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  #61  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2019, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
I can't see any scenario that would see the country trying to "evict" a province. Far more likely would be the creation of conditions that would oblige a province to bend to the national will or attempt to secede.
Certainly not over Bill 21, which is what vid was not-so-subtly hinting at.
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  #62  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2019, 11:10 PM
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Certainly not over Bill 21, which is what vid was not-so-subtly hinting at.
No. All that remains to be seen is whether the SCC upholds the validity of that legislation.
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  #63  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2019, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
Not at all.

I think you are misunderstanding me. I love Quebec and know it well. It IS unique in Canada and indeed in all of the Western Hemisphere due to it's linguistic and cultural background. What applies to Quebec in it's social and political environments are often quite different from those in the ROC especially from Western Canada. I am from London and went to Carleton so I am an Ontarian at heart and so I don't hold this anti-Quebec mentality that you get out here from people who have never even been there. Hell most BCers haven't been east of Winnipeg.

I would very much regret an independent Quebec and would consider it a great loss to Canada and it's soul. That however changes nothing. Canada would impose the harshest of terms and the stereotypical nice and diplomatic Canadian would be thrown out the window.
I am coming at this from a position where I think that for a lot of Anglo-Canadians (even if many would be wont to admit it), Quebec independence
might almost come as a relief.

And I think that this is true of a lot of people who don't necessarily harbour much ill-will towards Quebec. Many don't want Quebec to separate but feel that it's going to happen anyway, at some point in the future whether it's 10 years, 50 years or 100 years.

The idea that it just *might* be Quebec's unavoidable destiny has quite a bit of traction. I admit to thinking this myself sometimes.

And so the reaction of more people than you might think could actually be: "OK, they finally did it. Now at least we can get on with our lives as Canadians".

I am sure some will deny it exists to any appreciable agree but you will sense it if you dig deep enough - and if I hear it as a guy with a French name who lives in Quebec, it's gotta be there if you open your eyes and ears and you're John Smith from Weyburn.

As I said, this is a different crowd and sentiment from the "kick the French buggers out and send 'em back to France" set which also exists but only as a minority in Anglo-Canada.

So if you add everything up I think that in the case of independence the main focus would be on stuff like minimizing the hit to the remaining country's economy (especially Ontario's), maintaining an open land route to Atlantic Canada, and not having an unstable basket case dog's breakfast neighbour nation right in the middle of two constituent parts of Canada (obviously without giving the house away to a departing Quebec, of course).

"Punishing" Quebec for breaking up Canada is probably not too high on the list.
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  #64  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2019, 11:48 PM
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascad...dence_movement)

Maybe not quite on topic, but interesting nonetheless. Washington State seems very serious about a highspeed rail connecting Portland, Seattle and Vancouver. If Vancouver was only a 40 minute train ride away from Seattle, that would intertwine the region so closely, their would be a comfort and familiarity that could take such a movement to the next stage.
Culturally Cascadia is already a thing.
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  #65  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2019, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post

So if you add everything up I think that in the case of independence the main focus would be on stuff like minimizing the hit to the remaining country's economy (especially Ontario's), maintaining an open land route to Atlantic Canada, and not having an unstable basket case dog's breakfast neighbour nation right in the middle of two constituent parts of Canada (obviously without giving the house away to a departing Quebec, of course).

"Punishing" Quebec for breaking up Canada is probably not too high on the list.
Quebec would then be undergoing a 70s-style exodus of people, businesses, and capital, which would probably overheat Ontario's economy, if anything. If Canada had to go through a foreign country to get to Atlantic Canada, why not take the more direct route through the U.S.? - I don't see Quebec having a lot of leverage there.
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  #66  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2019, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Certainly not over Bill 21, which is what vid was not-so-subtly hinting at.
Kind of but not really. Racism is a Canadian Value, and as much as Quebec might want to try, I live in the capital of racism itself.

More than half of Canadians want to rip that yarmulke off every Jewish bureaucrat's head and who am I to tell them to stop? Laicite is well on its way to being a Canadian value and I say, why stop with positions? Let's do thoughts, too!

Last edited by vid; Oct 27, 2019 at 12:40 AM. Reason: wasnt provokative enough
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  #67  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2019, 12:37 AM
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Kind of but not really. Racism is a Canadian Value, and as much as Quebec might want to try, I live in the capital of racism itself.

More than half of Canadians want to rip that yarmulke off every Jewish bureaucrat's head and who am I to tell them to stop?
Racism is a human trait found in every country on Earth.
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  #68  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2019, 12:40 AM
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Racism is a human trait found in every country on Earth.
True.
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  #69  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2019, 2:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Andy6 View Post
Quebec would then be undergoing a 70s-style exodus of people, businesses, and capital, which would probably overheat Ontario's economy, if anything. If Canada had to go through a foreign country to get to Atlantic Canada, why not take the more direct route through the U.S.? - I don't see Quebec having a lot of leverage there.
Unless you're imagining a Quebec with closed borders, I'm not sure how "leverage" enters into it.
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  #70  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2019, 2:41 AM
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Who says Quebec is the one that closes the border?
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  #71  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2019, 2:50 AM
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Who says Quebec is the one that closes the border?
Why would Canada unilaterally close the border with Quebec and deprive itself of a land route between Ontario and Atlantic Canada?
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  #72  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2019, 3:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Andy6 View Post
If Canada had to go through a foreign country to get to Atlantic Canada, why not take the more direct route through the U.S.? - .
The only way it's more direct at the moment is as the crow flies. Otherwise it is longer and slower. It could be improved though but this would require hundreds of millions of dollars of highway investment on American territory.

You also would have all those trucks with freight crossing the U.S. border with the hassles that entails. Though I admit border controls imposed by the Americans are right now as tight as they are gonna get. If they do change it's likely it will be to loosen them up.

Whether or not a hypothetical border with Quebec would be tighter or looser than the one with the U.S. is totally hypothetical at the moment.

The odd situation of needing new and upgraded highway infrastructure on another country's territory, and how it would be related to the desire to spite Quebec, seems a bit bizarre though I guess not entirely impossible. I suppose that the Americans might consider funding the work themselves if they think the pass-through traffic will provide economic spinoffs making it worth their while...
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  #73  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2019, 3:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Andy6 View Post
Quebec would then be undergoing a 70s-style exodus of people, businesses, and capital, which would probably overheat Ontario's economy, if anything..
So you'd advocate making things even worse?
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  #74  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2019, 3:21 AM
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Rail lines from Ontario across the NE US to New Brunswick are also sub-optimal and would require some pretty major investments if they were to become the main routes between the two regions.
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  #75  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2019, 3:24 AM
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Do you think I'll regret posting "Haha, we're actually discussing this as if it might happen! "?

Acajack is like the centrist version of those trans people that have total meltdowns when you call them "she" instead of "they".

Last edited by vid; Oct 27, 2019 at 3:35 AM.
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  #76  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2019, 4:04 AM
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Originally Posted by vid View Post
Do you think I'll regret posting "Haha, we're actually discussing this as if it might happen! "?

Acajack is like the centrist version of those trans people that have total meltdowns when you call them "she" instead of "they".
This is yet another of those bizarre obscure characterizations you like to make...
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  #77  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2019, 4:22 AM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
Unless you're imagining a Quebec with closed borders, I'm not sure how "leverage" enters into it.
I'm imagining that Quebec would be hoping to get a concession of some sort in return for not having closed borders, or at least for not selectively impeding the passage of people and goods through its territory. It would be sort of like if someone proposed building a national pipeline through Quebec, if you can imagine that scenario.
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  #78  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2019, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I am coming at this from a position where I think that for a lot of Anglo-Canadians (even if many would be wont to admit it), Quebec independence
might almost come as a relief.

And I think that this is true of a lot of people who don't necessarily harbour much ill-will towards Quebec. Many don't want Quebec to separate but feel that it's going to happen anyway, at some point in the future whether it's 10 years, 50 years or 100 years.

The idea that it just *might* be Quebec's unavoidable destiny has quite a bit of traction. I admit to thinking this myself sometimes.

And so the reaction of more people than you might think could actually be: "OK, they finally did it. Now at least we can get on with our lives as Canadians".

I am sure some will deny it exists to any appreciable agree but you will sense it if you dig deep enough - and if I hear it as a guy with a French name who lives in Quebec, it's gotta be there if you open your eyes and ears and you're John Smith from Weyburn.

As I said, this is a different crowd and sentiment from the "kick the French buggers out and send 'em back to France" set which also exists but only as a minority in Anglo-Canada.

So if you add everything up I think that in the case of independence the main focus would be on stuff like minimizing the hit to the remaining country's economy (especially Ontario's), maintaining an open land route to Atlantic Canada, and not having an unstable basket case dog's breakfast neighbour nation right in the middle of two constituent parts of Canada (obviously without giving the house away to a departing Quebec, of course).

"Punishing" Quebec for breaking up Canada is probably not too high on the list.
Interesting thought.

I'd imagine the remaining Francophone Canadians would be quite opposed to this- they'd be instantly a non-entity in a unilingual country.

Also, I'd wonder if it would be the straw that broke its back for the last Anglo-Quebecers.

Somewhere like Montreal has a lot more to lose by being part of an independent state, so there'd have to be a pretty large shift in Montreal's trade connections before you'd see a large scale endorsement. Same with Gatineau.

Maybe it'll happen - but I suspect the status quo may hold longer than one thinks. Belgium has been making it work for hundreds of years and doesn't seem to be going anywhere.
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  #79  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2019, 1:28 PM
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Interesting thought.

I'd imagine the remaining Francophone Canadians would be quite opposed to this- they'd be instantly a non-entity in a unilingual country.

Also, I'd wonder if it would be the straw that broke its back for the last Anglo-Quebecers.

Somewhere like Montreal has a lot more to lose by being part of an independent state, so there'd have to be a pretty large shift in Montreal's trade connections before you'd see a large scale endorsement. Same with Gatineau.

Maybe it'll happen - but I suspect the status quo may hold longer than one thinks. Belgium has been making it work for hundreds of years and doesn't seem to be going anywhere.
I suspect that any "good faith negotiations" would include guarantees for minority language communties.

Montreal would be the place in Quebec/Canada most affected by a split.

Belgium in it's current form is not much older than Canada.
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  #80  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2019, 3:15 PM
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I am coming at this from a position where I think that for a lot of Anglo-Canadians (even if many would be wont to admit it), Quebec independence
might almost come as a relief.

And I think that this is true of a lot of people who don't necessarily harbour much ill-will towards Quebec. Many don't want Quebec to separate but feel that it's going to happen anyway, at some point in the future whether it's 10 years, 50 years or 100 years.

The idea that it just *might* be Quebec's unavoidable destiny has quite a bit of traction. I admit to thinking this myself sometimes.

And so the reaction of more people than you might think could actually be: "OK, they finally did it. Now at least we can get on with our lives as Canadians".

I am sure some will deny it exists to any appreciable agree but you will sense it if you dig deep enough - and if I hear it as a guy with a French name who lives in Quebec, it's gotta be there if you open your eyes and ears and you're John Smith from Weyburn.

As I said, this is a different crowd and sentiment from the "kick the French buggers out and send 'em back to France" set which also exists but only as a minority in Anglo-Canada.

So if you add everything up I think that in the case of independence the main focus would be on stuff like minimizing the hit to the remaining country's economy (especially Ontario's), maintaining an open land route to Atlantic Canada, and not having an unstable basket case dog's breakfast neighbour nation right in the middle of two constituent parts of Canada (obviously without giving the house away to a departing Quebec, of course).

"Punishing" Quebec for breaking up Canada is probably not too high on the list.
I've long thought that as messy as the divorce process would be (for both sides), ultimately both Quebec and Anglo-Canada would be better off if we parted ways.

Maintaining free trade and a customs union would I'm sure be a priority on both sides. Quebec would have to figure out what exactly to do with Gatineau--you can't exactly have all those now-foreigners working in Canada's civil service, so there'd be a lot of unemployed people. That could be a great thing for independent Quebec: lots of experienced people to hire as they take on responsibilities that used to be the federal government. But for that to work, Quebec would have to have Gatineau be a substantial administrative centre, which would conflict with Quebec City as the capital. In any case, Quebec would want to ensure they stay; I imagine quite a few would relocate across the river to Ottawa during the divorce period in order to secure their future careers if Quebec didn't make it clear they'd have jobs with the Quebec civil service.

Preserving linguistic minority rights on both sides would probably be important. Canada-sans-Quebec would repeal official bilingualism, but some Ontario-style solution where French-language federal services are guaranteed in areas of the country with sizeable francophone populations would be in order. Along with guaranteed continuation of OB at the provincial level in New Brunswick. In exchange, Quebec would retain the existing service rights of the Anglo-Quebecer community.

One interesting sticking point could be immigration. I imagine the two countries, after the split, would pursue pretty different immigration policies. If there's an open border (which everyone would want as part of that free trade area and customs union), it could wreck the ability of the two countries to do that. One possible solution would be to have freedom of travel between the two countries, but not freedom of migration. You could have the border open with monitoring of potential illegal immigrants.

There'd be some talk in Canada-sans-Quebec about moving the capital, but I imagine it would stay in Ottawa, due to all that has been invested in that as well as nobody being able to agree on where the new capital should be or how it should be moved (ie. people in the east coast would likely protest a plan to move it to somewhere like Winnipeg to create an east-west compromise, everybody else would get mad if it was moving to Toronto, etc.). Splitting up the metropolitan area would create interesting complexities for Ottawa. Cross-border commuting would likely collapse, removing a big and nagging transportation problem. The civil service would lose its Gatinois employees, but it would also lose a lot of its workload too. It would also lose its sizeable office space in Hull. Could end up being a wash, overall (loss of Gatinois employees and Hull office space offset by reduction in the workforce and resulting reduction in office space needs). If the process got too messy or Quebec didn't make believable job assurances for the Gatinois employees of Canada, Ottawa could be inundated with migrants, which could get really messy (as I mentioned above).
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