The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[skyscraper_1]

5000 workers! wow, that is nothing to cough at. SJ is going to boom, even if only for a few years. Great news

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by skyscraper_1

5000 workers! wow, that is nothing to cough at. SJ is going to boom, even if only for a few years. Great news

You think thats bad what about the proposed LNG petro chemical plant for Goldsboro NS. That's expected to have 3-4000 workers during construction and its a lot smaller than Saint.John.

[kwajo]

Originally Posted by someone123

I mean Saint John was a critical location in North America for well over a century before Halifax was even founded, yet everyone thinks of Halifax as the one rich in history.

Uhh..

The Saint John area was a minor outpost at best before the modern city was founded. Virtually nobody lived in what is now New Brunswick so the area's strategic value was limited.

As for Halifax, it has been larger and more prominent than Saint John for most of its history. Many interesting things did take place in Saint John but that does not mean that similar and perhaps more important events were not taking place elsewhere.

Well I guess I shouldn't have said "critical" but it was an established area for a long long time before Halifax was even inhabited. There is nothing minor about the outpost that it was though. It was the seat of operations for a french fur trading network and the gateway to the longest river system in Atlantic Canada (which was also the winter route to Quebec). Even when Halifax was founded, it replied on places like Saint John (amongst other maritime regions) to supply it with timber, livestock and food. Halifax had no real significance other than military for a long time, it was in a horrid agricultural area and the fishing wasn't as good as it was further up or down the coast.

Obviously both are important, but you shouldn't downplay Saint John's early history just because Halifax eventually overtook it, they both had their day in the sun.

It is also extremely easy to take minor historical events and spin them to sound much more dramatic than they really were.

Yes Halifax is very good at this.

[someone123]

There were tons of little fur trading posts practically everywhere. I don't think they were that interesting and they were nothing like the towns and cities that developed starting in the late 18th century. As for being the winter route to Quebec, well, nobody would have made the trip if they could have avoided it and either way New Brunswick had a tiny population. Imagine having to go from Saint John to Quebec City on snow shoes. It's not like there were highways or railways back then.

I don't really see what's special about selling lumber or livestock. Practically every North American settlement did back then, and cities still import primary industrial products like that.

I'm not trying to downplay Saint John's history, I'm simply sifting through some of your more questionable claims.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by kwajo

Well I guess I shouldn't have said "critical" but it was an established area for a long long time before Halifax was even inhabited. There is nothing minor about the outpost that it was though. It was the seat of operations for a french fur trading network and the gateway to the longest river system in Atlantic Canada (which was also the winter route to Quebec). Even when Halifax was founded, it replied on places like Saint John (amongst other maritime regions) to supply it with timber, livestock and food. Halifax had no real significance other than military for a long time, it was in a horrid agricultural area and the fishing wasn't as good as it was further up or down the coast.

Obviously both are important, but you shouldn't downplay Saint John's early history just because Halifax eventually overtook it, they both had their day in the sun.



Yes Halifax is very good at this.

What do you mean by that? I don't think Saint John's history is insignificant but I don't understand why you have to down play Halifax's historical significance.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by someone123

There were tons of little fur trading posts practically everywhere. I don't think they were that interesting and they were nothing like the towns and cities that developed starting in the late 18th century. As for being the winter route to Quebec, well, nobody would have made the trip if they could have avoided it and either way New Brunswick had a tiny population. Imagine having to go from Saint John to Quebec City on snow shoes. It's not like there were highways or railways back then.

I don't really see what's special about selling lumber or livestock. Practically every North American settlement did back then, and cities still import primary industrial products like that.

I'm not trying to downplay Saint John's history, I'm simply sifting through some of your more questionable claims.

It was all NS at one time until the the Saint John river became settled and thought they were to far away form Halifax and decided to become their own province. If had been not to many years later with the railroad they probably wouldn't have become their own province and we would all be one province today.

[MTL Lucas]

I was under the impression Saint John was, however briefly, the second or third largest city in the country for a period in the mid to late nineteenth century when it originally flourished?

I know from another thread http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=123807 that in 1901 SJ and Halifax were almost exactly the same size. I believe the chief difference in the stature of Halifax and Saint John was resultant of developments in the last 100 years - before that they seem on par.

Halifax clearly came to overshadow Saint John in the modern era but I do not believe it is an indulgence or exaggeration to say that is is of equal historical importance.

That being said I hope the thread doesn't go from present Moncton vs Saint John to past Halifax vs Saint John. I know we are an argumentative bunch, but.....

[ErickMontreal]

Natives bet on gambling

Article Tools
Daniel McHardie
Telegraph-Journal
Published Saturday February 24th, 2007

The Elsipogtog First Nation is hoping to reverse its chronically high unemployment and "Third World" living conditions through a sweeping economic development plan, calling for the construction of a racino in Moncton and a casino in Saint John.

Elsipogtog is a community of roughly 2,500 people nestled in Kent County yet Chief Susan Levi-Peters is looking beyond her traditional territory as she aspires to improve the living conditions of her people and the fortunes of the entire province.

The full details of her plan will become clear as early as next week and she is actively working with the federal, provincial and local governments trying to find financial partners to spur on her proposals.

"I'm a strong believer of peace and friendship. I'm a solid believer in the treaties. We survived over 500 years living side by side and today it has come down to it, that my people living in a Third World conditions," she said. "Instead of us going to a confrontation or something like that I'd prefer that we go into a partnership that develops the economy for all New Brunswick that deals with social, environment and economy."

Part of the plan is to build on New Brunswick's heritage of being the meeting place of the first European settlers and the First Nations in 1604. Levi-Peters envisions tourism venues established or enhanced focusing on various First Nations, as well as the Loyalists, Acadians and other groups that played a role in developing the province.

Those ideas will prove far less controversial than her plans to locate two gaming centres in New Brunswick.

The Elsipogtog chief is raising again the idea of building a racino complex on lands located just outside of Moncton.

The proposed site is marked by a Morning Sun sign facing the Trans-Canada Highway.

Further, Levi-Peters said she is examining the possibility of setting up a casino in Saint John, but unlike the racino concept she hasn't designated a location.

She said she is exploring the idea of a floating casino, as well as discussions are ongoing with a local hotel or trading property with the federal Coast Guard.

Undoubtedly there will be people who will oppose these gaming facilities, but the chief said but her vision is for First Nations communities to stop relying on other governments for cash.

"That is part of the plan because we want to be self-sufficient we don't want to rely on the government for the rest of our lives," she said.

"Because of our natural resources being depleted so much and instead of us going to confrontation in the woods"... maybe we can go in a different road and develop the economy in our communities, as well as New Brunswick. "

The gaming facilities and tourist attractions are among the revenue generating options the First Nation is exploring and that money will be used to start erasing the 500-unit backlog of housing that is needed on the Elsipogtog reserve and the 1,500-unit shortage on reserves across the province.

Elsipogtog isn't looking for any provincial funding for these projects, just a green light from the government.

"If they say today, 'We will say yes,' tomorrow I can start building my houses," she said.

Getting that approval could become a significant hurdle for the economic development plan considering the provincial government's ongoing opposition to casinos and racinos.

Finance Minister Victor Boudreau will release the government's gaming policy later this year and until that time he will not entertain questions on whether First Nations communities could unilaterally establish these venues on their own territory against the province's wishes.

"As it stands right now in the province of New Brunswick, casinos and racinos are not legal," Boudreau said.

Business New Brunswick Minister Greg Byrne said he is aware of work the First Nation has been doing with other partners.

Until he has a concrete proposal on his desk, Byrne said he can't speculate on how his department would react to any requests for financial help.

"I have to see a specific proposal before I could ascertain whether the department would be prepared to fund it or not," Byrne said.

"And again if we are talking about a proposal that deals with casinos and racinos, I think it would be premature before the government has a chance to address that issue with its policy."

While Levi-Peters spoke at great length about trying to sidestep any battles with provincial government over its gaming stance, it's clear the two sides could soon be on a collision course if the pending gaming policy slams the door on casinos or racinos.

The Assembly of First Nations' Chiefs in New Brunswick passed a resolution on Feb. 16, supporting the concept and established a First Nations Gaming Commission.

Levi-Peters said she believes as long as she got a licence from the newly formed commission, she could forge ahead with that element of her economic development roadmap.

The New Brunswick government isn't the only partner that Elsipogtog is approaching for backing.

The chief said she was encouraged by a letter she received from federal Indian and Northern Affairs Minister Jim Prentice, who has pledged Ottawa's support for her projects. Prentice's correspondence committed Ottawa to helping in any programs that do not include gaming.

"Indian and Northern Affairs Canada's economic development program does not fund the establishment of gaming ventures, however, there are intergovernmental and other economic development activities associated with this initiative where we can be of assistance," Prentice wrote on Feb. 22.

Levi-Peters described her plan as a virtuous circle for the province.

Once the history-themed gaming facilities and tourist attractions are created, that will provide jobs for people in those specific areas but also for artisans, craftspeople and other workers in communities across the province.

With those new tourist sites, the chief said the environment will be cleaned up or preserved as the locations show off the area's heritage.

Inside New Brunswick's First Nations communities, the Elsipogtog proposal is winning universal backing, the chief said.

Instead of trying to direct all the profits to her specific council, Levi-Peters said all 15 First Nations will be represented on the gaming council board and revenues will be divided up among the communities and even the provincial government.

"We would also like some revenue sharing with the province because like I told the politicians in the provincial government we would like to help out New Brunswick," Levi-Peters said. "We don't want to be a liability we want to be an asset, if we can share the revenues in helping with the hospitals and roads, then I think we've done our jobs."

[ErickMontreal]

Une autoroute qui inquiète

Mise à jour le samedi 24 février 2007, 14 h 12 .

Proposed





Un projet de construction d'une autoroute entre le Nouveau-Brunswick et le Maine suscite de l'inquiétude dans le nord de la province. Le chef de l'opposition conservatrice craint que si ce projet se réalisait, le développement économique dans les régions du nord serait sérieusement handicapé.

Le projet est dans l'air depuis des années, mais cette semaine le premier ministre Shawn Graham a confirmé avoir eu des discussions à ce sujet avec le gouverneur du Maine, John Baldacci. Il a évoqué « une route entre le Nouveau-Brunswick et le Maine pour le transport des biens par exemple. »

Le ministre provincial de l'Entreprise, Greg Byrne, dit que la route qui mène vers le poste frontalier de Saint-Stephen pourrait être transformée en autoroute, et la même chose serait faite du côté américain, jusqu'à Bangor.

Le ministre Byrne indique que cette voie rapide serait éventuellement prolongée jusqu'au Québec, afin de créer un lien plus rapide avec le centre du pays.

Pour sa part, le chef conservateur soutient qu'un tel corridor entre le sud du Nouveau-Brunswick et le centre du Canada isolerait le nord de la province.

Le projet est encore loin d'être réalisé, et le ministre Greg Byrne affirme qu'il faudra attendre, avant d'en savoir plus long, le rapport du comité de travail sur l'autosuffisance.

[someone123]

But put another way, Northern New Brunswickers are expecting that everybody drive hundreds of extra kilometres to artificially bring traffic through their region.

How reasonable is this?

It may be bad for them but it's not the fault of the rest of the region for wanting to do things efficiently based on simple facts of geography.

[Smevo]

yeah, it would be nice to have a more direct route to Quebec and west, though you'd have to go through border security still which might slow things down depending on traffic and the like. I think this highway would be good, I hope they go through with it.

[skyscraper_1]

This highway is long overdue...Northern New Brunswick will just have to find another strategic advantage.

[kirjtc2]

If this was 20 years ago, great. But it's not going to work now with the US passport requirements coming up.

The border's more real than they think. Take a look at a map of western New Brunswick and northern Maine. The new twinned TCH will be open later this year. Now Maine is planning to twin highway 1 between Presque Isle and Houlton. So you'll have two twinned highways running in the same general direction, 20 km apart from each other, through sparsely populated territory. If the border wasn't there, does anyone think both highways would be there?

[ErickMontreal]

I always thought Mccalister Place could need more retail space so to attract more quality stores in town. I made a revitalization plan for mall including expansion in Zellers store, build of new wing and renovation of current public space as well. I suppose Zellers will move out of mall. This redevelopement could add more than 40 retail opportunities. However i do not think the Saint John market could support that kind of development by now. By 2010, this is something its could be possible or at least planned

( Mccalister Place Redevelopement – Saint John - New-Brunswick )


( Current – Mccalister place – Saint John - New-Brunswick )
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( New – Mccalister place – Saint John - New-Brunswick )
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( Stores )

Already added or planned : Roots, International Clothier, Ricki's , RWCO.

SJ could try to attract: Faiweather, Chapters, Costco, Gap, Mexx, Jacob, Sony Store, Danier, Dynamite, Aldo, Eddie Bauer, Tommy Hilfiger, Dtox, Second Cup, Starbucks.

[MTL Lucas]

Originally Posted by Smevo

yeah, it would be nice to have a more direct route to Quebec and west, though you'd have to go through border security still which might slow things down depending on traffic and the like. I think this highway would be good, I hope they go through with it.

That road needs to be built. When I look on a map, Toronto is as far from Montreal as Saint John. However, because of the detour through Northern NB the trip from SJ to MTL takes from 9 to 10 hours and the trip from MTL to Toronto takes about 5 1/2. Even with delays at the border it would be much quicker, reducing travel time by roughly 40%.

I, for one, would be in SJ much more often if the drive from Montreal was 6 hours instead of 10.

[MTL Lucas]

Originally Posted by HalifaxMtl666

I always thought Mccalister Place could need more retail space so to attract more quality stores in town. I made a revitalization plan for mall including expansion in Zellers store, build of new wing and renovation of current public space as well. I suppose Zellers will move out of mall. This redevelopement could add more than 40 retail opportunities. However i do not think the Saint John market could support that kind of development by now. By 2010, this is something its could be possible or at least planned

( Mccalister Place Redevelopement – Saint John - New-Brunswick )


( Current – Mccalister place – Saint John - New-Brunswick )
_____________________________________________________________________________





( New – Mccalister place – Saint John - New-Brunswick )
_____________________________________________________________________________



( Stores )

Already added or planned : Roots, International Clothier, Ricki's , RWCO.

SJ could try to attract: Faiweather, Chapters, Costco, Gap, Mexx, Jacob, Sony Store, Danier, Dynamite, Aldo, Eddie Bauer, Tommy Hilfiger, Dtox, Second Cup, Starbucks.

I think this is a great plan!

There are SO many Zellers in Saint John - I think the company could easily close this outlet (and set up or build a more modern one nearby). McAllister Place could do alot with the extra space - it will need to do something to avoid the fate of Parkway.

[kirjtc2]

I don't know why a lot of the chains you mentioned have shied away from Saint John. Is it the demographics? Especially when you consider that of the chains you listed, even Fredericton has Fairweather, Chapters, the Sony Store, Aldo, Second Cup and Starbucks.

Costco, FWIW, is on the record saying they will be in both Saint John and Fredericton by 2009 or thereabouts.

[brandenp]

Originally Posted by kirjtc2

I don't know why a lot of the chains you mentioned have shied away from Saint John. Is it the demographics? Especially when you consider that of the chains you listed, even Fredericton has Fairweather, Chapters, the Sony Store, Aldo, Second Cup and Starbucks.

Costco, FWIW, is on the record saying they will be in both Saint John and Fredericton by 2009 or thereabouts.

.... We had the Sony Store for many many years.... When their lease expired, they just decided not to renew it

[ErickMontreal]

Originally Posted by kirjtc2

I don't know why a lot of the chains you mentioned have shied away from Saint John. Is it the demographics? Especially when you consider that of the chains you listed, even Fredericton has Fairweather, Chapters, the Sony Store, Aldo, Second Cup and Starbucks.

Costco, FWIW, is on the record saying they will be in both Saint John and Fredericton by 2009 or thereabouts.

I think, between 1995 and 2002 the demographic collapse, the poverty rate, the household income, Moncton proximity, unemployment rate as well could be the reasons SJ has had problems to attract retailers

[PersonPlaceorThing]

I suspect that any retail centre trying to remain competitive must take stock of market demand. The “de-malling” of many malls and the proliferation of big box and strip retail would give me pause if I were redesigning McAllister Place. A redesign creating more common area - and more common area charges - is likely to chase away some current retails and would not likely attract retailers who are moving toward more self contained and strip mall presences.