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  #101  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2009, 7:31 PM
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Thinking about Lake Erie and the Hamilton plant, if one is kept it'll be the Lake Erie plant because it's newer, correct? And in this economic climate it would make sense to consolidate now rather than later -- instead of preserving a workforce in Hamilton for a small % of what that plant could produce and a small % of how many it used to employ - that's not efficient at all.
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  #102  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2009, 7:53 PM
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Plus the Lake Erie plant is next to duh Lake Erie and it's cheaper for shipping, no need for Welland Canal.
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  #103  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2009, 7:58 PM
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There are other businesses here that use welland canal, not just the steel mills.
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  #104  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2009, 8:21 PM
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I meant if US Steel consolidated Hamilton Works to the Lake Erie plant there would be no need for the Welland canal.
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  #105  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2009, 9:23 PM
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True Steeltown. Plus it would make their shipping charge a tad less since the route would be a tad shorter. And those Seaway charges aren't cheap.
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  #106  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2009, 12:39 AM
11thIndian 11thIndian is offline
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The NDP council rep for Stoney Creek was on Ontario today on Wednesday and I thought, "Here we go...". But he had surprisingly lucid comments considering. He opened with the word "devastating", but it was in the context that Stelco has been such a large part of the cities image for so long, and just about everyone who lives in Hamilton has a friend or relative who worked for Stelco/Defasco at some point in time. Then he surprised me by mentioning that Steel wasn't the lead employer in Hamilton anymore, that HHS employed more people. Next, he said that if steel is leaving hamilton, then we need to be planning for the future, to building wind turbines or solar panels. Overall, it was more "look foreword" than I expected from a city councilor.

There was a wonderful Nature of Things on about a month ago, where Suzuki goes to Europe with his daughter and looks at what's going on with alternative energy and green tech. It's STUPID how behind we are. And the big take away was that these countries aren't doing this just to be green, they're doing it because it made the most sense financially. In a country like Canada, where we have so much green space to execute on green power generation, it's astounding to me that we aren't coming up with a green self-sufficiency initiative. We have the scientific manpower to design leading edge green technologies for power, automotive, etc.. We have the skilled workforce that's being abandoned by the legacy automotive sector, and we have our entire country in which to implement (sell) what we produce. And if we do it well, then we can export to the rest of the world.

Hamilton as Steeltown has been slowly evaporating for over 20 years. Why try and save an economy that is going to require so much bending over backwards to maintain? I agree that if this closure is permanent it represents a huge opportunity for the city. I just hope we (and our elected officials) have the courage to pursue it.
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  #107  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2009, 4:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 11thIndian View Post
.

Hamilton as Steeltown has been slowly evaporating for over 20 years. Why try and save an economy that is going to require so much bending over backwards to maintain? I agree that if this closure is permanent it represents a huge opportunity for the city. I just hope we (and our elected officials) have the courage to pursue it.
Right on. That's not to say it won't require an absolutely mind-boggling amount of vision, cooperation, and comprehensive strategy... but it could pay off ten times over for just that land, and a hundredfold for the city.
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  #108  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2009, 6:56 AM
go_leafs_go02 go_leafs_go02 is offline
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Personally, while my condolences and regrets go to those who are laid-off, and I believe will never work another shift at Stelco, I couldn't help but grin when I finally could see that things finally have the opportunity to change.

Will the next 5-10-15 years be easy for Hamilton? Heck no, I think it's gonna get pretty bad, and sorry, downtown core was in a sorry state even during the economic boom and prosperity period earlier this decade. But, with property values declining, new land potentially becoming available on Burlington Bay, opportunities are gonna be coming.

Don't compare yourself to Pittsburgh. Other than what industry used to be there, they have really little in common. Hamilton, like it or not, is nowadays simply part of the GTA. We have the chance to be the next region to grow, expand, and redevelop. Toronto (the biggest and most powerful city and metropolis) is literally next door. With the greenbelt slowly running out of room, and prime land going to be popping up with GORGEOUS views of the Harbour, The Skyway Bridge, and the escarpment all around, that's one heck of a location if redevelopment is in the books.

Hamilton might be hurting, house prices might plummet, but hey, cheap housing might not be a bad thing, if we want to attract new people, even if they commute to work. If you can offset those commuters onto the GO Train, who knows what type of Transit service you might receive.

I'll be back in Hamilton in september, back at Mohawk for my 3rd year of my studies, am I looking forward to it? Not at all, but it could be an interesting time where the dynamics of the city finally can change.
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  #109  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2009, 1:55 PM
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I doubt house prices will drop as a result of Stelco closing down. Manufactoring jobs have been shedding for the last 10 years in Hamilton and yet house prices keep going up and up and up. House prices will likely only go down as a result of what's happening in the USA with the housing market.
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  #110  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2009, 5:09 PM
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I know several people in RE. Hamilton house prices are definitely holding steady. Unfortunately, because of the US housing crisis buyers are expecting bargains, so agents are having to do some educating.
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  #111  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2009, 7:19 PM
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With that many people loosing their jobs in Hamilton, won't it will have a ripple effect on the whole city? All those people are out of jobs, so what are they going to do, where are they going to go? Many may move away from Hamilton to find jobs in their field. I don't think there are any short term or long term benefits to the closure of the Stelco plant - it's just another domino falling in the wider recession.

Others have made this point on the long term effect. There will never be enough money for Hamilton to clean up those brown-lands if Stelco doesn't re-open. Who would pay to clean that up and then build something there like a condo when they could simply build their condo somewhere else that doesn't require millions of dollars of cleanup. And... who is going to be the first to build there when there is no guarantee that the whole thing will be cleaned up and revitalized.

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  #112  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2009, 9:45 PM
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Randall Reef is already slotted to be cleaned up with provincial funding valued at $900 million.
Queen's Quay in Toronto is an example of prime waterfront property built on a brownfield site.
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  #113  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2009, 2:26 AM
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Originally Posted by thisisdan View Post
With that many people loosing their jobs in Hamilton, won't it will have a ripple effect on the whole city? All those people are out of jobs, so what are they going to do, where are they going to go? Many may move away from Hamilton to find jobs in their field. I don't think there are any short term or long term benefits to the closure of the Stelco plant - it's just another domino falling in the wider recession.
I don't think so. Workers are no longer concentrated close to the factory, they are spread out even further than the city limits. That minimizes the impact on any specific housing area. There was a time when workers lived clustered close to the mills. My wife's grandfather walked to Stelco for his entire career, mid - 40's to 80's. Those times are long gone, and I'd be willing to hazard a guess there no one who currently walks to Stelco (or at least, I could count them on my fingers).

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Originally Posted by thisisdan View Post
Others have made this point on the long term effect. There will never be enough money for Hamilton to clean up those brown-lands if Stelco doesn't re-open. Who would pay to clean that up and then build something there like a condo when they could simply build their condo somewhere else that doesn't require millions of dollars of cleanup. And... who is going to be the first to build there when there is no guarantee that the whole thing will be cleaned up and revitalized.
It won't be the cities money unless tied to a specific smallish redevelopment which will pay it back through property taxes. It will be provincial, or federal money, or a combination of both.
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  #114  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2009, 12:59 PM
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Randle Reef is already slotted to be cleaned up with provincial funding valued at $900 million.
That figure represents the estimated economic spin-off of economic benefits to the GHA once the Hamilton Harbour is de-listed as an Area of Concern. The cost of containment (in an extension to Pier 15 and a peninsula adjacent to Pier 16) is estimated at $90 million, of which the feds, province and city will each pay a third.

From the provincial announcement in the run-up to the 2007 election:

Quote:
The preferred remediation option is to build a containment facility around the sediment, to prevent toxic substances from spreading into the harbour. This option was selected after a lengthy process, which began in 1995. Several options were considered in consultation with an advisory group made up of 17 local stakeholder organizations. Building a containment facility, at an estimated cost of $90 million, is considered to be the most cost-effective way to contain the contaminated sediment... The project is currently undergoing the federal Environmental Assessment process and, if it is approved, construction could start in 2008. The province will provide funding over the eight years of the project.
From the scoping document:

Quote:
It is expected that the project may be initiated in 2009, provided that: the detailed engineering study substantiates the conceptual design and demonstrates that the project satisfies federal environmental assessment requirements; full funding is in place; implementation agreements between Environment Canada and project funding partners are completed; and the tendering process is completed. The construction and dredging required for project completion is expected to take approximately 5-10 years.
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Last edited by thistleclub; Mar 7, 2009 at 1:12 PM.
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  #115  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2009, 1:40 PM
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Hey I have a few things to say about this again. First off its 2000 people out of 500,000 in the city. you do the math over all thats not a massive amount of people its a lot yes but percentage wise not really. Look at windsor far less people 1700 layoffs I personally think thats a little more serious.

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I can't give you much credit for you statement due to the fact you a leafs fan. sorry Although we have more in common with Pittsburgh then you might thinks. Yes there was steel also the fact that they have some beautiful landscape in there city. Also like Hamilton they have a very significant Health sector 26,000 people work in Health care in Pittsburgh. They also have a thriving university that has massive inplications in the city. Any of that sound firmilyar? I would must rather like to be know as the Heath care city then and armpit of the province.

in all seriousness though why reclaim that land why not reclaim the harbour in the sense that most of that land was made per say why not just remove it and allow the harbour to be expanded. Maybe not all of it but some of it. I don't know how differant this would be as far a cost but just a though.

As much as I like the thoughts become a non steel town I don't think anyone on our city council or likely future ones would have the vision to see anything significant happen. You can already see it through the Mayors statements in the papers. I don't know but I don't think its going to happen which frustrates me.

How you never know though.
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  #116  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2009, 2:45 PM
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The closure of Hamilton and Lake Erie Works are both temporary. I expect they will both be back in oreation by Spring 2010, provided the company's efforts to bust up the union are as sucessfull as they expect.
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  #117  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2009, 6:15 PM
thistleclub thistleclub is offline
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Originally Posted by urban_planner View Post
Hey I have a few things to say about this again. First off its 2000 people out of 500,000 in the city. you do the math over all thats not a massive amount of people its a lot yes but percentage wise not really.
Seems harsh on the face of it, but (with due respect to those whose lives and livelihoods are impacted by this idling) I'm inclined to agree. This isn't a good news story by any means but the early-80s recession saw three or four times as many steelworkers laid off, at a time when the local economy wasn't that diversified.
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  #118  
Old Posted Mar 8, 2009, 9:01 PM
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On the bright side, here's to cleaner air and water for all 500,000+ Hamilton residents.
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  #119  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2009, 4:02 PM
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Thought this comment was worth copying and pasting back from the Spec blog - just because it's someone else thinking of what could be:

"Take a drive down Burlington Street from James all the way to the QEW. Tour both the elevated and at-grade portions from Ottawa Street eastward. Observe the width of the road from Lakeport Brewery east towards Sherman.


If you were a stranger to this town, you would wonder why such a massive transportation facility exists with such little traffic. Of course a little history would reveal that the industries that call this street home once thrived and employed people in the tens of thousands. The size of the road was neccesary to accomadate the shift-workers producing the goods as well as the transports that moved them.


Of course the glory-days of manufacturing in this town are over. Burlington street, in its current configuration and size is no longer needed. Or is it?


Take a drive down Burlington Street and imagine it transformed. It is now 100% at-grade, no elevated portions. There are no more transport trucks, instead there are cars towing trailers with jet-skis. There are families with bikes and other beach furniture heading to former Stelco Bay-front. A LRT line brings even more sun-seekers. Hotels and resorts accomadate visitors from around the country.


It sounds far fetched, but with the a clear plan, this vision, or something similar could happen.


Large amounts of money have already gone into cleaning up the harbour.



Ships exist that are able to create a beach anywhere one is desired. Look at an aireal photo of Hamilton and the dominant feature is the large man-made ssquare jutting out into the harbour that is currntly the Stelco Bay-front.


If Stelco ever did close down and the factories were allowed to sit for decades, it would make the Lister Block look like a pot-hole in the scale of problems we face.


Burlington Steet can once again be the street that carries the life-blood of this City. It can be transformed into a grand boulevard that is the entrance to Hamiltons new tourist destination. There is plenty of opportunity and space for film-studios, condos, parks and open space and hotels with enough left over to accomadate what ever industry remains in the north end.


The issues facing Stelco as well as the world will likely see a transformation for our City. We can sieze it as an opportunity and proper from it, but we must plan for it."
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  #120  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2009, 5:20 PM
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There's something missing from this beach resort town vision. Where will the money come from, and how will it take the place of former industries in Hamilton's economy?
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