VIA Rail

[J81]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Interesting. VIA's Summary of the 2019-2023 Corporate Plan only says, "F40 fleet will have components modified to permit them to serve in push-pull operations." so I assumed it was still to be done.



True, though optimally they would want to have it replace the Renaissance baggage transition car and thus the cabbage cars would need to be modified to have a European coupler to couple with the Renaissance cars. It still doesn't solve the issue of all the seats facing backwards.

My guess is they will have the train end at Moncton and start up the planned "Eastern Intercity" service between Halifax and Moncton (and on to Campbellton) using newly refurbished RDCs.

From above Corporate Plan:

A lot of the F40s got done last year ( 2019 ). I know in April 2018 there were only 6 that had the traction motors replaced to be able to run push/pull.

The Cabbage cars i mentioned would work well on the intercity service in the martimes. Have an F40 at one end and the Cabbage at the other end of an all HEP consist. The Ren sets are few and far between and if they do decide to still run the ocean as far as Moncton they would be spoken for.

In 3 years when all the new equipment is on the property everything will look different. The HEP cars in the corridor now will no doubt end up on the transcons so we can finally be rid of the Renacraps. I look forward to that.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You make some great insights into the issue.
But, there is a difference between end of life and real end of life.
You can cut out old metal and replace with new.
You can cut out stressed metal and replace with new.
You could retrofit NA stuff to remove the EU stuff.

These stripped down cars could then be filled with bunks.

However, knowing that they will not be in serviceable condition by 2025, scrapping them seems like the only answer.

VIA is the king of refurbishing old equipment and if they could, they would. Their LRC cars have been refurbished several times and if you look at their Summary of the 2019-2023 Corporate Plan it describes the work that is planned to their Heritage Fleet:

3.3 Heritage Fleet Modernization

VIA Rail’s second major equipment project is the refurbishment of its heritage fleet. Known under the umbrella “Heritage Fleet Modernization”, this program aims to modernize the aging fleet of HEP cars and protect the Corridor seat capacity until the new fleet train sets are in service. Seat capacity issues will be far less disruptive than planned under the previous status quo as deliveries of the new fleet will for the most part be timely.

The interiors of 17 HEP cars will be refurbished and reconfigured to meet the seating and accessibility requirements that were previously satisfied by the LRC cars; these cars will be known as HEPIII. The contract for this work is underway and was awarded to Bombardier Transportation on April 3, 2018.

An additional 25 HEP cars will see their interiors renewed in kind, without reconfiguration, and their systems will also be completely re-engineered in order to serve as a secondary capacity protection in the case of unplanned events. Awarding of the contract took place on April 10, 2018, Cad Railway Industries was the selected supplier. The lifecycle of all 42 cars (25 + 17) will extend well beyond the Corridor Protection Plan and the vehicles will continue to provide value for Long-Haul services once the plan reaches its end.

VIA Rail is also in the process of, or planning to, modernize the interiors, critical systems and kitchens of its diner, Chateau, and Skyline cars. Initiating this process is the contract awarded to Rail GD who will refurbish and transform four of the dining cars.

The Montréal Maintenance Center (MMC) is upgrading 33 business and economy HEP II cars. These include systems modernization and / or overhaul, as well as interior redesign and / or improvement.

P42 locomotives will receive reliability enhancements that will reduce maintenance costs, increase the equipment’s availability and improve the work environment for on board crews. As well, the F40 fleet will have components modified to permit them to serve in push-pull operations. Both projects will take place at the MMC.

The stainless steel construction off the HEP cars means they could be refurbished and reused almost indefinitely. The aluminum bodies and frames of the LRC cars also gives them a very long lifespan (though it was noted previously that they have deteriorated enough that they won't be able to be refurbished again).

The soft carbon steel used in the Renaissance cars accelerates their deterioration. Refurbishing them would be very expensive and you would end up with a poor quality product.

Could it be done? Probably. Should it be done? No. It really is becoming a case of the age old question: If you replace every single part in a truck, is it still the same truck?

The Renaissance cars bought under a government that was very penny wise and pound foolish. With all the money that has been put into them so far, we likely could have had brand new ones that were built to meet VIAs requirements. The best use for them when they are retired is as scrap metal.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J81

A lot of the F40s got done last year ( 2019 ). I know in April 2018 there were only 6 that had the traction motors replaced to be able to run push/pull.

Nice to know. I didn't find any references stating that. Then again the 2020 Corporate plan hasn't been released yet.

The Cabbage cars i mentioned would work well on the intercity service in the martimes. Have an F40 at one end and the Cabbage at the other end of an all HEP consist. The Ren sets are few and far between and if they do decide to still run the ocean as far as Moncton they would be spoken for.

Huh? You are contradicting yourself. You are saying it will be hard to find Renascence cars for the Ocean because they are used on the Ocean.

In 3 years when all the new equipment is on the property everything will look different. The HEP cars in the corridor now will no doubt end up on the transcons so we can finally be rid of the Renacraps. I look forward to that.

I agree things will look very different once VIA gets their new fleet. The problem is the HEP II cars used on corridor service are coaches and the Ocean needs sleepers. Retiring the "Renacraps" will result in a shortage of sleeper cars. Are you suggesting the HEP II cars will be reconfigured as sleepers? That might be possible, but it wouldn't be trivial.

[Nouvellecosse]

I'm skeptical about the "improved service in the Maritimes" plan. If the intention is just restoring it back to daily, then that isn't going to accomplish much considering the competing bus service runs multiple times/days and is faster. If they can improve the train speeds to at least match the bus then they might get some interest from people who prefer the overall experience (if the price is competitive), but ultimately once a day is not enough. That might be ok for people going long distances like into QC or Ont, but not a few hundred km. It's the same principle as with other types of transit service. You need more frequent service to go shorter distances in town than to go to the suburbs and more frequency for the suburbs than to neighbouring satellite cities, etc.

The Maritime service should be no less than morning, afternoon, and evening imo.

[ghYHZ]

What is so inherently wrong with the Renaissance cars that is causing them to corrode/deteriorate prematurely? Isn't the design/construction based on the British Rail Mark 4 equipment...and similar construction to the Mark 2 and Mark 3 that came before? Some of those are still in service including the Mark 3's in the fixed consists of the Intercity 125s. The wet Maritime climate here can't be much different to the UK.

Mark 3 Sleeping Cars were constructed in the early '80s. Most of those have just recently been replaced by the new 'Caledonian Sleepers' but several are still in use on the 'Night Riviera' to Penzance in SW England.

Anyway.....I'll ride the Rens as long as I still can and adjust my schedule accordingly to be in an Ocean Renaissance Sleeper. Last fall I was in a Chateau 'Cabin for 2' going to Montreal and the rattles and vibrations were certainly a contrast IMHO to the solid, smooth, quiet ride I experienced in the Ren Cabin I had returning to Halifax.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

What is so inherently wrong with the Renaissance cars that is causing them to corrode/deteriorate prematurely? Isn't the design/construction based on the British Rail Mark 4 equipment...and similar construction to the Mark 2 and Mark 3 that came before? Some of those are still in service including the Mark 3's in the fixed consists of the Intercity 125s. The wet Maritime climate here can't be much different to the UK.

Mark 3 Sleeping Cars were constructed in the early '80s. Most of those have just recently been replaced by the new 'Caledonian Sleepers' but several are still in use on the 'Night Riviera' to Penzance in SW England.

Anyway.....I'll ride the Rens as long as I still can and adjust my schedule accordingly to be in an Ocean Renaissance Sleeper. Last fall I was in a Chateau 'Cabin for 2' going to Montreal and the rattles and vibrations were certainly a contrast IMHO to the solid, smooth, quiet ride I experienced in the Ren Cabin I had returning to Halifax.

Potentially, they actually maintained the British ones properly? They are completely fine to ride in the UK and I never heard of severe problems.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

What is so inherently wrong with the Renaissance cars that is causing them to corrode/deteriorate prematurely? Isn't the design/construction based on the British Rail Mark 4 equipment...and similar construction to the Mark 2 and Mark 3 that came before? Some of those are still in service including the Mark 3's in the fixed consists of the Intercity 125s. The wet Maritime climate here can't be much different to the UK.

Mark 3 Sleeping Cars were constructed in the early '80s. Most of those have just recently been replaced by the new 'Caledonian Sleepers' but several are still in use on the 'Night Riviera' to Penzance in SW England.

Anyway.....I'll ride the Rens as long as I still can and adjust my schedule accordingly to be in an Ocean Renaissance Sleeper. Last fall I was in a Chateau 'Cabin for 2' going to Montreal and the rattles and vibrations were certainly a contrast IMHO to the solid, smooth, quiet ride I experienced in the Ren Cabin I had returning to Halifax.

In one word: WINTER.

As stated before, they are made of a soft carbon steel that corrodes easily. This might be fine in the UK and continental Europe, for which they were designed, where winters are mild and most crossings are grade separated. Here in Canada, we have long harsh winters and use a lot more salt on our roads. Since there are many level crossings, that salt gets splashed up onto the car, accelerating the oxidation.

The LRC cars use aluminum bodies. One nice thing about aluminum is its oxide layer provides a barrier that prevents further oxidation.

The HEP cars are made of stainless steel and thus don't rust very easily.

[J81]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Nice to know. I didn't find any references stating that. Then again the 2020 Corporate plan hasn't been released yet.



Huh? You are contradicting yourself. You are saying it will be hard to find Renascence cars for the Ocean because they are used on the Ocean.

No i think you just misunderstood what i wrote. The Cabbage cars i said would work well on intercity service in the maritimes with the HEP equipment. The ren equipment will stay on the ocean if it continues to run.

[/QUOTE]I agree things will look very different once VIA gets their new fleet. The problem is the HEP II cars used on corridor service are coaches and the Ocean needs sleepers. Retiring the "Renacraps" will result in a shortage of sleeper cars. Are you suggesting the HEP II cars will be reconfigured as sleepers? That might be possible, but it wouldn't be trivial.[/QUOTE]

There are enough budd sleepers around for the Ocean once they are finished being refurbished.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The interiors of 17 HEP cars will be refurbished and reconfigured to meet the seating and accessibility requirements that were previously satisfied by the LRC cars; these cars will be known as HEPIII.

I wonder if anyone said that name out loud before choosing it lol.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

VIA is the king of refurbishing old equipment and if they could, they would.



Could it be done? Probably. Should it be done? No. It really is becoming a case of the age old question: If you replace every single part in a truck, is it still the same truck?

I am ex navy. It took a fire and a collision to retire 2 of my ships. Here in Canada, no public transport agency, whether it be local or national, have a procurement program in place that sees constant replacement, or renewal. This is partly because the politicians seem to need the photo op of the new bus/train/plane/ship for their election.

So, I do agree that they should be scrapped, but part of me sees this as an opportunity to refurbish them and make them into something like a sleeper.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

In one word: WINTER.

As stated before, they are made of a soft carbon steel that corrodes easily. This might be fine in the UK and continental Europe, for which they were designed, where winters are mild and most crossings are grade separated. Here in Canada, we have long harsh winters and use a lot more salt on our roads. Since there are many level crossings, that salt gets splashed up onto the car, accelerating the oxidation.

The LRC cars use aluminum bodies. One nice thing about aluminum is its oxide layer provides a barrier that prevents further oxidation.

The HEP cars are made of stainless steel and thus don't rust very easily.

It is funny, it was the undoing of the TEE for the Northlander too.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J81

No i think you just misunderstood what i wrote. The Cabbage cars i said would work well on intercity service in the maritimes with the HEP equipment. The ren equipment will stay on the ocean if it continues to run.

Back in post #514 it says VIA is planning on using Rail Diesel Cars (RDCs) for the Eastern Intercity service (which apparently VIA refurbished for this purpose). This is also mentioned in both the 2018-2022 and 2019-2023 Corporate Plans. Since RDCs have cabs at both ends, there would be no need for a cab car. They would only be needed for the Ocean.

There are enough budd sleepers around for the Ocean once they are finished being refurbished.

I'm not so sure. They have 40 Manor Cars and 29 Chateau cars for a total of 69 (not including Park cars). If they have 4 consists, for the Canadian, each needing up to 15 sleepers per train in peak season (not sure the maximum they use, but I know they can be long), that's 60. The train to Churchil will need a few, so that isn't leaving all that many spares.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

part of me sees this as an opportunity to refurbish them and make them into something like a sleeper.

Just melt them down and use the metal to build a sleeper. While we are at it, we could then add some chromium to change it into stainless steel.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Just melt them down and use the metal to build a sleeper. While we are at it, we could then add some chromium to change it into stainless steel.

That is not how metallurgy works.

[J81]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Back in post #514 it says VIA is planning on using Rail Diesel Cars (RDCs) for the Eastern Intercity service (which apparently VIA refurbished for this purpose). This is also mentioned in both the 2018-2022 and 2019-2023 Corporate Plans. Since RDCs have cabs at both ends, there would be no need for a cab car. They would only be needed for the Ocean.



I'm not so sure. They have 40 Manor Cars and 29 Chateau cars for a total of 69 (not including Park cars). If they have 4 consists, for the Canadian, each needing up to 15 sleepers per train in peak season (not sure the maximum they use, but I know they can be long), that's 60. The train to Churchil will need a few, so that isn't leaving all that many spares.

Theyre not going to use the RDCs in the maritimes. If they were theyd have done it by now. Theres a set of 3 sitting in Montreal right now doing nothing and have been for some time. Aside from the RDC set they use on the Sudbury-White River run, these are the only ones they have left that are serviceable. They had the opportunity to refurbish a dozen or so that were stored in Moncton but decided not to and they ended up getting scrapped. VIA’s plan to use the RDCs in the maritimes revolved around them acquiring a number of used but serviceable RDCs from a Texas company but they were outbid by another from New England I believe.

As far as sleeper cars the Churchill train needs only one. The Transcon usually has 10-12 Manors and the Ocean usually had 5-8 Chateaus. It leaves a few left over but it’s definitely tight. I could see some of the corridor HEP1 cars turned into sleepers down the road when the new sets arrive.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by J81

Theyre not going to use the RDCs in the maritimes. If they were theyd have done it by now. Theres a set of 3 sitting in Montreal right now doing nothing and have been for some time. Aside from the RDC set they use on the Sudbury-White River run, these are the only ones they have left that are serviceable. They had the opportunity to refurbish a dozen or so that were stored in Moncton but decided not to and they ended up getting scrapped. VIA’s plan to use the RDCs in the maritimes revolved around them acquiring a number of used but serviceable RDCs from a Texas company but they were outbid by another from New England I believe.

As far as sleeper cars the Churchill train needs only one. The Transcon usually has 10-12 Manors and the Ocean usually had 5-8 Chateaus. It leaves a few left over but it’s definitely tight. I could see some of the corridor HEP1 cars turned into sleepers down the road when the new sets arrive.

The RDCs might be for the possible restoration of the E&N line.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J81

Theyre not going to use the RDCs in the maritimes. If they were theyd have done it by now. Theres a set of 3 sitting in Montreal right now doing nothing and have been for some time. Aside from the RDC set they use on the Sudbury-White River run, these are the only ones they have left that are serviceable. They had the opportunity to refurbish a dozen or so that were stored in Moncton but decided not to and they ended up getting scrapped. VIA’s plan to use the RDCs in the maritimes revolved around them acquiring a number of used but serviceable RDCs from a Texas company but they were outbid by another from New England I believe.

They haven't done it yet, because they are waiting for infrastructure upgrades:

In early February 2018, CN responded that the RDCs will be allowed to operate at passenger speed on the Springhill and Bedford subdivisions. Further details regarding the infrastructure upgrades are pending.

from VIA's Summary of the 2019-2023 Corporate Plan

VIA lost that bid in 2017ref, so why would they still be perusing RDCs for the route in their 2019 plan?

If you look at VIA's fleet, they have 3 RDC-1s, 2 RDC-2s and 1 RDC-4 (baggage only). They don't need all of those for the Sudbury-White River run, and as you said, they have 3 in Montreal doing nothing.

[J81]

Originally Posted by roger1818

They haven't done it yet, because they are waiting for infrastructure upgrades:

from VIA's Summary of the 2019-2023 Corporate Plan

VIA lost that bid in 2017ref, so why would they still be perusing RDCs for the route in their 2019 plan?

If you look at VIA's fleet, they have 3 RDC-1s, 2 RDC-2s and 1 RDC-4 (baggage only). They don't need all of those for the Sudbury-White River run, and as you said, they have 3 in Montreal doing nothing.

What infrastructure upgrades? What upgrades need to happen for them to run a 3 car RDC train on tracks they currently run up to 20 car trains on currently? Obviously im very skeptical of their plan. They write these corporate plans to get the public talking. Two days after its published the plan changes drastically. Would i like to see increased service in the maritimes? You bet. But i wont hold my breath. Oh and if the intercity service does happen the Ocean goes to two days a week which they will be able to service with a single Budd consist.

[lrt's friend]

Is the current standoff that has shut down VIA service a sign of a lengthy dispute that could last weeks or months as has been the case with some other notable indigenous disputes in the past?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J81

What infrastructure upgrades? What upgrades need to happen for them to run a 3 car RDC train on tracks they currently run up to 20 car trains on currently?

They don't say so I can only guess. If I did have to wager a guess, it would be upgrades to the Newcastle sub. I seem to remember that earlier in this thread someone said that it is severely speed limited. It could be not so much that they can't use RDCs but that it isn't feasible to run a intercity service (regardless of the equipment type) with the current speed limits.

Obviously im very skeptical of their plan. They write these corporate plans to get the public talking. Two days after its published the plan changes drastically. Would i like to see increased service in the maritimes? You bet. But i wont hold my breath. Oh and if the intercity service does happen the Ocean goes to two days a week which they will be able to service with a single Budd consist.

It is very similar to what was said in the 2018 plan, so that doesn't jive with what you are saying.