that department were making were shared with prospective companies and no one was willing to take on the level of risk (due mostly to theft) of running a grocery store at that location.

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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
There is a downtown Bay in Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton, Victoria, Regina and Saskatoon.

I don't think we can say the department store ship has sailed.

I completley disagree that we need to sit around and dream up megaprojects for the governemnt to pay for. ALL the discussion should be about how do we support the existing department store, in my opinion.
Most of those downtowns continue to have active retail well beyond a single location. The hard fact is retail in downtown Winnipeg died with the crash in the 80s and is never coming back. The ghost of the Hudsons Bay store will continue to haunt Portage and Vaughan until something meaningful takes over the space but it will never be a full, main line store in the chain again.

That said if you are serious about wanting to support it you need to tailor your life to shopping exclusively from that location unless it is something they do not sell (ie groceries). Even if it means you need to order it online and have it sent to the store for pickup. And not only do you need to do it but you need to talk non-stop about it to everyone you know to get them to do the same.

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Originally Posted by morty View Post
It's a shame The Bay won't invest at all in the store. [...] the downtown store stopped carrying a lot of brands I buy.
Winnipeg as a whole does not get a lot of the brands other cities get in Hudson Bay. The reason is the chain does not bring in brands that they cannot sell here.

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Originally Posted by 1ajs View Post
a grocery store in the bay building would be nice again. wonder why they didnt bother putting one back in?
Low margins, shrink (theft), no clear supply chain and no one willing to step in and take a chance on the space.
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  #37  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 2:05 AM
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I kinda agree with TrueViking about keeping the store in due to repeated failed mega projects. However, one of my favourite buildings in the world is the Hearst Tower in NYC. Sir Norman Foster's crown jewel built on top of a historic limestone facade is just great.

Can someone make a render with Norman Foster's 40 floors on top? The Bay could stay on the lower floors and a big company like GWL on top.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearst_Tower_(Manhattan)
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  #38  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 2:46 AM
LilZebra LilZebra is offline
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Originally Posted by CoryB View Post
Most of those downtowns continue to have active retail well beyond a single location. The hard fact is retail in downtown Winnipeg died with the crash in the 80s and is never coming back. The ghost of the Hudsons Bay store will continue to haunt Portage and Vaughan until something meaningful takes over the space but it will never be a full, main line store in the chain again.
Truviking is too young to remember, but once Unicity Mall (opened in 1975) St. Vital Centre (opened in 1979), the death knell for the downtown Hudsons Bay store began.

I remember our family going to the downtown Bay in the 1970s. If it were or weren't a doctor's trip, he'd drive us to The Bay parkade, walk down those stairs and cross the street to the Winnipeg Clinic. When I was about 10 or 11 or 12 my parents left me and my sister to the toy department all alone. We'd agree to meet inside the store by the parking kiosk where we came in. As GenXers there weren't as many kids like there are now. Those were the days!

But once the availability of suburban malls and "free parking" came to be, the people of the Greatest Generation (early 1900s), Silent Generation (1930s), Baby Boomers (1940s-1950s) didn't want to go downtown like they did prior to the mid-1970s here. Downtown became a place to go if you worked there or lived there. Not so much a place to shop. That's why the Boomers of the time thought of the failed Portage Place. They knew the ... was in.

Back then you could pay for your parking in the store or at the bottom of the ramp. The in-store kiosk parking thingy has be closed for decades now.


HBC (and Eaton's) used to have its own delivery trucks with its own staff. Now I guess HBC contracts out.

Things change. Accept change TV. The days of the downtown HBC store are numbered.


But now that suburban department stores are disappearing from the 'burbs, maybe 100 years from now we'll see a resurgence of the department store. Maybe in the 2110s the Eaton's and The Bay, or maybe something else, but the same concept of a multi-storey department store will come to be in downtown Winnipeg. I guess by then Winnipeg will have its very first subwway trains underneath Portage Ave. Better plan now for that TV.
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Last edited by LilZebra; Nov 27, 2019 at 2:59 AM.
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  #39  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 4:21 AM
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Originally Posted by LilZebra View Post
Truviking is too young to remember, but once Unicity Mall (opened in 1975) St. Vital Centre (opened in 1979), the death knell for the downtown Hudsons Bay store began.

I remember our family going to the downtown Bay in the 1970s. If it were or weren't a doctor's trip, he'd drive us to The Bay parkade, walk down those stairs and cross the street to the Winnipeg Clinic. When I was about 10 or 11 or 12 my parents left me and my sister to the toy department all alone. We'd agree to meet inside the store by the parking kiosk where we came in. As GenXers there weren't as many kids like there are now. Those were the days!

But once the availability of suburban malls and "free parking" came to be, the people of the Greatest Generation (early 1900s), Silent Generation (1930s), Baby Boomers (1940s-1950s) didn't want to go downtown like they did prior to the mid-1970s here. Downtown became a place to go if you worked there or lived there. Not so much a place to shop. That's why the Boomers of the time thought of the failed Portage Place. They knew the ... was in.

Back then you could pay for your parking in the store or at the bottom of the ramp. The in-store kiosk parking thingy has be closed for decades now.


HBC (and Eaton's) used to have its own delivery trucks with its own staff. Now I guess HBC contracts out.

Things change. Accept change TV. The days of the downtown HBC store are numbered.


But now that suburban department stores are disappearing from the 'burbs, maybe 100 years from now we'll see a resurgence of the department store. Maybe in the 2110s the Eaton's and The Bay, or maybe something else, but the same concept of a multi-storey department store will come to be in downtown Winnipeg. I guess by then Winnipeg will have its very first subwway trains underneath Portage Ave. Better plan now for that TV.
Sigh. The misconceptions continue.

The loss of significant retail downtown is not solely (or even partially) due to other shopping centres opening up in suburbia. If that were the case, then all or most major cities in Canada would have no retail left in their city centres, because we all know those cities have multiple suburban powerhouse shopping centres that compete with retail in the CBD. The "only in Winnipeg" negative, cynical stereotypical saying isn't going to cut it for this situation.

The loss of retail in our city centre has to do with socio-economic issues that plague the city, which started around 30-40 years ago and have been getting progressively worse. As soon as impoverished aboriginals started coming into the city en masse, and congregated in specific areas of the city (by choice or force), crime and neighbourhood deterioration had begun to increase dramatically.

But in saying that, people in this city have become psyched out about the city centre, and have been feeding off of eachothers fears that they will automatically be a victim of crime or literally die if they set foot in the city centre. Some people are actually stupid and gullible enough to believe that. When in reality it has never been this bad anywhere in this city. THIS is the reason significant retail is on it's last legs in our city centre. THIS is what needs to be address if we are to get to the core of the issue and have it resolved. But no one seems interested in doing so. As a result, my foolish fellow Winnipeggers will continue to cringe in fear of the city centre

Last edited by Pinus; Nov 27, 2019 at 4:31 AM.
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  #40  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2019, 4:43 AM
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