Should Vancouver build over the 1200 ft development limit?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

There was a reason SEFC and NEFC were the last parts of the area to develop, and one of them was probably CANRON. Condos weren’t even supposed to BE in NEFC originally, and SEFC only really started planning once CANRON shut down. Unless you can get Pacific Coast Terminals to shut down... and CANRON only left because their facility burned down. If it didn’t, SEFC might never have gone through.

Pretty sure the “75,000 square feet of live/work space for artists and other creative industries” is actually a subsection of the 103 000 sq ft Industrial, but whatever. Vancouver added 3.2 MILLION sq feet in 2014-2015 alone. https://www.avisonyoung.com/fileDown...Spring2015.pdf

You mean the River Rock and Marine Gateway DIRECTLY connected to Skytrain (as in physically connected)... Really? Also, again with the rail spur?

Yes, I know Port Moody doesn’t want the industrial to stay but neither does it want density anyways. Just money grabs.

If it wasn't a fire, it would've been something else, just like the Burrard Molson. We can save the small-scale industries, but many of the factories and foundries and mills are eventually going to leave or be pushed out.

Most likely, yes - what I'm saying is that two blocks =/= useless. It's enough for something Port Moody's size, and the town can always grow out as demand requires it to.

Yes with the rail spur. Unless Pacific Coast has been sharing all this time?
I was not aware that high density had to be right beside a SkyTrain (I trust that I don't need to drag any redevelopment into that particular point?), nor that Marine Gateway is "connected" to the station. Either the 800m SkyTrain catchment radius applies, or it does not.

The North Shore munis and Ioco are making the best of a bad situation, but Port Moody is in it for the money? ... I don't follow.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

If it wasn't a fire, it would've been something else, just like the Burrard Molson. We can save the small-scale industries, but many of the factories and foundries and mills are eventually going to leave or be pushed out.

Most likely, yes - what I'm saying is that two blocks =/= useless. It's enough for something Port Moody's size, and the town can always grow out as demand requires it to.

Yes with the rail spur. Unless Pacific Coast has been sharing all this time?
I was not aware that high density had to be right beside a SkyTrain (I trust that I don't need to drag any redevelopment into that particular point?), nor that Marine Gateway is "connected" to the station. Either the 800m SkyTrain catchment radius applies, or it does not.

The North Shore munis and Ioco are making the best of a bad situation, but Port Moody is in it for the money? ... I don't follow.

...Molson shut down, but that doesn't mean there wouldn't be anything else to take its place...at least if Concord didn't snatch it up. Same case with Flavelle.

With CANRON, the city owned the land. And there wasn't a industrial land crisis yet. And it's False Creek. And then the Olympics came along, and that sealed its fate.



1. They can just build a rail spur.
2. The industrial being built in areas like Campbell Heights don't have rail spurs either.

And no, the reason it's a money grab is multifold:
1. Port Moody NIMBYs care about their city becoming 'Metrotownified' more than anything. Flavelle isn't even supported much in Port Moody.
For instance, from a NIMBY article against the expansion of Moody Center:
https://metrovanwatch.wordpress.com/...ntre-bulletin/

50% support for the “Oceanfront District” (currently Mill and Timber)
51% support for Moody Centre transit-oriented development
54% support for Inlet Centre transit-oriented development

Supposedly from the Public Consultations when the Evergreen came in. Unfortunately, the links to the sources are dead due to age.

Logically therefore, the logical solution would be to spread out density over the Moody Center corridor, like the Cambie Corridor plan did. But no, let's fufill their fears instead for a 'waterfront district' that was only allowed once we asked multiple times to get Metro Van to change the zoning.

That are population doesn't want, and would be pissed about development no matter where it is.


It's Fraser Mills, close to Skytrain. The North Shore munis (at least 2 of them) actually care about maintaining both industrial lands and densifying where it actually makes the most sense, rather than simply the easiest.

Ioco is actually Port Moody, and the current plan is to put a couple of SFHs on part of the property, with no improvement in road infrastructure.(and this is a place where you definitely need to put the horse before the cart!)





My point with those places is that industrial land is developed on the RGS... (and should be) if either:
1. It's a town center (this is really only sometimes though)- due to town centers requiring "mass" that may not be able to be provided on just residential and commercial lots- especially Brentwood and Richmond.

2. It's right next to a Skytrain station- as in right across the street or touching. (Braid-Amazon, Saputo, Brewery District, Marine Drive)- Scott Road is the closest to being far from its Skytrain station, but the furthest that FTDA goes is 500m out- for Flavelle, it's a km. And part of the reason for its existence seems to be the proposed Surrey Stadium.

Flavelle is the odd one out, isn't even part of an FTDA (not that important in reality, but still) and only happened because Port Moody council kept demanding it happen. So metro Van eventually folded.
Not even TOL was as aggressive with Carvolth. They gave up and are building it out like the Flats instead.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

...Molson shut down, but that doesn't mean there wouldn't be anything else to take its place...at least if Concord didn't snatch it up. Same case with Flavelle.

With CANRON, the city owned the land. And there wasn't a industrial land crisis yet. And it's False Creek. And then the Olympics came along, and that sealed its fate.



1. They can just build a rail spur.
2. The industrial being built in areas like Campbell Heights don't have rail spurs either.

And no, the reason it's a money grab is multifold:
1. Port Moody NIMBYs care about their city becoming 'Metrotownified' more than anything. Flavelle isn't even supported much in Port Moody.
For instance, from a NIMBY article against the expansion of Moody Center:
https://metrovanwatch.wordpress.com/...ntre-bulletin/

Supposedly from the Public Consultations when the Evergreen came in. Unfortunately, the links to the sources are dead due to age.

Logically therefore, the logical solution would be to spread out density over the Moody Center corridor, like the Cambie Corridor plan did. But no, let's fufill their fears instead for a 'waterfront district' that was only allowed once we asked multiple times to get Metro Van to change the zoning.

That are population doesn't want, and would be pissed about development no matter where it is.


It's Fraser Mills, close to Skytrain. The North Shore munis (at least 2 of them) actually care about maintaining both industrial lands and densifying where it actually makes the most sense, rather than simply the easiest.

Ioco is actually Port Moody, and the current plan is to put a couple of SFHs on part of the property, with no improvement in road infrastructure.(and this is a place where you definitely need to put the horse before the cart!)





My point with those places is that industrial land is developed on the RGS... (and should be) if either:
1. It's a town center (this is really only sometimes though)- due to town centers requiring "mass" that may not be able to be provided on just residential and commercial lots- especially Brentwood and Richmond.

2. It's right next to a Skytrain station- as in right across the street or touching. (Braid-Amazon, Saputo, Brewery District, Marine Drive)- Scott Road is the closest to being far from its Skytrain station, but the furthest that FTDA goes is 500m out- for Flavelle, it's a km. And part of the reason for its existence seems to be the proposed Surrey Stadium.

Flavelle is the odd one out, isn't even part of an FTDA (not that important in reality, but still) and only happened because Port Moody council kept demanding it happen. So metro Van eventually folded.
Not even TOL was as aggressive with Carvolth. They gave up and are building it out like the Flats instead.

Replacements? Other factory-sized industries that also find the inner city too expensive and too cramped to operate? Industry in the urban areas takes the form of craft beer and carpenters now; the factory-sized industries are moving outward.

1) Where? There's practically no room for an adequate length of track.
2) No, instead Campbell's got a country freeway with access to Peace Arch and minimal red lights. Much easier for truckers and local traffic alike.

To nobody's surprise, there's a lot of hippie reactionaries in Port Moody. There's an equally loud resistance to "money grabs" in the West Side like five-storey MIRHPPs, so public outrage shouldn't count for anything.

As for Cambie, it's scheduled for an entire Flavelle-sized development on and around Oakridge; SkyTrain proximity notwithstanding, the CoV plans its density both clustered and spread out, so they're not really analogous.
The suburbs OTOH (e.g. Burnaby, Coquitlam, etc) have plans for 30-40 floors all the way to the 500-600m mark and seem to be in a race for the tallest condo. Again, not defending Port Moody or suggesting that Flavelle's a good idea, but there is a precedent, and it shouldn't turn out any better or worse than the other town centres; if they want to throw smart planning out the window in exchange for quick growth, can we really fault Moody Council for doing the same?

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Replacements? Other factory-sized industries that also find the inner city too expensive and too cramped to operate? Industry in the urban areas takes the form of craft beer and carpenters now; the factory-sized industries are moving outward.

1) Where? There's practically no room for an adequate length of track.
2) No, instead Campbell's got a country freeway with access to Peace Arch and minimal red lights. Much easier for truckers and local traffic alike.

To nobody's surprise, there's a lot of hippie reactionaries in Port Moody. There's an equally loud resistance to "money grabs" in the West Side like five-storey MIRHPPs, so public outrage shouldn't count for anything.

As for Cambie, it's scheduled for an entire Flavelle-sized development on and around Oakridge; SkyTrain proximity notwithstanding, the CoV plans its density both clustered and spread out, so they're not really analogous.
The suburbs OTOH (e.g. Burnaby, Coquitlam, etc) have plans for 30-40 floors all the way to the 500-600m mark and seem to be in a race for the tallest condo. Again, not defending Port Moody or suggesting that Flavelle's a good idea, but there is a precedent, and it shouldn't turn out any better or worse than the other town centres; if they want to throw smart planning out the window in exchange for quick growth, can we really fault Moody Council for doing the same?

Tue, for the most part, but
1. Food Row exists despite being a similar distance from the DT towers and being closer to Skytrain.
2. They can subdivide the lot for multiple tenants. The original building isn’t required to survive.
I’d like to point out that even in places like Big Bend and Marine Drive, with warehouses and urban roads but a rail nearby, most of the warehouses don’t even bother connecting themselves onto the rail line. This isn’t the 1900s anymore.
Flavelle or Molson? The former definitely does, the latter...no.

Oakridge in this context is Inlet or Coq Central. Yes, 500m out.. on Sites mostly in the Town Centers. The others are only that way because the original industrial site was that big, or Scott Road.

Yes, it’s understandable, but I’m still faulting them for it and telling them it’s a bad idea and a cash grab.


Inlet Center is partially built on SFHs and barely has less support than building on industrial. In other words, NIMBYs don’t seem to care so much about the Grand Bargain in this case, so why evoke it? The one I listed was even FOR keeping the site industrial due to the land shortage.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Tue, for the most part, but
1. Food Row exists despite being a similar distance from the DT towers and being closer to Skytrain.
2. They can subdivide the lot for multiple tenants. The original building isn’t required to survive.
I’d like to point out that even in places like Big Bend and Marine Drive, with warehouses and urban roads but a rail nearby, most of the warehouses don’t even bother connecting themselves onto the rail line. This isn’t the 1900s anymore.
Flavelle or Molson? The former definitely does, the latter...no.

Oakridge in this context is Inlet or Coq Central. Yes, 500m out.. on Sites mostly in the Town Centers. The others are only that way because the original industrial site was that big, or Scott Road.

Yes, it’s understandable, but I’m still faulting them for it and telling them it’s a bad idea and a cash grab.


Inlet Center is partially built on SFHs and barely has less support than building on industrial. In other words, NIMBYs don’t seem to care so much about the Grand Bargain in this case, so why evoke it? The one I listed was even FOR keeping the site industrial due to the land shortage.

Warehouses and studios can make do with trucks; refineries, less so.
1) Produce Row has two things going in their favour: that the CoV is dead set on keeping their industry, and that grocers are much more important to a city than lumber or beer.
2) Flavelle kind of did subdivide - it's just that there isn't as much small industrial space as you'd like.

The closest Port Moody has to a town centre is basically Newport and Suter Brook, which residents were also opposed to; if we're intent on the Oakridge analogy, Flavelle would be out by the Oak Street depot & Jewish Community Centre (also being developed, albeit not as high as a town centre).

True, if residents are opposed to anything anywhere, Moody could build basically wherever they want - but why not evict just one owner instead of two dozen smaller ones? Don't like it, but I understand it.

[jlousa]

Okay guys enough with the off topic discussion. All future posts off topic will be deleted.

[jollyburger]

This book says the 1200m development restriction in the 50s was set because it was impossible to get water service above it.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=N1l...page&q&f=false

[Migrant_Coconut]

I'm assuming that new pumping technology has made that restriction void?