Winnipeg | 300 Main St.- Phase II / 360 Main St. | ~142M | 465 Ft | 42F | U/C

[roccerfeller]

^ I wonder if that plays a role in making a similar set up a hard sell in downtown Winnipeg despite recent efforts.

Unless I'm mistaken, downtown Winnipeg and downtown Edmonton have very comparable populations (downtown Peg might be even more?)

[Pinus]

Originally Posted by roccerfeller

^ I wonder if that plays a role in making a similar set up a hard sell in downtown Winnipeg despite recent efforts.

Unless I'm mistaken, downtown Winnipeg and downtown Edmonton have very comparable populations (downtown Peg might be even more?)

Possibly, but it also didn't help that there was a full-line Save-On-Foods a few blocks away that has way more product selection at overall cheaper pricing.

[buzzg]

I can confirm (as I live a block away) there is a hill in St. B, on Enfield. It feels like Toronto, and I've never seen any other street in the city like it.

See:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.87719...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.87815...7i13312!8i6656

[trebor204]

Just saw some workers tape a part of Main Street north of Graham

[Wpg_Guy]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DgGHoC7VQAATCvt.jpg
Paul Hesse
‏

@Paul_Hesse
2h2 hours ago
More
Portage and Main construction update 1: Artis Reit residential tower at Main and Graham

[buzzg]

What are all those white things?

[DancingDuck]

Sandbags

[roccerfeller]

^ Excellent. Keep the pics coming!

Originally Posted by Pinus

Possibly, but it also didn't help that there was a full-line Save-On-Foods a few blocks away that has way more product selection at overall cheaper pricing.

Interesting. Is that save on foods still operatiinal? Or does Edmonton have no downtown grocers anymore

From what I can find online, From respective city sources, downtown Winnipeg has a larger population than downtown Edmonton by a fair bit. Downtown Winnipeg may be more spread out, but these two comparisons, while crude, are interesting to make as they are generally speaking much closer in size to each other than they are to Toronto or Vancouver which also have downtown grocers.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by buzzg

I can confirm (as I live a block away) there is a hill in St. B, on Enfield. It feels like Toronto, and I've never seen any other street in the city like it.

See:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.87719...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.87815...7i13312!8i6656

I was looking at buying a home on that street a couple years ago but the home was beginning to fall forward. I wonder if many of the homes there are having the same issue.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by roccerfeller

Interesting. Is that save on foods still operatiinal? Or does Edmonton have no downtown grocers anymore

From what I can find online, From respective city sources, downtown Winnipeg has a larger population than downtown Edmonton by a fair bit. Downtown Winnipeg may be more spread out, but these two comparisons, while crude, are interesting to make as they are generally speaking much closer in size to each other than they are to Toronto or Vancouver which also have downtown grocers.

The Save On in downtown Edmonton is going strong. It's there for good.

It's built right at the corner of Jasper and 109 which is pretty well where the CBD ends and the inner city residential area of Oliver begins. It's a bit like Osborne Village except it's more tightly integrated with downtown given that there is only a street separating the two unlike here where there's a river plus a fairly big green space (legislature, riverbanks, etc.) that breaks up the continuity between downtown and Osborne Village. Like the Osborne Village Safeway, it's built on a suburban model with a big, free parking lot available out front.

The Sobeys store on Jasper was probably just a few years ahead of its time. Since that store closed a number of highrise condos and apartments have gone up around there. I'm not sure if a supermarket is in the works around there (if an Edmonton forumer happens to stumble upon this maybe they can fill us in), but there is definitely a critical mass of demand building.

For what it's worth the Jasper/109 Save On Foods is easily accessible from most condos in the western half of downtown Edmonton, so even if it isn't technically a downtown supermarket it still serves a large part of it.

[h0twired]

Originally Posted by esquire

The Save On in downtown Edmonton is going strong. It's there for good.

It's built right at the corner of Jasper and 109 which is pretty well where the CBD ends and the inner city residential area of Oliver begins. It's a bit like Osborne Village except it's more tightly integrated with downtown given that there is only a street separating the two unlike here where there's a river plus a fairly big green space (legislature, riverbanks, etc.) that breaks up the continuity between downtown and Osborne Village. Like the Osborne Village Safeway, it's built on a suburban model with a big, free parking lot available out front.

The Sobeys store on Jasper was probably just a few years ahead of its time. Since that store closed a number of highrise condos and apartments have gone up around there. I'm not sure if a supermarket is in the works around there (if an Edmonton forumer happens to stumble upon this maybe they can fill us in), but there is definitely a critical mass of demand building.

For what it's worth the Jasper/109 Save On Foods is easily accessible from most condos in the western half of downtown Edmonton, so even if it isn't technically a downtown supermarket it still serves a large part of it.

That location has a HUGE parking lot.



Not exactly analogous to a downtown grocery store at 300 Main.

[roccerfeller]

^^ Interesting. Thats fantastic information, thanks esquire!

^ lol thats a pretty big lot


If there was a downtown grocer in Edmonton, then I would question why not one in Winnipeg. That Save On location there, the geographical proximity makes a significant difference for sure.

If a more downtown-core grocer pops up there then I would say "why not Winnipeg" - but if the closest thing to it already failed then I would question how high the population needs to be to support that business model. Circa 2016, it looks like downtown Edmonton was between 12k-13k, and downtown Winnipeg between 16k-17k in terms of what each city was reporting as "downtown population"...both neighbourhoods were within their defined "downtown" areas

FWIW, those who were saying most people downtown just order their groceries online these days, anecdotally most people I know who live downtown do just that.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by h0twired

That location has a HUGE parking lot.

Not exactly analogous to a downtown grocery store at 300 Main.

That's my point though, it's a suburban model store and I doubt it would have been as successful without the big parking lot out front. It's telling that the uber-urban Sobeys faltered while Save On is going strong. With things being the way they are, I think that a supermarket at 300 Main would follow the trajectory of the Edmonton 104 St Sobeys in a hurry.

Incidentally, Winnipeg has a couple of similar suburban-style Safeways near downtown... Osborne Village and the one at Sargent and Sherbrook.

[dmacc]

^ The one on Marion is pretty close too, though not really walkable.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by roccerfeller

If a more downtown-core grocer pops up there then I would say "why not Winnipeg" - but if the closest thing to it already failed then I would question how high the population needs to be to support that business model. Circa 2016, it looks like downtown Edmonton was between 12k-13k, and downtown Winnipeg between 16k-17k in terms of what each city was reporting as "downtown population"...both neighbourhoods were within their defined "downtown" areas.

Like I said in my last post, our equivalent to the Jasper/109 Save On is the Osborne Village Safeway. To a lesser extent it would also include the Sargent Safeway and maybe even the No Frills stores on Marion and Notre Dame.

[roccerfeller]

Originally Posted by esquire

Like I said in my last post, our equivalent to the Jasper/109 Save On is the Osborne Village Safeway. To a lesser extent it would also include the Sargent Safeway and maybe even the No Frills stores on Marion and Notre Dame.

Yeah. I can appreciate why Artis had a tough time with drawing in a grocer as an anchor tenant. If you're courting someone like Sobeys, well they also own the Safeway brand so it would be dividing up their current standing businesses. No doubt those 3 safeway locations supply some downtown population on top of the adjacent populations as mentioned.

Also, the area Edmonton defines as downtown is smaller than what Winnipeg defines as downtown, and some of Winnipeg's downtown population would be closer to these other grocer locations than they would be to P&M, so the effective local core population being served by a central downtown grocer may be much smaller than ~17k

(...that just means we need a few more of these 300 main towers )

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by roccerfeller

FWIW, those who were saying most people downtown just order their groceries online these days, anecdotally most people I know who live downtown do just that.

The online grocery trend is not limited to residents of downtown Winnipeg but is an increasing global trend.

If you were selling groceries, which have fairly narrow margins, would you rather locate in some expensive downtown space or find the cheapest warehouse you can within a reasonable distance to downtown and run a fleet of delivery vans.

It is pretty simple, either someone heavily subsidizes the lease cost of a downtown grocery store or it is never happening and even with a heavy subsidize it is still very questionable.

[roccerfeller]

Originally Posted by CoryB

The online grocery trend is not limited to residents of downtown Winnipeg but is an increasing global trend.

If you were selling groceries, which have fairly narrow margins, would you rather locate in some expensive downtown space or find the cheapest warehouse you can within a reasonable distance to downtown and run a fleet of delivery vans.

It is pretty simple, either someone heavily subsidizes the lease cost of a downtown grocery store or it is never happening and even with a heavy subsidize it is still very questionable.

I'm sure that's one of the options Artis looked at, how the rent margins and retail margins could maybe be incorporated into a subsidy or something

It was said they gave it a strong look but after the numbers were crunched, it just didn't work out

[buzzg]

I've long said downtown doesn't need a suburban-size grocer, but a small footprint version would be good... my tune is starting to change even on that. Because of the growing availability for grocery delivery, you can get pretty much everything you need delivered at little-to-no cost. I already do that and I live in Norwood.

Where you may lose out is on higher-end or specialty items that either aren't offered at big grocers, or aren't available online due to stock – and you would go to an (independent) specialty store. I have some fears that if a Superstore or Sobeys were to open downtown, it would kill the potential business of some specialty or small shops opening, as well as convenience stores. While there aren't any 7-11s downtown, there's actually quite a few independent convenience stores that do a decent business, they're just often tucked away.

Apparently there's a specialty food store/grocer opening on McDermot soon (former Paperdoll) – if a major grocer opened, it could kill them. Get your big groceries by delivery and allow these small shops (the long-sought mystical deli) to open and thrive.

[BAKGUY]

Originally Posted by CoryB

The online grocery trend is not limited to residents of downtown Winnipeg but is an increasing global trend.

If you were selling groceries, which have fairly narrow margins, would you rather locate in some expensive downtown space or find the cheapest warehouse you can within a reasonable distance to downtown and run a fleet of delivery vans.

It is pretty simple, either someone heavily subsidizes the lease cost of a downtown grocery store or it is never happening and even with a heavy subsidize it is still very questionable.

All makes sense but for me, I am particular so only I wish to choose fresh produce, meats and shelf dated products especially carbon dated dairy etc... I still believe that someone would thrive...how did Eaton's and the Bay make it, that was their top earning department. Some that have to walk to Sargent Safeway and Notre Dame No Frills have been accosted and robbed.