AUSTIN | Transportation Updates

[H2O]

Originally Posted by urbancore

This is all nice and good....till UP tells them to pound sand.....again.

UP would probably need a separate line to ensure no disruptions in their work.....can even fathom what that would cost and entail.

Millions were spent on this exercise 10 years ago, and UP said basically, "we are all ears, but we will never allow disruptions to our business". So how would that work? It won't.

I think the one difference now is that Amtrak seems to be at the table. I believe federal legislation gives Amtrak the right to operate on freight lines, so if it was really just enhancing the existing Amtrak service, UP might not have an option other than to cooperate.

[drummer]

Originally Posted by H2O

I think the one difference now is that Amtrak seems to be at the table. I believe federal legislation gives Amtrak the right to operate on freight lines, so if it was really just enhancing the existing Amtrak service, UP might not have an option other than to cooperate.

True that they bring more clout to the discussion, but even Amtrak doesn't have priority over UP or BNSF trains on their lines. I recall taking the train from Dallas to Austin years ago when I was back on a visit (we lived in Asia at the time and didn't have a car here). The ride was nice - slow, especially compared to the HSR I had grown accustomed to, but nice enough. I think it took about 6 hours, but we could read, go to the snack car, gaze out the window, etc. All good things in the end. It was also before we had kids, but we've taken kids on trains multiple times since without issue.

My complaint was that the train was 2 hours late to Dallas because of an increase in freight traffic on the lines. Since Amtrak didn't own the lines, they were stuck at the previous stop, I presume. That was the biggest issue. A faster train with better locations for stops only does so much if it's not a dedicated line, and less so if passenger rail has the lowest priority.

I also don't believe UP is wrong to say, "Don't disrupt our business," nor do their customers who rely on them want that. (I don't think you're saying that either, urbancore.) They heavily invested in the lines (albeit with, I assume, massive federal and state subsidies over the decades). I'm not sure how the maintenance agreements work - if it's solely UP or if the state/feds subsidize that as well. I also know that BNSF has to pay UP to operate on their lines and vice versa. It's a big confusing mess before Amtrak or others are added to the mix.

All said, a dedicated passenger line will provide the greatest success, but it would also be at the greatest cost.

[futuresooner]

Originally Posted by Jdawgboy

I doubt this is going to cause a huge exodus if built. Basically it sounds like you want Austin to shrink and fail while SA gets all the benefit and growth. Doesn't make sense to me but

I have some friends who live in SA that actually do not want a bunch of Austinites moving down there as it will also inevitably increase property values down there as well.

"Huge exodus" and "shrink & fail" are some interesting, quite hyperbolic, takes on that statement.

It was more of a beneficial to SA take, IMO. Also, it was a more pointed aim at the "SA needs Austin more than the reverse" being quite a hilarious take by that member.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by drummer

True that they bring more clout to the discussion, but even Amtrak doesn't have priority over UP or BNSF trains on their lines.

They do. But the freight railroads basically flout the laws, and have for decades.


https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/p...eport-Card.pdf

[urbancore]

Originally Posted by drummer

True that they bring more clout to the discussion, but even Amtrak doesn't have priority over UP or BNSF trains on their lines. I recall taking the train from Dallas to Austin years ago when I was back on a visit (we lived in Asia at the time and didn't have a car here). The ride was nice - slow, especially compared to the HSR I had grown accustomed to, but nice enough. I think it took about 6 hours, but we could read, go to the snack car, gaze out the window, etc. All good things in the end. It was also before we had kids, but we've taken kids on trains multiple times since without issue.

My complaint was that the train was 2 hours late to Dallas because of an increase in freight traffic on the lines. Since Amtrak didn't own the lines, they were stuck at the previous stop, I presume. That was the biggest issue. A faster train with better locations for stops only does so much if it's not a dedicated line, and less so if passenger rail has the lowest priority.

I also don't believe UP is wrong to say, "Don't disrupt our business," nor do their customers who rely on them want that. (I don't think you're saying that either, urbancore.) They heavily invested in the lines (albeit with, I assume, massive federal and state subsidies over the decades). I'm not sure how the maintenance agreements work - if it's solely UP or if the state/feds subsidize that as well. I also know that BNSF has to pay UP to operate on their lines and vice versa. It's a big confusing mess before Amtrak or others are added to the mix.

All said, a dedicated passenger line will provide the greatest success, but it would also be at the greatest cost.

Running "on time" would be critical, indeed. A deal breaker for me to ride. I've ridden the bus (Greyhound) when I was younger to Corpus, SA, Dallas, etc. and it was a complete shit show. I've since taken the newer private busses to Houston to pick up cars I've purchased, and they were amazing...clean, cheap, and ON TIME.

Who would the primary rider this for? Tourists? Commuters? Students?

If we built another line, would it fit next to the current line? I think it would be a tight fit in a few places...maybe they could share a track in some areas and split off. I imagine it will be quite difficult to build along side TexDot rebuilding/repairing I35.

I drove to SA yesterday to pick up a Google Fiber extender (Google apparently doesn't have a retail store here any longer....boooo).....I left at 10am and was home by 12:35. (2.5 hours is pretty good) Granted I went to North Star Mall, not downtown, and I live in Zikler....so it wasn't so bad...but construction is ongoing all along I-35 damn near the entire distance. It seems to me construction has ALWAYS been ongoing in the Aus-SA corridor. Traffic was stop/go in a few areas, but typical 80mph/bumper to bumper driving....something I've always noticed about that drive. Feels like what driving Nascar must be like.

Nonetheless, I wouldn't take a train if I can drive it quicker myself. Time is important to me, especially as i age.
If there was a train to take.
I would have to drive to the station...pay for parking downtown + train ticket
Arrive at least 30 min early. So leave my house at 9am (comparing a hypothetical to my actual trip yesterday)
Board a train at 10a.
I would guess at least a 4 hour run time considering the train would stop 7 times (according to the previously proposed LStar Map)between downtown Austin and NStar Mall (SA Airport).
Walk in the heat/rain/cold from the SA Airport or take an Uber (more money)
Hit the Google Kiosk in the mall = 1 hour
Repeat trip in reverse...hopefully the train has a return trip within an hour.
4 Hour trip to DT Austin (est arrival 8pm....4+4+1+1)
Back home at 8:30-9p?


I happen to live very close to the DT train depot, so it would be easy for me to get there and get back, but most of Austin would need to commute to the depot 30-60 min, each way.

9am to 9pm door to door, and that is to say, zero delays. Which I would find completely unacceptable, yet would completely expect from any gov run agency, when I was a student before I had a car, my transportation was CapMetro....for a good couple years. Can't tell you how many times I was late, or I had to board hours early to be sure I wasn't late. in 1989, I was fired from the Olive Garden for being 10 min late.....due to the bus.

I can imagine the trip would cost at least $75-100 rt. My gas cost me about $25, i used about 1/4 tank RT.

I could get some work done. But I have talk and pace on the phone quite a bit, when I work. Probably not a great passenger experience for others, or me. I could gaze out the window, lets be honest...this route is hardly scenic.

I can only imagine this train would be used by enthusiasts, of which I am one. But I'm not an enthusiast at any cost. Taxpayers will most certainly subsidize a train 9 to 1 or more? I find that repugnant.

The cynic in me, which I push down everyday as a lifelong optimist, says this is an exercise that politicians and rail industry people use to raise money to study what they already know is improbable.

I can't see commuters riding it unless they lived and worked very close to the depots.
I can't see concert goers riding it, unless they arrived a day early and spent the night to ensure they did not miss their reservation/show.
I can't see students riding it, because who has that kind of time? and would the run times fit with students chaotic schedules. Doubtful.

So that leaves train geeks, retirees/wayward youth traveling the nation on the rail...the odd person who happens to live close to the depots, and parents who want to take their kids on a train ride (which would probably cost $200 RT for a fam of 4)

I understand everyone wants the US to have a train network like Asia or Europe, but we don't have near the density (in 90% of the country)to warrant the expense, that and we love our cars with zero sign of giving them up. With birth rates at historic lows and trending lower, anti density laws in most cities that aren't already dense, and the probability that autonomous cars will be commonplace long before a rail line would be up and running...I just don't see the need based on our current and/or future circumstances.

I know I'll get trashed here for my opinion, so lets go!

[H2O]

Originally Posted by drummer

True that they bring more clout to the discussion, but even Amtrak doesn't have priority over UP or BNSF trains on their lines. I recall taking the train from Dallas to Austin years ago when I was back on a visit (we lived in Asia at the time and didn't have a car here). The ride was nice - slow, especially compared to the HSR I had grown accustomed to, but nice enough. I think it took about 6 hours, but we could read, go to the snack car, gaze out the window, etc. All good things in the end. It was also before we had kids, but we've taken kids on trains multiple times since without issue.

My complaint was that the train was 2 hours late to Dallas because of an increase in freight traffic on the lines. Since Amtrak didn't own the lines, they were stuck at the previous stop, I presume. That was the biggest issue. A faster train with better locations for stops only does so much if it's not a dedicated line, and less so if passenger rail has the lowest priority.

I also don't believe UP is wrong to say, "Don't disrupt our business," nor do their customers who rely on them want that. (I don't think you're saying that either, urbancore.) They heavily invested in the lines (albeit with, I assume, massive federal and state subsidies over the decades). I'm not sure how the maintenance agreements work - if it's solely UP or if the state/feds subsidize that as well. I also know that BNSF has to pay UP to operate on their lines and vice versa. It's a big confusing mess before Amtrak or others are added to the mix.

All said, a dedicated passenger line will provide the greatest success, but it would also be at the greatest cost.

I suspect in order to operate commuter rail on the UP line, it would need to be double-tracked wherever possible to avoid delays from freight.

[Tyrone Shoes]

Originally Posted by H2O

I suspect in order to operate commuter rail on the UP line, it would need to be double-tracked wherever possible to avoid delays from freight.

why not triple track the commuter line to allow opposite direction travel

[atxsnail]

Originally Posted by drummer

True that they bring more clout to the discussion, but even Amtrak doesn't have priority over UP or BNSF trains on their lines.

Originally Posted by Novacek

They do. But the freight railroads basically flout the laws, and have for decades.


https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/p...eport-Card.pdf

Precision Scheduled Railroading is a fun little topic to research to see how freight operators are f-ing up a lot of things in the eternal pursuit of cost-cutting. Amtrak is one victim but so are rail workers and people who live along freight lines (particularly when bad accidents happen like in Ohio recently).

I think Well There's Your Problem had a pretty good episode devoted to it but I can't seem to find it right now.

[calesce]

Originally Posted by atxsnail

Precision Scheduled Railroading is a fun little topic to research to see how freight operators are f-ing up a lot of things in the eternal pursuit of cost-cutting. Amtrak is one victim but so are rail workers and people who live along freight lines (particularly when bad accidents happen like in Ohio recently).

I think Well There's Your Problem had a pretty good episode devoted to it but I can't seem to find it right now.

They talk about it quite a bit but I believe this one covers it the most (warning, 3+ hours long):

• Video Link

[drummer]

I knew a couple of folks who used Amtrak in college. It was a royal pain, but it was a decent price and they weren't in a rush. They would take rail to downtown Dallas, wait a bit for the train at Union Station, and take Amtrak up to the Chicago area to their homes. This was years ago, but it was a pretty good setup for them and saved them some money. They weren't in a rush, but it certainly isn't an ideal solution for most people.

On the other hand, when I lived in my first city in Asia, I could take a bus, taxi, or better yet - hop on the metro just below my building. Any of those three options could take me to the HSR station OR the airport. HSR could take me directly to Shanghai in an hour or Beijing in a few hours. If I was going to Shanghai, it usually took me to Hongqiao, and I could take a shuttle bus or the metro to Pudong Airport and fly back to Dallas or Austin. I could also fly from my city and make a connection to Dallas, but Shanghai was typically quite a bit cheaper.

Either way, I'll say again that I'm glad more folks who can actually (potentially) influence something are at the table for Texas. We desperately need it.

So far as who would use it between Austin and San Antonio:
* Students
* Tourists/Concert goers
* Families
* Business folks

The business folks and quick trip tourists would absolutely require a quick, dependable timetable to trust it. Students could be a bit more flexible and it really depends on the family before you can paint with a broad brush. We have three young kids and drive a minivan...but we would absolutely take the train if it were an option.

[Jdawgboy]

Originally Posted by drummer

I knew a couple of folks who used Amtrak in college. It was a royal pain, but it was a decent price and they weren't in a rush. They would take rail to downtown Dallas, wait a bit for the train at Union Station, and take Amtrak up to the Chicago area to their homes. This was years ago, but it was a pretty good setup for them and saved them some money. They weren't in a rush, but it certainly isn't an ideal solution for most people.

On the other hand, when I lived in my first city in Asia, I could take a bus, taxi, or better yet - hop on the metro just below my building. Any of those three options could take me to the HSR station OR the airport. HSR could take me directly to Shanghai in an hour or Beijing in a few hours. If I was going to Shanghai, it usually took me to Hongqiao, and I could take a shuttle bus or the metro to Pudong Airport and fly back to Dallas or Austin. I could also fly from my city and make a connection to Dallas, but Shanghai was typically quite a bit cheaper.

Either way, I'll say again that I'm glad more folks who can actually (potentially) influence something are at the table for Texas. We desperately need it.

So far as who would use it between Austin and San Antonio:
* Students
* Tourists/Concert goers
* Families
* Business folks

The business folks and quick trip tourists would absolutely require a quick, dependable timetable to trust it. Students could be a bit more flexible and it really depends on the family before you can paint with a broad brush. We have three young kids and drive a minivan...but we would absolutely take the train if it were an option.

Work commuters would benefit too. We do have a segment of the population that does indeed work in one city, live in the other and vice versa. Just yesterday at work I helped someone who works here and lives in SA, also have customers that work in SA and live here. I know this was covered on the forum a few years back about the percentage that do and while it may not be a large amount, having reliable train service would definitely benefit those people.

[drummer]

Originally Posted by Jdawgboy

Work commuters would benefit too. We do have a segment of the population that does indeed work in one city, live in the other and vice versa. Just yesterday at work I helped someone who works here and lives in SA, also have customers that work in SA and live here. I know this was covered on the forum a few years back about the percentage that do and while it may not be a large amount, having reliable train service would definitely benefit those people.

^^ And even more so as the two metros converge at an exponential rate.

[Tornado]

my spouse has to head to Austin once a month because her company has a presence in both SA and Austin. I think she'd prefer to avoid the all too common traffic jam between the two cities for fast and reliable rail service.

Also, I enjoy living in SA but always have a good time in Austin and would love to get up early, take the train on a Saturday morning to downtown, spend the day exploring/relaxing and then head back to SA after dinner.

[atxsnail]

Originally Posted by Tornado

my spouse has to head to Austin once a month because her company has a presence in both SA and Austin. I think she'd prefer to avoid the all too common traffic jam between the two cities for fast and reliable rail service.

Also, I enjoy living in SA but always have a good time in Austin and would love to get up early, take the train on a Saturday morning to downtown, spend the day exploring/relaxing and then head back to SA after dinner.

FWIW the current Amtrak service between Austin and San Antonio allows for this type of trip (and only this type). You'll just have to plan an early-ish dinner. Dinner might be early, but you can enjoy a beer or wine on the 3-hr trip home.

The daily Texas Eagle leaves San Antonio at 6:48am and arrives in Austin around 9:15am. The return leg leaves Austin at 7:20pm and arrives in San Antonio around 10:45pm. I believe this is the only service available between Austin and San Antonio.

[urbancore]

With at least 7 proposed stops between downtown Austin and SA, what does the run time between each city look like door to door? I’ll bet cha it won’t be faster or cheaper than one could drive, car pool.

Commuters would only use this train if it made their lives easier/cheaper/faster.

A 3rd line that had a bullet train that only stopped in SA and Austin, could work. But we need massive density (like major East/West Coast cities have) walking/biking distance to the depots to make it work.

[Tornado]

Yeah, I’d definitely want a nonstop acela style Austin / San Antonio connect and not the multi stop slower moving train.

[FrankLloydLeft]

Originally Posted by Tornado

Yeah, I’d definitely want a nonstop acela style Austin / San Antonio connect and not the multi stop slower moving train.

The best set up would be one where a "local" and "express" line could exist. The local line going something like:
Austin-Buda-Kyle- San Marcos- Gruene- New Braunfels- San Antonio

With an Express doing more like:
Austin- San Marcos- New Braunfels- San Antonio.

but in regards to the time it takes either way, it's fine if driving in little to no traffic is faster as long as the trains timing is consistent. People will choose the connivence of knowing it takes an hour there and an hour back vs a 50 min drive if timed right on 35, and a 2 hour drive back at the wrong time.

Personally what I think will be a bigger con to most people living here compared to out of state tourists utilizing this route is how accessible either city is from the train station without a car.

Depending on why they go ( weekend trip, see friends/family, work trip, etc) there's a solid chance the subpar transit in both cities and sprawl will make taking their own car seem like the better choice.

[urbancore]

Can’t imagine a rail service that would be an hour each way. It’s 80 miles away plus or minus.

That and you have to factor in the check in time/wait on a platform (15-30 min) in addition to the commute to the depot (15–60min each way) to make a real comparison to driving yourself.

Again, a commuter would only do a Aus-Sa route for school/work if they lived very close to the depot AND worked/attended school close to the opposite depot.

And realistically, how many people fit that situation?

Rich people living downtown, who work downtown in the opposite city? That’s who we are serving with this route? Really?

Who is the major user of this line?
What do they do?
Why are they riding it?
When would they ride it?
How much will they willingly pay?
Where are they coming from exactly?
Where are they going to exactly?
Do they require last mile transportation? If so, what does that look like?

How many cars would be taken off the road roughly and how does that translate to easing future traffic?

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by FrankLloydLeft

The best set up would be one where a "local" and "express" line could exist. The local line going something like:
Austin-Buda-Kyle- San Marcos- Gruene- New Braunfels- San Antonio

With an Express doing more like:
Austin- San Marcos- New Braunfels- San Antonio.

A complete build out should look like this (bolded are express service stations):

Taylor Spur:
• Taylor
• Hutto
• Dell Diamond
• Round Rock Original Plat @ Mays/McNeil

Georgetown Spur:
• Georgetown
• 1431/35
• Round Rock @ 79/35

Main Line:
• La Frontera @ McNeil/35
• Robinson Ranch @ CapMetro Red Line (transfer service available)
• Domain @ Braker/MoPac
• Anderson/MoPac
• 2222/MoPac
• Texas National Guard @ 45th/MoPac
• Downtown Austin @ Lamar
• Oltorf/Lamar
• Ben White Blvd
• Slaughter/Menchaca
• Buda
• Kyle
• Bobcat Stadium
• San Marcos
• Centerpoint/35
• New Braunfels
• Bracken
• Loop 1604
• San Antonio Intl Airport @ Wetmore/410
• Quarry @ 281/Jones Maltsberger
• Olmos Park @ San Pedro/Olmos
• Midtown @ Culebra/Fredericksburg
• UTSA/Centro Plaza @ Commerce/Buena Vista

Port San Antonio Spur:
• Port San Antonio @ Frio/Malone
• SouthPark @ Zarzamora/35
• TAMUSA @ Jaguar Parkway

LoneStar/Brooks Spur:
• LoneStar @ Probandt
• Mission Reach @ Steves/Roosevelt/10
• Brooks @ Presa/SE Military
• Mission Espada @ 410

This set-up allows the system to function as 6 separate commuter rail lines:

• Georgetown-Austin
• Taylor-Austin
• Mid-region-Austin
• Mid-region-DT San Antonio
• Southwest San-DT San
• South San-DT San

Originally Posted by urbancore

Can’t imagine a rail service that would be an hour each way. It’s 80 miles away plus or minus.

That and you have to factor in the check in time/wait on a platform (15-30 min) in addition to the commute to the depot (15–60min each way) to make a real comparison to driving yourself.

Again, a commuter would only do a Aus-Sa route for school/work if they lived very close to the depot AND worked/attended school close to the opposite depot.

And realistically, how many people fit that situation?

Rich people living downtown, who work downtown in the opposite city? That’s who we are serving with this route? Really?

Who is the major user of this line?
What do they do?
Why are they riding it?
When would they ride it?
How much will they willingly pay?
Where are they coming from exactly?
Where are they going to exactly?
Do they require last mile transportation? If so, what does that look like?

How many cars would be taken off the road roughly and how does that translate to easing future traffic?

The express service is simply a cherry on top done with station bypass lanes at the rest of the other stations. The primary driver of this service needs to be the commuter rail potential, not the intercity express service. That’s where the riders will come from.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

A complete build out should look like this (bolded are express service stations):

...
Main Line:
• La Frontera @ McNeil/35
• Domain @ Braker/MoPac
...

By the time this could happen we'd probably want a Robinson Ranch station too.