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  #81  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2019, 9:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I've mentioned before that when I was a kid I lived for a time just outside Ottawa in Eastern Ontario.

To my friends and I (we were not generally Quebecers BTW) a place like Quebec City felt bigger than Ottawa because it had an NHL team, had TV shows set there like Lance et compte (He Shoots He Scores), had a bigger winter carnival that was much more fun - read booze available all over the place - and more international visitors, had more and bigger highways and bigger malls with midway rides inside them, a waterpark, cool winter activities other than skiing and skating like inner tube hills with loud pop music and discotheque style lighting, cuter more stylish girls who weren't as "square", better bars and nightlife and generally had more panache and style. They even had FM radio stations playing pop music which believe it or not Ottawa did not yet have!

At the time, the metro population difference between Quebec City and Ottawa(-Hull) was probably in the 200,000 range. Today it's almost in the 500,000 range, and Quebec City though still great has in most ways been left in the dust by Ottawa when it comes to how big either one feels relative to the other.
I had a similarly disorienting experience in Dublin recently. The past times I've been, my overall impression has been boozy and trashy. The nightlife was comparable to George Street - the same types of people, just Dublin then has fewer bodies on the street, although spread over a much larger area. But I always left Dublin feeling pretty damn good about St. John's. And Dublin was always miles ahead of the mainland Canadian cities in my mind, so it's not like it was an also-ran.

This most recent visit... I saw only one woman in fishnets. I was in a crush of people like London everywhere I went. The style was posh, completely different. And everything was elevated. It feels like a large city now, it never did before. It was kind of like Tokyo where you know it's big, but outside of a couple of tourist hotspots it feels like a manageable smaller city. This literally was untrue 5-10 years ago, but as of now, St. John's is irredeemably provincial compared to even the fringes of Dublin's core. So I get the melancholy/disorientation you probably feel regarding Quebec City versus Ottawa. lol

*****

As for radio, that's another good way to tell. When you flip through the scan button and it stops at every second frequency... here you might hit three stations scrolling through the whole range. And they're almost all Newfoundland/Irish folk, pop, Classic (which, here at least, is now 90s-2010s), and one horrific country station. Every now and then you'll latch onto one of the French stations rebroadcast in St. Pierre.

But even what's on the radio. About 30% of the radio market in Newfoundland is talk radio, left-wing call-in shows like Open Line, Nightline, Cross Talk, etc. The nearest province to us in that genre is Quebec at like 9%, or 19%, I forget which, but either way, it's way lower. So that's... something.

When I went to visit my parents at Christmas when they were both teaching in northern Manitoba, the local Indigenous people were shocked and touched. They talked about us on the radio for 30 minutes, they could not believe white people not only stayed in their community for a holiday, but even brought family to spend it there.

But that same radio station would not only announce birthday parties, it would read out the 30-40 names of everyone invited Can you imagine? So that's the radio-related thing that most screams middle-of-nowhere to me.
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  #82  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2019, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
Wanted to add some real numbers to the Seattle Vancouver debate, which show population density for the core area. Imo, population density is a huge factor in what makes a city feel big. For example, New York City feels like the biggest city in NA, and it's also the most densely populated. Toronto feels like the biggest city in Canada. Once again, most densely populated (using equal geographic areas).

A while back, somebody actually counted up census tracts in a handful of cities to calculate the density in the core areas of approx 5 square miles. Seattle - 80 000 people living in 4.4 square miles = 18 000/sq mile. Vancouver - 163 000 people living in 5.3 square miles = 31 000/sq mile.

It's not even close. In fact, Vancouver carries a much higher density over a larger area.
During the day, downtown Montréal has a population of about 500,000 at any given times. There are about 350,000 jobs in downtown Montréal, + 4 Universities and many Colleges.
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  #83  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2019, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by giallo View Post
I'd have to agree. I don't think Paris is the best example. Even the oldest parts of the city have highrises dotted all around. Once you get outside of the old city, you see even more modern highrises and skyscrapers.

I was in Paris last year, and was pretty surprised by how many highrises you'd see all around the metro area.

notre dame by Andrew Rochfort, on Flickr



which way by Andrew Rochfort, on Flickr



lil light by Andrew Rochfort, on Flickr



straight ahead by Andrew Rochfort, on Flickr
Don't get me wrong, I certainly wasn't saying that Paris had no tall buildings. My point was that to me it feels as big as Asian megacities despite not being as tall as them due to the extent of the crowds and its massive rail system.
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  #84  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2019, 11:13 PM
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Ottawa does kinda feel a bit smaller than it's population indicates. Gatineau kind of distorts the overall size because it's across a river in a separate province. Then you have things like height restrictions which limits the skyline and the greenbelt which leaves large gaps of undeveloped areas.

I mean when you look at the CMA of Ottawa-Gatineau it's right on the heels of Edmonton and Calgary....but it doesn't feel that way...
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  #85  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2019, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by goodgrowth View Post
Ottawa does kinda feel a bit smaller than it's population indicates.
Ottawa feels bigger than it's population indicates to me, at least.

It has decent museums, a good food scene, attracts above its population number in events/concerts and gets attention in the national media. It has areas with enough bustle (along the Rideau Canal, Elgin St, the Byward Market) to give the vibe of a much larger place.

This all of course is due to its status as the national capital.

If London, ON was a million plus, it likely would still relatively obscured by Toronto.

If Ottawa hadn't been the capital but somehow had the same number of people, it would be overshadowed by Montreal and Toronto and probably have nowhere near the stuff it does today.
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  #86  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2019, 2:36 AM
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Originally Posted by goodgrowth View Post
Ottawa does kinda feel a bit smaller than it's population indicates. Gatineau kind of distorts the overall size because it's across a river in a separate province. Then you have things like height restrictions which limits the skyline and the greenbelt which leaves large gaps of undeveloped areas.

I mean when you look at the CMA of Ottawa-Gatineau it's right on the heels of Edmonton and Calgary....but it doesn't feel that way...
That what I always thought too, but part of that was coming from Toronto to Ottawa for visits, it always seemed so small. Even today it it still has a small city feel to it. One the cities slogan's used to be 'The world's biggest town' or something like that. It doesn't feel like you're in a large city.
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  #87  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2019, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by wave46 View Post
Ottawa feels bigger than it's population indicates to me, at least.

It has decent museums, a good food scene, attracts above its population number in events/concerts and gets attention in the national media. It has areas with enough bustle (along the Rideau Canal, Elgin St, the Byward Market) to give the vibe of a much larger place.

This all of course is due to its status as the national capital.

If London, ON was a million plus, it likely would still relatively obscured by Toronto.

If Ottawa hadn't been the capital but somehow had the same number of people, it would be overshadowed by Montreal and Toronto and probably have nowhere near the stuff it does today.
I'd agree with this in general. At a minimum Ottawa feels about how it should feel given its population size.

And I don't think that on the ground Ottawa really feels smaller than Edmonton or Calgary, except perhaps from a distance due to the latter two having more impressive, higher skylines. But even walking around the CBDs where all those buildings are, Ottawa doesn't really feel smaller than the two Alberta cities.

When it comes to the comparison I made between Ottawa and Quebec City, it's really Quebec City that punches above its weight and feels bigger than it is, rather than Ottawa feeling small.
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  #88  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2019, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post

When I went to visit my parents at Christmas when they were both teaching in northern Manitoba, the local Indigenous people were shocked and touched. They talked about us on the radio for 30 minutes, they could not believe white people not only stayed in their community for a holiday, but even brought family to spend it there.

But that same radio station would not only announce birthday parties, it would read out the 30-40 names of everyone invited Can you imagine? So that's the radio-related thing that most screams middle-of-nowhere to me.
I am pretty sure the evening news on CTV Ottawa (the highest rated news show by far) still does a "happiness file" of birthdays and anniversaries.

It's done by the weather guy after his forecast. He has a comforting, Santa Claus type voice and goes through a long list of names, as in:

"and a happy 90th birthday to Rosemary Turcotte in Glen Sandfield..."

"and it's a golden anniversary for Frank and Verna MacKechnie in Killaloe..."
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  #89  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2019, 2:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I'd agree with this in general. At a minimum Ottawa feels about how it should feel given its population size.

And I don't think that on the ground Ottawa really feels smaller than Edmonton or Calgary, except perhaps from a distance due to the latter two having more impressive, higher skylines. But even walking around the CBDs where all those buildings are, Ottawa doesn't really feel smaller than the two Alberta cities.

When it comes to the comparison I made between Ottawa and Quebec City, it's really Quebec City that punches above its weight and feels bigger than it is, rather than Ottawa feeling small.
I'm surprised that you say that. Quebec City's core areas always make the place feel smaller to me rather than larger. I think it's the scale of the buildings.
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  #90  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2019, 2:11 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
I'm surprised that you say that. Quebec City's core areas always make the place feel smaller to me rather than larger. I think it's the scale of the buildings.
I don't think it generally feels bigger than Ottawa does (in 2019), but it's got an impressive amount of panache and swagger for a metro area of 800,000 people on the North American continent. (Though not on a Geneva level of punching above its weight, I agree.)
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  #91  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2019, 3:01 PM
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Quebec has super impressive public landmarks and vistas, but I remember being somewhat taken aback by the lack of what I'd regard as a standard North American CBD... the prairie cities all have this to varying degrees, the big office towers, the department stores, busy streets, the big institutions and all that. Quebec doesn't really have a conventional downtown in the same way. Although mind you, having Old Quebec is a more than fair tradeoff for that.
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  #92  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2019, 3:04 PM
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A city can also feel more cosmopolitan and vibrant while simultaneously feeling smaller than many others. Quebec City probably fits into this category.
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  #93  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2019, 3:09 PM
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Quebec has super impressive public landmarks and vistas, but I remember being somewhat taken aback by the lack of what I'd regard as a standard North American CBD... the prairie cities all have this to varying degrees, the big office towers, the department stores, busy streets, the big institutions and all that. Quebec doesn't really have a conventional downtown in the same way. Although mind you, having Old Quebec is a more than fair tradeoff for that.
It's almost European in that sense, aside from a few grotesque tower blocks. Which makes it neat to go to - you can almost forget you're in North America.

However, you're seeing a cross-pollination of the CBD ideals across the Atlantic - London has a fair number of huge skyscrapers in the North American vein, while the more progressive North American cities are trying to fill-in their CBDs with mixed use stuff in the European sense.

Obviously, there's outliers on both sides of the equation.
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  #94  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2019, 3:58 PM
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However, you're seeing a cross-pollination of the CBD ideals across the Atlantic - London has a fair number of huge skyscrapers in the North American vein, .
Yeah, I've noticed that about London as well. Haven't been there in a number of years but you really notice it even when watching contemporary movies or TV shows shot there how the skyline has beefed up - in a quasi-North American way I'd agree.

If you watch, say, a James Bond movie from the 1990s or even the first years of the 2000s, it's definitely not as striking.
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  #95  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2019, 4:13 PM
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Yeah, I've noticed that about London as well. Haven't been there in a number of years but you really notice it even when watching contemporary movies or TV shows shot there how the skyline has beefed up - in a quasi-North American way I'd agree.

If you watch, say, a James Bond movie from the 1990s or even the first years of the 2000s, it's definitely not as striking.
Seems that a lot of European capitals have gone in that direction... Moscow has really taken it to a new level, but yeah, London, Frankfurt, Warsaw, Paris... they all have newer towers that have changed the skyline as compared to the 90s.

No question that Quebec is more in line with the traditional European model, certainly far more than the typical North American city.
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  #96  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2019, 4:19 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Quebec has super impressive public landmarks and vistas, but I remember being somewhat taken aback by the lack of what I'd regard as a standard North American CBD... the prairie cities all have this to varying degrees, the big office towers, the department stores, busy streets, the big institutions and all that. Quebec doesn't really have a conventional downtown in the same way. Although mind you, having Old Quebec is a more than fair tradeoff for that.

Saint-Roch feels like a genuine commercial downtown core, and does more and more with new developments. I love St-Joseph in Saint-Roch, one of my favorite commercial streets in the country.

Also one of the most beautiful...


(my pic)
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  #97  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2019, 4:24 PM
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^ Good point, and beautiful photo. I have to admit my perception is coloured somewhat by the fact that my visits to Quebec took place in the mid/late 90s which was not really a great time for many Canadian cities except Vancouver... the Saint-Roch area had a bit of a desolate air at the time although judging by SSP photos it has changed significantly since then.
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  #98  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2019, 4:24 PM
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Are you 90 years old? Ottawa has had FM radio stations playing pop music since the late 70's.
It most certainly did not.

I was living just outside of Ottawa in Eastern Ontario in the mid to late 80s. We were in between Ottawa and Montreal, though much closer to Ottawa.

If the conditions were right we could tune in the Montreal FM stations that played pop music, like CKOI, CKMF (Énergie) and Mix 96. If I were to dig out my old cassette mixtapes from that era (with songs recorded off the radio) they're primarily filled with stuff I "stole" off the air from those stations.

Ottawa had relatively few FM stations in those days and of those it had there was none that played pop music: CKBY (country), CHEZ 106 (rock - which we also listened to, but no Madonna or even Elton John on there), CFMO (easy listening) plus a few others. The main pop stations were on the AM dial at the time: CFRA 580 and CFGO 1200. Their programming was as good as any station in any other city but the sound was shitty due to being on AM. Today CFRA is news-talk and CFGO is TSN sports radio.

The first pop FM station in Canada's capital region was actually CKTF 104.1 in Gatineau (now known as Énergie). I just checked and it came on the air in 1988. Since it was the only game in town, lots of Ottawa anglophone kids listened to it and the station responded in kind by programming as much anglophone pop music it could during prime listening hours without getting into trouble with the CRTC - it was a francophone station and as such had quotas of French music it had to respect. They did get into trouble and were fined by the CRTC a number of times IIRC.

It wasn't until the first half of the 1990s (1993 or so?) that Ottawa finally got a fully anglophone pop station on the FM dial: CKKL, branded as KOOL FM at 93.9.

Today there are at least two, maybe even three anglophone FM pop stations in Ottawa.
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  #99  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2019, 4:27 PM
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^ It's kind of weird to think that as recently as the 80s, some of the biggest music stations in town were still on the AM dial (a time when FM was already well entrenched). 58 CKY, 13 CFRW... so weird. It's almost unimaginable now.

These days AM around here is the domain of talk, rural country music-focused stations and niche products like ethnic and sports broadcasting. I think the last Winnipeg AM music station closed down several years ago.
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  #100  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2019, 4:32 PM
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To answer kool's original question, in my opinion it boils down to buildings and people. Some might have more of one than the other, but it's always those two things. And the places that feel biggest aren't always actually the biggest... Hong Kong is the master of this, there are several million people jammed into a small area which makes it feel unbelievably huge even though there are less impressive cities with larger populations.

As suggested in the original post, cities with some kind of geographic constraints that serve to hem them in a little generally tend to feel bigger as a result. Sprawling prairie cities tend to be at a bit of a disadvantage in this regard. A city with the population of Halifax centred around a harbour feels much bigger than it would be if it was set on the Great Plains.
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