Winnipeg | Portage and Main

[GarryEllice]

Originally Posted by CoryB

A huge precussor to any broaching the subject on if Portage and Main should be opened to pedestrians is having a functional and city-wide rapid transit network built out first including connections through downtown that aren't impacted by changes at Portage and Main.

So we have to spend billions on a city-wide RT network before we can even consider whether to add crosswalks at one downtown intersection? I think you've taken the goalposts and moved them into outer space.

[drew]

Opening Portage and Main MUST be looked at as simply one intersection acting in isolation!

Nevermind the hundreds of other intersections contributing their own effects to traffic, nothing to see there, move along.

[CoryB]

"Team Open" can either listen to the concerns of others or they can continue to try and minimize what others have to say on the subject and continue to see the status quo remain.

It isn't that people opposed the idea in the plebiscite so much as their disliked being talked down to and treated like idiots by "Team Open" (but closed minded).

You want to "win" you need to listen to the other side and address what they are saying.

Taking what could have been a forum post from here or anywhere else and pushing it forward as a proposal on how to address traffic concerns isn't fooling anyone. Plain and simple that level of information was officially lacking on the proposal bought forward for a vote and contributed heavily to why the No side won. Much like people are ignoring that the transit concerns need to be addressed in a meaningful way and not just some talking heads saying there will be "no impact".

[SJTOKO]

Originally Posted by CoryB

"Team Open" can either listen to the concerns of others or they can continue to try and minimize what others have to say on the subject and continue to see the status quo remain.

It isn't that people opposed the idea in the plebiscite so much as their disliked being talked down to and treated like idiots by "Team Open" (but closed minded).

You want to "win" you need to listen to the other side and address what they are saying.

Taking what could have been a forum post from here or anywhere else and pushing it forward as a proposal on how to address traffic concerns isn't fooling anyone. Plain and simple that level of information was officially lacking on the proposal bought forward for a vote and contributed heavily to why the No side won. Much like people are ignoring that the transit concerns need to be addressed in a meaningful way and not just some talking heads saying there will be "no impact".

On days like today, I simply walk a little further down Portage or Main to cross the street. As someone who just moved here, having the city's focal point drown in a pile of unsightly painted concrete is bewildering, especially since there are busy crosswalks a block away. All this talk of "people will be hit, traffic will get worse"... really? Please help me understand how adding one more set of lights and adding some life to P&W will be such a travesty?

[EdwardTH]

Originally Posted by CoryB

"Team Open" can either listen to the concerns of others or they can continue to try and minimize what others have to say on the subject and continue to see the status quo remain.

It isn't that people opposed the idea in the plebiscite so much as their disliked being talked down to and treated like idiots by "Team Open" (but closed minded).

You want to "win" you need to listen to the other side and address what they are saying.

Taking what could have been a forum post from here or anywhere else and pushing it forward as a proposal on how to address traffic concerns isn't fooling anyone. Plain and simple that level of information was officially lacking on the proposal bought forward for a vote and contributed heavily to why the No side won. Much like people are ignoring that the transit concerns need to be addressed in a meaningful way and not just some talking heads saying there will be "no impact".

There was a study. It showed traffic impact would be minimal, and north-south traffic on Main would be essentially unaffected. The study also said

"There will be an increase in travel time through the area after the crosswalks are restored, primarily to the turning movements at the Portage and Main intersection as they must yield to pedestrians. This poses a risk to cross-city travel as congestion and variability will increase on average. This, however, should be balanced with the improvements to mobility for non-auto users and progress towards the city's goals of a multi-modal and sustainable transportation system."

In other words, yes it will slow your commute down a couple minutes. Too bad, so sad because basically everything about our city's transportation network is 100% oriented towards cars and it's time to give other modes their fair share. Team Closed made it clear they weren't interested in listening to facts or making a small compromise to accomodate other modes of transportation. Also 100% of the derogatory and condescending comments I heard came from Team Closed.... they refused to really engage in debate and kept just saying the Open people were idiots and elitist hipsters.... I honestly have no idea how you can argue that stuff went the other way, look up literally any comments section related to this and tell me I'm wrong...

[pspeid]

^^ This has ALL been covered before ad nauseum. My personal opinion continues to be that opening P & M has more benefits than drawbacks. It doesn't mean I don't understand the points the "keep it closed" side are making, or that they don't have some legitimate traffic concerns, or that I live in happy rainbow unicorn fantasy land, but that the "big picture", as I see it, favours opening P & M.

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by CoryB

"Team Open" can either listen to the concerns of others or they can continue to try and minimize what others have to say on the subject and continue to see the status quo remain.

It isn't that people opposed the idea in the plebiscite so much as their disliked being talked down to and treated like idiots by "Team Open" (but closed minded).

You want to "win" you need to listen to the other side and address what they are saying.

Taking what could have been a forum post from here or anywhere else and pushing it forward as a proposal on how to address traffic concerns isn't fooling anyone. Plain and simple that level of information was officially lacking on the proposal bought forward for a vote and contributed heavily to why the No side won. Much like people are ignoring that the transit concerns need to be addressed in a meaningful way and not just some talking heads saying there will be "no impact".

The problem is that transit is a red herring. As drew said, in what world does it make sense to insist on solving a billion dollar problem before we tackle a 10-20 million dollar problem?

We've heard the complaints, but that snobbery accusation leveled from the closed crowd is also a red herring. The question is what's best for the city and it's insulting to humanity that claiming offense was a successful strategy. I honestly don't care who was more offensive... as along as we arrive at the best decision.

Traffic concerns are several and their factors are many. it doesn't come down to one intersection, and reducing it to that is kinda cheap.

And of course there will be some impact. I am an admitted impatient driver, but I cannot believe the horror that complainers will sumon if their commute is slowed down by 1-2 minutes. Every major city in the world is worse, and we should have thicker skin and a more functional downtown.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

The problem is that transit is a red herring. As drew said, in what world does it make sense to insist on solving a billion dollar problem before we tackle a 10-20 million dollar problem?

We've heard the complaints, but that snobbery accusation leveled from the closed crowd is also a red herring. The question is what's best for the city and it's insulting to humanity that claiming offense was a successful strategy. I honestly don't care who was more offensive... as along as we arrive at the best decision.

Traffic concerns are several and their factors are many. it doesn't come down to one intersection, and reducing it to that is kinda cheap.

And of course there will be some impact. I am an admitted impatient driver, but I cannot believe the horror that complainers will summon if their commute is slowed down by 1-2 minutes. Every major city in the world is worse, and we should have thicker skin and a more functional downtown.

I am the same way. But honestly, I think that if you were to do a complete analysis you'd find that the impact of a small construction project, like what's currently being done on Portage E, is way more disruptive, never mind what the impact is of larger more protracted projects like on Fermor at the moment. Even at that, we don't even come close to matching some of the worst possible traffic. Imagine if we could actually design and maintain a proper road network how breezy our commutes would be.

But yeah, since it has to be said over and over apparently, no, the opening of the intersection won't provoke Armageddon. The sooner, the better if you ask me, so we can move on to other things and stop wasting so much energy just trying to make a common sense move.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by SJTOKO

On days like today, I simply walk a little further down Portage or Main to cross the street. As someone who just moved here, having the city's focal point drown in a pile of unsightly painted concrete is bewildering, especially since there are busy crosswalks a block away. All this talk of "people will be hit, traffic will get worse"... really? Please help me understand how adding one more set of lights and adding some life to P&W will be such a travesty?

There is no understanding it because it won't.

[Andy6]

It’s not happening, so it’s a moot point anyway.

[optimusREIM]

Lol i volunteer to take a jackhammer to the barriers and force the city's hand

[The Jabroni]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Lol i volunteer to take a jackhammer to the barriers and force the city's hand

Where can one rent a wrecking ball, a bunch of sledgehammers, and some jackhammers?

Asking for a friend.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by The Jabroni

Where can one rent a wrecking ball, a bunch of sledgehammers, and some jackhammers?

Asking for a friend.

Anyone in for a surreptitious evening demolition? Weather is good, if we bring enough people I reckon it wouldn't take more than a few hours

[OTA in Winnipeg]

Originally Posted by The Jabroni

sledgehammers

I have two.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by SJTOKO

Please help me understand how adding one more set of lights and adding some life to P&W will be such a travesty?

Because the change is simply not needed. Basically four buildings east of Main St are impacted in a slightly negative way by the status quo.

Changing that would have negative ripple effects throughout downtown and likely result in a net loss of businesses downtown not to mention the added costs to transit.

As proposed last year the cost benefit analysis did not support the plan as presented.

"Team Close Minded Open" fails to grasp those basic concepts which is why they lost the vote.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Because the change is simply not needed. Basically four buildings east of Main St are impacted in a slightly negative way by the status quo.

Changing that would have negative ripple effects throughout downtown and likely result in a net loss of businesses downtown not to mention the added costs to transit.

As proposed last year the cost benefit analysis did not support the plan as presented.

"Team Close Minded Open" fails to grasp those basic concepts which is why they lost the vote.

The change is not needed but neither is your 5 minute commute time savings. If that's the standard we use to make decisions then we might as well all just give up on ever doing anything. Why would we do anything ever? After all, it isn't needed.

Let's do something nice for a god damned change! I don't give a damn about people's 5 minutes! I don't give a damn about transit being affected, it's a joke anyways! Let's try and make our city a little more livable without kowtowing to the city's "close-minded" psyche.

[StNorberter]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Because the change is simply not needed. Basically four buildings east of Main St are impacted in a slightly negative way by the status quo.

Changing that would have negative ripple effects throughout downtown and likely result in a net loss of businesses downtown not to mention the added costs to transit.

As proposed last year the cost benefit analysis did not support the plan as presented.

"Team Close Minded Open" fails to grasp those basic concepts which is why they lost the vote.

The vote was lost because the city decided to hold a referendum and then decided to totally abdicate their responsibility to inform the public. So you ended up with a group of passionate people having to volunteer to do the job the city was supposed to do ( educate the public) having to face off against perpetuated ignorance and disrespect from people whose entire purpose at that time was to get in front of the media to aid their re-election bid.

There were no reasonable arguments for keeping it closed, and all the vitriol and hatred I saw came from the "No" side. Usually the conversations went something like this:

Team No: I can't support opening P & M because its dangerous to pedestrians. People will get killed because it's too many lanes to cross

Team Yes: Actually the intersections with the highest number of fatalities aren't located near Portage and Main. And we already have several intersections that have more lanes where pedestrian crossings are successfully employed.

Team No: DON'T YOU TALK DOWN TO ME! HOW DARE YOU NOT RESPECT MY OPINION, YOU FUCKING ELITIST ASSHOLE!!!

[SJTOKO]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Because the change is simply not needed. Basically four buildings east of Main St are impacted in a slightly negative way by the status quo.

Changing that would have negative ripple effects throughout downtown and likely result in a net loss of businesses downtown not to mention the added costs to transit.

As proposed last year the cost benefit analysis did not support the plan as presented.

"Team Close Minded Open" fails to grasp those basic concepts which is why they lost the vote.

Are you at least open to the idea of fixing P&M up and making it more.... sightly? Can you not see the benefit in that? I haven't seen the studies and reports you're referring to, but I would think....call me crazy, but fixing the link between the two areas of the city that are experiencing growth i.e. private sector investment (the forks and the exchange)... would be... A HUGE PRIORITY! Again, I just moved here, and I hope you'll value an outsiders perspective, but when I want to get to The Forks from The Exchange, I go all the way down to the riverfront. Why? Because it's walkable... beautiful... etc. Was building it "necessary"... probably not. I want to go to Canada's most famous intersection and take it all in, but I, along with the various people who have visited me so far from Chicago, Halifax, San Francisco, AVOID it at all costs. It's a messy concrete monolith that is completely devoid of life. But, hey, leave it as is I guess.

[joshlemer]

If you've ever been to any larger city than Winnipeg, or indeed to any other busy intersection in Winnipeg, it's really clear that Team Closed obviously does not have a leg to stand on, if their arguments are pedestrian safety and congestion.

First of all, any concerns about pedestrian safety should probably be written off as concern trolling, considering that most of team-no live way out in the suburbs and most of team-yes neighbourhoods are in walking/biking distance to the intersection. Do you really think suburban motorists are so concerned about pedestrian safety, while actual pedestrians living downtown don't care about it?

Anyways the whole thing is so ridiculous because there's nothing at all special about this one intersection from a safety or congestion perspective. Here's a CBC article listing the top 10 most busy intersections in the city. Two of them rank as more busy than P&M and every single one of them, aside from P&M, is open to pedestrians, at least partially. Even main "highway style" intersections like Sterlying Lyon and Kennaston allow pedestrians without the sky falling.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by StNorberter

Team No: DON'T YOU TALK DOWN TO ME! HOW DARE YOU NOT RESPECT MY OPINION, YOU FUCKING ELITIST ASSHOLE!!!

Ha. I really need to play this card more often. Anyone who doesn't confirm my pre-conceived notions is a condescending elitist asshole!