Winnipeg Roads & Infrastructure

[bomberjet]

Maybe temporary for construction? I'm, not sure how far along that project is.

[Kinguni]

Originally Posted by wardlow

Walking home from work last night, I noticed the city's public works department has apparently taken away the pedestrian cross/do not cross signals across Osborne St. North on the south side of the intersection of St. Mary Ave. and Osborne N. I guess downtown's sole purpose is to accommodate quick and easy motor vehicle movement.

It's due to the construction. Once it's done the crossing will be back.

[esquire]

I was driving over the Bishop/Kenaston interchange and was wondering why it was built in such a needlessly complicated way with stoplights and crossovers instead of a simple, freeflowing trumpet interchange style?



Is the westward extension of Bishop Grandin supposed to happen so soon that it justifies the weird and inconvenient current layout?

[Winnipegger]

Originally Posted by esquire

I was driving over the Bishop/Kenaston interchange and was wondering why it was built in such a needlessly complicated way with stoplights and crossovers instead of a simple, freeflowing trumpet interchange style?


Is the westward extension of Bishop Grandin supposed to happen so soon that it justifies the weird and inconvenient current layout?

I don't think there are any realistic plans to extend, significantly widen, or improve any aspect of the flow of the ring road within the next 10 years.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Winnipegger

I don't think there are any realistic plans to extend, significantly widen, or improve any aspect of the flow of the ring road within the next 10 years.

CPT from Main to Route 90 is likely within the next 10 years and is part of the inner ring road network. There is also likely movement happening on the northeast side of the network (Lag to Plessis for CPT) in that time frame. Additionally HWY 1 and Plessis bridge is likely to be rebuilt within the next 10 years and is indirectly part of the network.

There was also movement on a southern extension to William Clement, another part of the inner ring road, until meddling by councilors killed it and lead to most of the city's traffic engineers to leave essentially in protest.

[Winnipegger]

Originally Posted by CoryB

CPT from Main to Route 90 is likely within the next 10 years and is part of the inner ring road network. There is also likely movement happening on the northeast side of the network (Lag to Plessis for CPT) in that time frame. Additionally HWY 1 and Plessis bridge is likely to be rebuilt within the next 10 years and is indirectly part of the network.

There was also movement on a southern extension to William Clement, another part of the inner ring road, until meddling by councilors killed it and lead to most of the city's traffic engineers to leave essentially in protest.

Main to Route 90 is currently on the city's unfunded list with the latest public estimate being $500 million, which means that no funding source has been secured to finance this project. Given that the City currently has less than $200 million in debt capacity, this project likely won't get off the ground in the next 10 years unless the feds/province kick in over 50% and even then, the City is in the middle of prioritizing most infrastructure projects given the limited funds available, so depending on how the cost/benefit analysis shakes out relative to other projects, it might get ranked higher or lower, too early to tell. Even if the City used up all its remaining debt capacity to do this ONE road project, it would have $0 left over to do anything else major (e.g. Arlington Bridge, North End Transit Garage replacement, Keneston widening, BRT, community centres, etc.)

The needed rehab of the bridge at Lag and Concordia is also unfunded, as is the interchange for Lag and Fermor. So my guess is they are still trying to figure out where these projects shake out in the extensive "things we gotta do but have no money for" list.

The City's unfunded list, which includes many ring road projects, totals over $4.9 billion. The City literally has no money to do most of these projects as its available debt room is enough to do maybe one or two smaller projects. Maybe maybe maybe if some levels of government end up funding the North End Sewage plant project, that might open up some room to do a project or two. But overall, it's not looking good.

[Spocket]

This is something that I have to give the US credit for: When it comes to highways, they do them right. They're big on funding national roadway projects and that's why you'll find interstates going through states like Wyoming and Montana despite their very low population densities.

If the feds actually put the gas taxes they collect towards their stated intentions for them, we wouldn't have these problems. Or, perhaps I'm misinformed and they've actually shelled out more than they've collected over the past few years?

[bomberjet]

The Kenaston fly-over is designed to accommodate the western extension of Bishop. Bishop would pass underneath relatively straight.

The traffic lights thing is a silly by product of that.

[Spocket]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

The Kenaston fly-over is designed to accommodate the western extension of Bishop. Bishop would pass underneath relatively straight.

The traffic lights thing is a silly by product of that.

Yeah but we already know that Winnipeg will never pay for a stack interchange of any kind which leaves me puzzled concerning the ultimate configuration. I suppose if they don't plan on doing any sort of NE to SW it makes a certain kind of sense but otherwise I'm not seeing it. Curious, though, about the ultimate plan at full build out.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Winnipegger

Main to Route 90 is currently on the city's unfunded list with the latest public estimate being $500 million, which means that no funding source has been secured to finance this project.

One of the big challenges with CPT from Main to Route 90 is it is a critical project for the continued growth of the city similar to Kenaston From Bishop to the Perimeter and the Bishop and Kenaston overpass. Outside of the Waverly West area that section of Winnipeg has been the fastest growing for some time but with no new road projects since McPhillips was twinned about 20 years ago. With landing inside the city that can be developed and continue to support further growth some of these projects, such as CPT west, CPT east and William Clement south are going to seeming "cut the line" and jump ahead of other projects like Route 90 widening if funds are running short. The Archibald/Marion/Lag/Dugald area could be another hot spot if the stockyards development ever starts to move forward.

[bomberjet]

Originally Posted by Spocket

Yeah but we already know that Winnipeg will never pay for a stack interchange of any kind which leaves me puzzled concerning the ultimate configuration. I suppose if they don't plan on doing any sort of NE to SW it makes a certain kind of sense but otherwise I'm not seeing it. Curious, though, about the ultimate plan at full build out.

I doubt it'd be a true stack. They'll probably have a couple loops in there. I also don't think there would be access from NB Kenaston to WB Bishop. Seems like a tight angle and access could be achieved from another location in the west.

But ya, there's zero dollars for it. The City is looking at starting the WATS study back up next year (yes that's what they're calling it). Inner ring road study that was scheduled for last year, but was not funded.

[Winnipegger]

Originally Posted by CoryB

One of the big challenges with CPT from Main to Route 90 is it is a critical project for the continued growth of the city similar to Kenaston From Bishop to the Perimeter and the Bishop and Kenaston overpass. Outside of the Waverly West area that section of Winnipeg has been the fastest growing for some time but with no new road projects since McPhillips was twinned about 20 years ago. With landing inside the city that can be developed and continue to support further growth some of these projects, such as CPT west, CPT east and William Clement south are going to seeming "cut the line" and jump ahead of other projects like Route 90 widening if funds are running short. The Archibald/Marion/Lag/Dugald area could be another hot spot if the stockyards development ever starts to move forward.

And one of the big challenges of enabling growth is trying to finance it. The additional growth that could be "accommodated" in that area if CPT were to ever be extended at a $500 million price tag would hardly, if at all, pay for the incremental cost of doing the project.

For example, let's pretend that extending CPT would enable the development of a Waverley West-sized area in that part of the city that would not have otherwise taken place in the absence of extending CPT (i.e. no other suitable land exists elsewhere in Winnipeg that developers would want to develop). That means approximately 10,000 residential units paying an average municipal tax bill of around $2,800 would be added over a 20 or so year time frame. So, assuming it all got built out, the development would add $28 million to the City's tax base annually.

The road that would act as a catalyst for this development is estimated to cost $500 million. $28 million doesn't even come close to covering 10% of its cost. Even if you play around with some assumptions (average tax, number of units, new non-residential property tax), the numbers are still way far off. What's worse is that obviously the new tax revenue from a new development doesn't get 100% shoveled to roadways, 90% of it goes to other city services such as police, fire, recreation, and transit. So after we finish paying for other services needed to accommodate that new neighborhood, we're left with about $2.8 million from the new development that could go towards funding roadways. Even if the city used 100% of that $2.8 million to go towards paying for the CPT extension, that's enough money for the city to finance a loan of less than $30 million over 30 years.

At the end of the day, the current property tax rates in Winnipeg simply aren't high enough to support the cost of new infrastructure, ring roads included. The impact fee was supposed to alleviate some of that, but that money is tied up due to the developer-led lawsuit.

[Andy6]

Why not plan for all of the major growth to be in the south and benefit from economies of scale when it comes to infrastructure?

[vjose32]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Why not plan for all of the major growth to be in the south and benefit from economies of scale when it comes to infrastructure?

Oh so let’s just continue to ignore everyone in the north

[bomberjet]

The south end of the City is full up to the Perimeter. We'd have to go south of 101 for even more development there. Which will happen one day. The north side has open land within city boundaries, much like the south end did before Bishop. The north side ahs also seen lots of new housing over the last couple decades.

I hear that tone from a lot of people. "The south end is where you want to be." Like what in a sea of pink houses or..??

[esquire]

If we're going to ban development on the north side, how about we go one further and ban all suburban development? There is plenty of capacity for more intensive use of the vast swaths of land the city already takes up...

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Why not plan for all of the major growth to be in the south and benefit from economies of scale when it comes to infrastructure?

The problem is the city is almost completely maxed out on land that can be developed south of Bishop and west of Lag. Sure there is still a big chunk inside the southwest Perimeter that isn't developed but that is outside the City of Winnipeg boundaries. Even if the City were able to easily annex that land it would need similar infrastructure build out to what is happening on the lands inside city boundaries in the northwest.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by Winnipegger

And one of the big challenges of enabling growth is trying to finance it. The additional growth that could be "accommodated" in that area if CPT were to ever be extended at a $500 million price tag would hardly, if at all, pay for the incremental cost of doing the project.

For example, let's pretend that extending CPT would enable the development of a Waverley West-sized area in that part of the city that would not have otherwise taken place in the absence of extending CPT (i.e. no other suitable land exists elsewhere in Winnipeg that developers would want to develop). That means approximately 10,000 residential units paying an average municipal tax bill of around $2,800 would be added over a 20 or so year time frame. So, assuming it all got built out, the development would add $28 million to the City's tax base annually.

The road that would act as a catalyst for this development is estimated to cost $500 million. $28 million doesn't even come close to covering 10% of its cost. Even if you play around with some assumptions (average tax, number of units, new non-residential property tax), the numbers are still way far off. What's worse is that obviously the new tax revenue from a new development doesn't get 100% shoveled to roadways, 90% of it goes to other city services such as police, fire, recreation, and transit. So after we finish paying for other services needed to accommodate that new neighborhood, we're left with about $2.8 million from the new development that could go towards funding roadways. Even if the city used 100% of that $2.8 million to go towards paying for the CPT extension, that's enough money for the city to finance a loan of less than $30 million over 30 years.

At the end of the day, the current property tax rates in Winnipeg simply aren't high enough to support the cost of new infrastructure, ring roads included. The impact fee was supposed to alleviate some of that, but that money is tied up due to the developer-led lawsuit.

The City wouldn't be taking on a $500 million project on their own. They would only go for it if it were cost shared 3 ways, with the feds and the province.

[wardlow]

Originally Posted by CoryB

The problem is the city is almost completely maxed out on land that can be developed south of Bishop and west of Lag. Sure there is still a big chunk inside the southwest Perimeter that isn't developed but that is outside the City of Winnipeg boundaries. Even if the City were able to easily annex that land it would need similar infrastructure build out to what is happening on the lands inside city boundaries in the northwest.

If current growth rates, market demand, and development patterns continue, the City won't be running out of greenfield land for another generation. And that's not even considering the designated Agricultural land within City limits (most of which is south of the Perimeter).

I don't see how it's a 'problem' that very little of this available land is south of Bishop Grandin. That's like saying it was a problem River Heights had run out of available greenfield land by 1955 -- it's going to happen at some point.

[esquire]

^ I think the point is that there will be steep infrastructure costs associated with new development regardless of where the development goes. It's not like cramming it all in the south end of the city lets you dodge a bill for a new road...the savings from a cancelled CPT extension would end up going into building up the capacity of roads in the south end.

It's the new development itself that costs money, not its location.