Canadian Maps and Graphics

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

In the case of the Cherokee Nation from the US southeast, their "migration" was forced (trail of tears), and is certainly a much more blatant and obvious form of lethal and deliberate ethnic cleansing than the residential schools up here ever were.

Has Andrew Jackson been as vilified to the same level as the Confederate leadership (Lee, Davis, Forrest, etc)? He was a slave-owner and the key architect of the Trail of Tears. But because he was President of the USA does that give him a pass?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Has Andrew Jackson been as vilified to the same level as the Confederate leadership (Lee, Davis, Forrest, etc)? He was a slave-owner and the key architect of the Trail of Tears. But because he was President of the USA does that give him a pass?

In many ways, he has been given a pass. He was a horrible president. He however was the "Hero of New Orleans", and as such, is kinda considered the "victor" of the War of 1812, despite the fact that the Treaty of Ghent had been signed and the war was legally over by the time the battle was fought.

Jackson was a backwoods rube, an anglophobe, a racist, a vicious land speculator a genocidal maniac, and widely considered by most historians as the worst president in American history (at least until Trump).

The main reason for the Trail of Tears was to clear land for land speculation, especially in Georgia. This made Jackson a wealthy man. He was clearly a sociopath. His is a moral kinsman of Donald Trump.

But, hey, he won the Battle of New Orleans.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

In many ways, he has been given a pass. He was a horrible president. He however was the "Hero of New Orleans", and as such, is kinda considered the "victor" of the War of 1812, despite the fact that the Treaty of Ghent had been signed and the war was legally over by the time the battle was fought.

Jackson was a backwoods rube, an anglophobe, a racist, a vicious land speculator a genocidal maniac, and widely considered by most historians as the worst president in American history (at least until Trump).

The main reason for the Trail of Tears was to clear land for land speculation, especially in Georgia. This made Jackson a wealthy man. He was clearly a sociopath. His is a moral kinsman of Donald Trump.

But, hey, he won the Battle of New Orleans.

He even got a rousing hit song by Johnny Horton.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__uFnEMJqjg

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

He even got a rousing hit song by Johnny Horton.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__uFnEMJqjg

And a number of cities and counties in the US are named for him, including Jackson, the capital of Mississippi. He is particularly revered in the south. And, oh yes, I forgot he was a slave owner.

I wonder if anyone has ever toppled an Andrew Jackson statue? But, hey, John A. MacDonald, he was a really bad dude...............

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

In many ways, he has been given a pass. He was a horrible president. He however was the "Hero of New Orleans", and as such, is kinda considered the "victor" of the War of 1812, despite the fact that the Treaty of Ghent had been signed and the war was legally over by the time the battle was fought.

Jackson was a backwoods rube, an anglophobe, a racist, a vicious land speculator a genocidal maniac, and widely considered by most historians as the worst president in American history (at least until Trump).

The main reason for the Trail of Tears was to clear land for land speculation, especially in Georgia. This made Jackson a wealthy man. He was clearly a sociopath. His is a moral kinsman of Donald Trump.

But, hey, he won the Battle of New Orleans.

Land speculation in the Ohio Valley was the main reason for the American Uprising of 1775.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

Some of that will be from Labrador.

I don't think describing what happened to the Beothuk as genocide really makes any sense and it played out before any modern Newfoundland government existed. They interacted with the Vikings and by the 1400's and 1500's they were withdrawing from European contact. They lived to some degree in competition with the Mi'kmaq who were some of the friendliest toward Europeans and by the 1700's had sailing ships and guns. It is a little bit like what happened in New Zealand or Hawaii.

The governor of Newfoundland declared that it was a capital crime to murder any natives in 1769, 60 years before the Trail of Tears began. The last known Beothuk lived out their lives in towns and villages in Newfoundland in the early 1800's.

The Mi'kmaq had the Peace and Friendship treaties with the British crown that began in 1725 and the infamous Cornwallis scalping policy was before the 1752 treaty: https://www.rcaanc-cirnac.gc.ca/eng/.../1581293867988

One of the most vivid memories I have from my history books in school was a painting of Newfoundland settlers chasing down a terrified Beothuk family.

Before getting into the nitty gritty of what genocide is, I'd argue that present-day Newfoundland (and to some degree Canada) is the heir and successor entity to the Euro-British governance that preceded it. It's all on a single continuum.

With respect to genocide, well there is debate today as to what that actually means. (Or more accurately, people have their own entrenched selective views as to what it means and shut down debate with those whose opinions differ.)

A majority of Canadians probably view residential schools as a genocide right now, whereas most of them probably would disagree that the expulsion of the Acadiens was a genocide. (If they've even heard about the latter.)

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Land speculation in the Ohio Valley was the main reason for the American Uprising of 1775.

Indeed. The Yanks were particularly peeved at the Brits by the Quebec Act, which was principally designed to protect the Ohio country from the speculators and buy peace with the native population.

[MonctonRad]

Why is it that Canadians know more about American history than most Americans???

At least the history we know is more factual and less jingoistic and patriotic...........

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Indeed. The Yanks were particularly peeved at the Brits by the Quebec Act, which was principally designed to protect the Ohio country from the speculators and buy peace with the native population.

Don't tell citizens of the USA that. In their mind the revolution was done to throw off the yoke of an absolute monarch and to establish a most perfect state for free people (except if you were poor, native, black, or Irish )

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Why is it that Canadians know more about American history than most Americans???

At least the history we know is more factual and less jingoistic and patriotic...........

Don't worry Rad, we are importing USA stupidity at a rapid rate!

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A majority of Canadians probably view residential schools as a genocide right now, whereas most of them probably would disagree that the expulsion of the Acadiens was a genocide. (If they've even heard about the latter.)

I suspect that in the future, once the hysteria has settled down, the issue of residential schools will be recognized as a complex topic, but, that part of this was an attempt at cultural genocide, although, it could be argued that the attempt was not so much aimed at extirpation as it was assimilation and education. C'est le meme chose? Perhaps........

The residential school system was heavy handed, culturally insensitive and wrong. The perpetrators however were were not being deliberately genocidal, and, in the context of the times, probably felt that what they were doing was in the best interests of the native population, so that they could become productive Canadian citizens. Was the policy racist? Absolutely! But, historical context matters.

Similarly with the Acadian expulsion, context matters. Nova Scotia had been under British governance for over 60 years when the expulsion occurred, but, the English population was still in the minority and heavily concentrated in only a few pockets, notably around Halifax. Acadians on the other hand were more widely distributed, and had formed an alliance with native Mi'kmaq bands. They had refused to swear an oath of allegiance to the British crown, and were engaged in active guerilla warfare with the English settlers, harassing homesteads along the frontier. The English authorities most definitely felt threatened by this guerilla activity.

The onset of the Seven Years War in 1755, provided Governor Lawrence with a unique opportunity. Robert Monckton had captured Fort Beausejour quite quickly, and had a large number of New England militiamen still under contract in the area, not doing anything in particular. He issued a final ultimatum to the restive Acadians to swear allegiance and disarm (which they refused). This of course was just a pretext so that he could use the New England militia to round up the Acadians and settle the Acadian problem once and for all.

Was this a genocide? I suppose it was, but, given the context, the Acadians were at least partly the authors of their own misfortune because of the continual guerilla warfare and lack of respect for British governance. I should also be remembered that the perpetrator of the genocide was not really the British crown. The villain was Governor Lawrence. He ordered the deportation without the knowledge of the King or colonial authorities in London. In other words, it was not a state sanctioned genocide.

Again, context matters.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Why is it that Canadians know more about American history than most Americans???

At least the history we know is more factual and less jingoistic and patriotic...........

When I first read this quickly, I thought you were saying that Canadians know American history better than they know their own Canadian history.

Which might also be true.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

When I first read this quickly, I thought you were saying that Canadians know American history better than they know their own Canadian history.

Which might also be true.

Canadian history is North American history, at least until the Revolutionary War, and arguably until the War of 1812, if not the Civil War. Once the frontier between the two nations was settled, then there was historical divergence.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I suspect that in the future, once the hysteria has settled down, the issue of residential schools will be recognized as a complex topic, but, that part of this was an attempt at cultural genocide, although, it could be argued that the attempt was not so much aimed at extirpation as it was assimilation and education. C'est le meme chose? Perhaps........

The residential school system was heavy handed, culturally insensitive and wrong. The perpetrators however were were not being deliberately genocidal, and, in the context of the times, probably felt that what they were doing was in the best interests of the native population, so that they could become productive Canadian citizens. Was the policy racist? Absolutely! But, historical context matters.

Similarly with the Acadian expulsion, context matters. Nova Scotia had been under British governance for over 60 years when the expulsion occurred, but, the English population was still in the minority and heavily concentrated in only a few pockets, notably around Halifax. Acadians on the other hand were more widely distributed, and had formed an alliance with native Mi'kmaq bands. They had refused to swear an oath of allegiance to the British crown, and were engaged in active guerilla warfare with the English settlers, harassing homesteads along the frontier. The English authorities most definitely felt threatened by this guerilla activity.

The onset of the Seven Years War in 1755, provided Governor Lawrence with a unique opportunity. Robert Monckton had captured Fort Beausejour quite quickly, and had a large number of New England militiamen still under contract in the area, not doing anything in particular. He issued a final ultimatum to the restive Acadians to swear allegiance and disarm (which they refused). This of course was just a pretext so that he could use the New England militia to round up the Acadians and settle the Acadian problem once and for all.

Was this a genocide? I suppose it was, but, given the context, the Acadians were at least partly the authors of their own misfortune because of the continual guerilla warfare and lack of respect for British governance. I should also be remembered that the perpetrator of the genocide was not really the British crown. The villain was Governor Lawrence. He ordered the deportation without the knowledge of the King or colonial authorities in London. In other words, it was not a state sanctioned genocide.

Again, context matters.

My Acadien ancestors were also sitting on the best agricultural land in all of Atlantic Canada, blessed with a pretty decent micro-climate. There are basically zero Acadiens living in this region (Annapolis Valley) today.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My Acadien ancestors were also sitting on the best agricultural land in all of Atlantic Canada, blessed with a pretty decent micro-climate. There are basically zero Acadiens living in this region (Annapolis Valley) today.

Agreed. And, speaking of land speculation, the first thing Governor Lawrence did after the expulsion was to get in contact with his old pal Governor Shirley of Massachusetts, and arrange to sell all this grade "A" farmland to immigrant planters from New England.

You could argue that this was merely an attempt to keep the land productive, and to create a new population of loyal subjects to the Crown, but, somebody made a lotta money...............

It was positively Jacksonesque.

Governor Lawrence was a piece of work.

[ConundrumNL]

Originally Posted by Architype

Today NL has lots of people claiming indigenous heritage, in hopes of benefiting in some way. I grew up in NL (island) and never met any indigenous except those from Labrador or Conne River, the one community of of Mikmaq on the South coast. The incidence of people claiming indigenous heritage (est. ~40%) does not line up with the historic reality.

Wonder if there has been a study done on the prevalence of indigenous ancestry in the NL European decent population. Remember 10 years ago when the Qalipu FN was recognized and nearly 20% of NLs population applied for membership.

I'm sure some of the applications were from people looking to scam the system, but I got to assume the majority believed they had legitimate claims.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Agreed. And, speaking of land speculation, the first thing Governor Lawrence did after the expulsion was to get in contact with his old pal Governor Shirley of Massachusetts, and arrange to sell all this grade "A" farmland to immigrant planters from New England.

You could argue that this was merely an attempt to keep the land productive, and to create a new population of loyal subjects to the Crown, but, somebody made a lotta money...............

It was positively Jacksonesque.

Governor Lawrence was a piece of work.

Acadiens weren't always associated with the sea. Initially they were farmers. But after the expulsion all of the decent agricultural land in the region was taken, so they were relegated to mostly rocky, unproductive terrain. They took to the sea to survive.

Hence all of the Acadien imagery related to the sea (the star of the seas in the corner of the flag, songs like Ave Maris Stella and Partons la mer est belle)...

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Canadian history is North American history, at least until the Revolutionary War, and arguably until the War of 1812, if not the Civil War. Once the frontier between the two nations was settled, then there was historical divergence.

You could argue that there has been 2 Civil Wars on the northern half of the NA Continent prior to the war between Mason Dixon Line. ARW and War of 1812, while civil wars by nature, were basically continuations of the Imperial wars between Britain and France over who would control the continent.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

You could argue that there has been 2 Civil Wars on the northern half of the NA Continent prior to the war between Mason Dixon Line. ARW and War of 1812, while civil wars by nature, were basically continuations of the Imperial wars between Britain and France over who would control the continent.

I have considered the Revolutionary War to be the "First American Civil War" for a long, long time. Andrew Morton wrote that at the time of the revolution, 1/3rd of the population of the colonies were revolutionaries, 1/3rd were loyalists, and 1/3rd just wanted to be left alone.

It was a war between brothers.

There were two daughter nations born by the Revolutionary War - the United States and Canada.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

One of the most vivid memories I have from my history books in school was a painting of Newfoundland settlers chasing down a terrified Beothuk family.

For genocide there has to be some kind of coordination and top-down intent. It is often pretty easy to establish historically since leaders didn't necessarily hide attempts to wipe out populations back then and conquering was often seen as a good thing. The Acadian history is well documented.

William Epps Cormack, who is said to be the first person of European descent to cross the island, did so in 1822. Shanawdithit died in St. John's in 1829. The island had a population density of around 0.5 people per square kilometer back then, and the British before that era didn't encourage much settlement.

Often we get selective readings of history. For example there is a war and both sides fight but the bad stuff done by only one side is reported. Most of the bad stuff in Canadian history happened within the context of war between the British and French empires. The French attacked the British as well but ended up losing. The Acadians happened to be living in the borderlands.