Winnipeg | Osborne Village & Corydon area

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by trueviking

Why did Corydon die?

von Stackleberg Agency??????

I wish someone with some experience and/or passion to change would lead the Corydon BIZ. It's clear they have no clue what direction they want to take or idea for the neighbourhood, which is unfortunate because now that all the (bad) sushi places left, this is a great time for a complete reinvention. I would love to have that job. Sorry but sculptures and bike racks aren't the end-all solution.

Corydon should embrace it's "summer status" and try and do something innovative — say, shut down one lane of traffic to have more patios/bike lanes/ table-top shops, and also look at options for getting more businesses on the south side.

It would also help if some of the 80 year old NIMBYs that fight every building/liquor permit would just die/move to a home already... sorry to put it so bluntly.

As an aside TV, does it bug you as much as it does me that the "terra cotta brick" wayfinding strips stop and start at each planter in the areas the sidewalks have been redone? It looks awful and so cheap.

[esquire]

It would be nice to see Corydon get freshened up a bit... the Café 22 expansion was a good start, but a few more pedestrian-friendly buildings like that would create a more interesting strip that would serve as a stronger draw. For instance, it would be great to see the former Organza site by Colosseo finally get built on... as well as redevelopments of the remaining duplexes between Nassau and Stafford. The Shell station is also a massive waste of space... they could easily accomplish the same functions with half the space they currently occupy. Things like that.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

It would be nice to see Corydon get freshened up a bit... the Café 22 expansion was a good start, but a few more pedestrian-friendly buildings like that would create a more interesting strip that would serve as a stronger draw. For instance, it would be great to see the former Organza site by Colosseo finally get built on... as well as redevelopments of the remaining duplexes between Nassau and Stafford. The Shell station is also a massive waste of space... they could easily accomplish the same functions with half the space they currently occupy. Things like that.

There's not much to this. All of Corydon is designated mixed use with commercial at grade. There's next to no retail or 'commercial' demand in the area, so the only thing left are restaurants. But since the neighbourhood has turned every liquor license hearing into a panicked circus, nobody's interested in the risk anymore. Consequently, nobody is willing to build.

End of the story, really. I've been through this a couple times. Sad to say, but Corydon is hopeless at the moment. It's going to take huge turnover of the citizens.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

There's not much to this. All of Corydon is designated mixed use with commercial at grade. There's next to no retail or 'commercial' demand in the area, so the only thing left are restaurants. But since the neighbourhood has turned every liquor license hearing into a panicked circus, nobody's interested in the risk anymore. Consequently, nobody is willing to build.

End of the story, really. I've been through this a couple times. Sad to say, but Corydon is hopeless at the moment. It's going to take huge turnover of the citizens.

Like I said — they'll all die soon. lol.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by buzzg

Like I said — they'll all die soon. lol.

Thing is, it's not the elderly. Not even close. By and large, the loudest, most involved people are the early to mid-40's people who bought their ramshackle hovels back in the late 90's, early 00's for a song. At the time they could be close to the action at virtually the same cost as buying in the north end. Over time, they matured and fixed up the place a little. Now, their lives don't entail getting hammered on a patio 3 nights a week and they'd prefer having somewhere to park their car so they've banded together to let everybody know that Corydon is their suburbia. The whole thing is so strange. I've sat in meetings with these neighbourhood representatives and the dissonance is mind-blowing. The way they talk about their neighbourhood and privacy they feel they're entitled to you'd think they were all living on 70' lots with 120' setbacks. Sometimes you have to remind them that their neighbour can virtually stand in his living room, reach into their kitchen and turn on the sink. They never once stop to think that when they bought a house on a street that had two apartment buildings mid-block that the whole suburban dream was probably never coming.

This might be considered gentrification in Winnipeg.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by buzzg

As an aside TV, does it bug you as much as it does me that the "terra cotta brick" wayfinding strips stop and start at each planter in the areas the sidewalks have been redone? It looks awful and so cheap.

ha...never noticed. I'll check it out next time.

[The Unknown Poster]

I havent been out that way other than for work in quite some time. When I was younger and Corydon was popular, I know many people that avoided it due to safety concerns (gangs) and the sense it was sort of a snobby area. For someone like me (and a few of my friends) we've had the misfortune of being recognized by people you dont want to be recognized by at other places and Corydon was a place to avoid.

Having said that, I was sitting on a bench outside my work building the other day (I dont generally attend this building but was there for a meeting) and it was very nice.

[esquire]

^ It's interesting how different our experiences are. I never felt like Corydon was a snobby area... it doesn't give off much of what I'd consider an "upscale" vibe so much as it is simply normal, mid-range stuff. There aren't really any high-end fine dining restaurants or designer boutiques on that strip, just some mid-range shops, eateries and that sort of thing. It's very Winnipeggy in that regard.

As for gangs/violence, I never really got that vibe at all... I mean, if you look hard you can notice a certain subtle presence, but unless you go looking for trouble it's unlikely that you'll find it.

I've never been a Corydon regular in the every-weekend sense, but I enjoyed spending time around there from time to time when I was younger, and even now I'll go with my family in the early evening for dinner on a patio(Sushi Ya is kid friendly), followed by a stroll down the street, gelati and visit to the playground. Perfect.

I think Corydon could be better as a destination (mainly by making it a more continuous strip from Pembina to Stafford), but even in its current form it's still pretty good. It's arguably the best pedestrian strip of its kind in Winnipeg... every competitor is lacking in some way.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ It's interesting how different our experiences are. I never felt like Corydon was a snobby area... it doesn't give off much of what I'd consider an "upscale" vibe so much as it is simply normal, mid-range stuff. There aren't really any high-end fine dining restaurants or designer boutiques on that strip, just some mid-range shops, eateries and that sort of thing. It's very Winnipeggy in that regard.

As for gangs/violence, I never really got that vibe at all... I mean, if you look hard you can notice a certain subtle presence, but unless you go looking for trouble it's unlikely that you'll find it.

I've never been a Corydon regular in the every-weekend sense, but I enjoyed spending time around there from time to time when I was younger, and even now I'll go with my family in the early evening for dinner on a patio(Sushi Ya is kid friendly), followed by a stroll down the street, gelati and visit to the playground. Perfect.

I think Corydon could be better as a destination (mainly by making it a more continuous strip from Pembina to Stafford), but even in its current form it's still pretty good. It's arguably the best pedestrian strip of its kind in Winnipeg... every competitor is lacking in some way.

Corydon is essentially seasonal; It needs rents and values that account for that. The idea of Corydon has always loomed larger than its own reality. With the exception of a few long-standing places, there's been significant turnover of ownership, if not concept, nearly everywhere else on the strip. It's difficult to run a business when you're nearly empty for 5 or 6 months of the year.

[esquire]

^ So is the seasonal nature of Corydon the reason that the Exchange is growing while Corydon has been a bit stagnant? The Exchange doesn't get the peaks and swells that Corydon gets on summer weekends, but there is a steadier year-round presence there.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

Corydon is essentially seasonal; It needs rents and values that account for that. The idea of Corydon has always loomed larger than its own reality. With the exception of a few long-standing places, there's been significant turnover of ownership, if not concept, nearly everywhere else on the strip. It's difficult to run a business when you're nearly empty for 5 or 6 months of the year.

Or you just actually open a business that merits people going all year round. When Bar I's patio is closed, they have bar nights that are busy in winter. Mano a Mano/Teo's actually has pretty good food so they do well. Burgers always sell. Niko's is good food, at a good price, and quick. The places that have been there for a while do well because they're actually worth going to. Half the problem of the last 5-10 years is that there were 15 sushi places and 3 of them were actually good. What proves this is that those good ones are the ones still standing — Kenko, Hanabi, Sushi Ya.

Even for shops — I heard rumours that Normandy is closing, which doesn't surprise me, they barely had any stock and it was absurdly overpriced. So overpriced in fact that if you ever asked them how much something was on Instagram they would say "we DM'd you the price" because they were so afraid of saying it in public.

[windypeg]

There are some good year-round bars and restaurants on Corydon, but it doesn't change the fact that there are only bars and restaurants. The exchange has such a healthy mix of uses with office, retail, food & bars, galleries, theatres, red river college etc that keep people there at all times. Corydon is still just a place people from the suburbs come in the summer when they want to drink on a patio. Hopefully that changes.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ So is the seasonal nature of Corydon the reason that the Exchange is growing while Corydon has been a bit stagnant? The Exchange doesn't get the peaks and swells that Corydon gets on summer weekends, but there is a steadier year-round presence there.

Who knows, really. The Exchange has come and gone as a popular destination for most of its second life so I wouldn't be considering anything a structural shift until it's managed to sustain itself for more than a few years at a time.

But there area a couple differences between Corydon and the Exchange:

1) There's an abundance of commercial space in the Exchange making all of it cheap. This has a lot to do with why these stores are sustainable at the moment. They'll have to stay cheap to address the seasonal nature of Winnipeg or get very good at moving items online. Corydon is only a couple blocks of one street.

2) The West Exchange - where most of the renaissance is occurring - is almost entirely devoid of residents. The East Exchange is more or less dead because of the residents. Commercial development and residents don't mix. The one case in the West Exchange where a bar tried to extend a patio was immediately shot down by the residents and any success in gentrifying the community will kill all future commercial development in the way people have grown to enjoy it. This is Corydon in a nutshell but the Exchange is a decade or so behind at the moment. When slumlords owned illegal triplexes up and down McMillan and Jessie they didn't care what happened and their renters had no say. But when people started buying those houses to live in, that was the end of it.

One thing they both have in common is that, like Corydon, 'Downtown' is trendy at the moment and areas move with the times. That goes for pretty much everywhere. 10-15 years ago downtown wasn't fashionable because the trends favoured other aesthetics. Von Dutch trucker hats and $400 7even jeans did well in places like Bar Italia because Corydon represented an inner city suburbia. Today the trends are towards things that are better represented by 'character'-driven, dirty, downtown environments, but that will change too. It's sort of notable that eChildren is one of the only stores in the Exchange that never turns over. The rest will go out with their clientele. There was once a decent retail presence on Corydon too.

There's sort of an irony in the whole thing. These stores have to cluster in order to attract the suburban shopper who can park their car and walk. But clustering in an area means that rents go up, available parking goes down, and now you have suburban clients who think twice about driving downtown to do any shopping. At the same time, you end up with residents who fall in love with the area when they're younger, move into it, then mature and want all the disruption to go away. We really saw Corydon go through a full life cycle between the early 90's and the mid 00's. We're starting to see some of it with Osborne Village. And we'll see the same with the Exchange. Neighbourhoods have interesting life cycles. I'm curious to see what happens with Sherbrook.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by buzzg

Or you just actually open a business that merits people going all year round. When Bar I's patio is closed, they have bar nights that are busy in winter. Mano a Mano/Teo's actually has pretty good food so they do well. Burgers always sell. Niko's is good food, at a good price, and quick. The places that have been there for a while do well because they're actually worth going to. Half the problem of the last 5-10 years is that there were 15 sushi places and 3 of them were actually good. What proves this is that those good ones are the ones still standing — Kenko, Hanabi, Sushi Ya.

Even for shops — I heard rumours that Normandy is closing, which doesn't surprise me, they barely had any stock and it was absurdly overpriced. So overpriced in fact that if you ever asked them how much something was on Instagram they would say "we DM'd you the price" because they were so afraid of saying it in public.

Sure, but people have to want to come. You can't really sustain an area on a couple small restaurants. Those sushi places were able to move in because nobody else wanted to. They're not really the problem; they're more indicative of it.

People have to remember that not everywhere can deliver quality all the time because most people aren't interested in paying for it. Quality costs money. In a mostly middle-class city of ~730k people there are only ever going to be a finite number of places that can deliver consistent quality while still being sustainable. It's always talked about that the commercial community needs to create 'destinations'. Except that very small segments of the population are looking for 'destinations'; most are looking for convenience and value. Clustering 'destinations' is a sure-fire way for nearly all of the those 'destinations' to fail in a city as small and middle class as ours is. And if you look at any of our trendy areas, they generally have one, maybe two real 'destinations' while the rest of the area struggles with turnover.

[buzzg]

Moral of the story is Rapid Transit for all.

[esquire]

For what it's worth I'd wouldn't want Corydon to become something radically different than what it is now... Whyte Ave in Edmonton always had a bit of a mall like feel to me, basically an overbuilt playground for suburbanites. I think the ideal is to have a multitude of smaller, Corydon-like strips aimed mostly at people in the local area. Corydon is the model, but others are getting there including Sherbrook, South Osborne and Provencher.

[The Unknown Poster]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ It's interesting how different our experiences are. I never felt like Corydon was a snobby area... it doesn't give off much of what I'd consider an "upscale" vibe so much as it is simply normal, mid-range stuff. There aren't really any high-end fine dining restaurants or designer boutiques on that strip, just some mid-range shops, eateries and that sort of thing. It's very Winnipeggy in that regard.

As for gangs/violence, I never really got that vibe at all... I mean, if you look hard you can notice a certain subtle presence, but unless you go looking for trouble it's unlikely that you'll find it.

I've never been a Corydon regular in the every-weekend sense, but I enjoyed spending time around there from time to time when I was younger, and even now I'll go with my family in the early evening for dinner on a patio(Sushi Ya is kid friendly), followed by a stroll down the street, gelati and visit to the playground. Perfect.

I think Corydon could be better as a destination (mainly by making it a more continuous strip from Pembina to Stafford), but even in its current form it's still pretty good. It's arguably the best pedestrian strip of its kind in Winnipeg... every competitor is lacking in some way.

It was very much an organized gang area for awhile, a couple of shootings and brawls too. There was some separation down racial lines too. Like I said, I wasnt a regular, but the handful of times I was there, I wasnt left with a warm feeling but I was also attacked at Pier 7 of all places by 20 guys who remembered us from a couple of years earlier. I guess if you've never had an issue you might not have an issue. My circle of friends generally avoided it through.

[esquire]

^ I have to admit I avoided Dirty Laundry/SPIN/whatever else it has been called due to a shady reputation (although nothing ever happened to me there during the times where I did drop in). My WPS buddies won't go near Bar I either. So I'm vaguely aware of the issues but being a civilian who is not involved in the world of cops and robbers, I can't say that I really notice those things. I suspect that most of the shenanigans go on well after I have gone home for the evening... I haven't been out on Corydon past midnight since I don't remember when.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I have to admit I avoided Dirty Laundry/SPIN/whatever else it has been called due to a shady reputation (although nothing ever happened to me there during the times where I did drop in). My WPS buddies won't go near Bar I either. So I'm vaguely aware of the issues but being a civilian who is not involved in the world of cops and robbers, I can't say that I really notice those things. I suspect that most of the shenanigans go on well after I have gone home for the evening... I haven't been out on Corydon past midnight since I don't remember when.

I ended up at Saffron's one late-winter evening this year for a birthday. Probably sometime in April. Anyway, I hailed a cab around midnight or so and was struck by how completely dead the street was and it wasn't a particularly cold evening at all. I asked the cabbie on the way home how his evening was going and he went on to say that he drives nearly every night and has for years. He said his business on Corydon in the winter is now nearly non-existent. I get the feeling that a lot of people who once considered Corydon their stomping grounds have simply aged out.

[steveosnyder]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

The West Exchange - where most of the renaissance is occurring - is almost entirely devoid of residents. The East Exchange is more or less dead because of the residents. Commercial development and residents don't mix. The one case in the West Exchange where a bar tried to extend a patio was immediately shot down by the residents and any success in gentrifying the community will kill all future commercial development in the way people have grown to enjoy it. This is Corydon in a nutshell but the Exchange is a decade or so behind at the moment. When slumlords owned illegal triplexes up and down McMillan and Jessie they didn't care what happened and their renters had no say. But when people started buying those houses to live in, that was the end of it.

This isn't completely true -- West exchange has residence interdispersed in the area... Above Shwarma Khan/Tiny Feast, above the Peasant Cookery, behind King's Head, the hemisphere building, penthouse... I wouldn't say it's anything what the East Exchange is getting, but it is developing on its own.