Why is the U.S. wealthier than Europe? Give credit to its cities. (Report)

[R@ptor]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Modest tourist-class hotels, with tax, run around $200 USD a night

Simple breakfast (coffee & bread/sweets) is $30 for two.

I have stayed in hundreds! of hotels and the most I have ever paid for a hotel room per night was $170 at the Grand Canyon, because basically no hotel had any vacancies.

If you book ahead you can get pretty good deals anywhere on the planet. Even in excruciatingly expensive cities such as Tokyo or Sydney I had no problems finding a room in a good 3-star hotel for about €65 ($88) per night.

Also, I have yet to visit a city where it isn't possible to get a coffee and a croissant for €5 in the morning...and with the sole exceptions of Seoul and Dubai I have been to every major city in the developed world!

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

Even if you have just an average income in the Netherlands (and Scandinavia, Germany, UK, etc) it should be no problem for you to take an intercontinental trip every two years (or even each year depending on your priorities), there's nothing snotty about it, it's the reality of how we live here.

I'm very offended by you suggesting that my choice (which also happens to be the choice of many others around here) to spend a lot of money on travel somehow amounts to "entitlement". That money is not handed to me, I worked for it...

I was commenting on the notion you shared that "people with average incomes should be able to afford intercontinental travel, no question about it." The tone sounds entitled because not very long ago at all, average Europeans could not afford such luxuries -- and they were not able to travel like they do now. Now, a certain snotty "of course you should travel" attitude has grown among Europeans who now have the ability to do so, and people are looked down upon if they don't. Like I stated, be thankful for your situation -- that you are able "to spend a lot of money on travel".

As I said, if this is true for the average in Europe like you say, then you all have it pretty fucking good. As for being "very offended", I wasn't even talking about you, your choices, and how you pay for your travel, specifically... and I wouldn't give a crap if you were so "very offended" by my words even if I was. "Very offended"? Please.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

I was commenting on the notion you shared that "people with average incomes should be able to afford intercontinental travel, no question about it." The tone sounds entitled because not very long ago at all, average Europeans could not afford such luxuries -- and they were not able to travel like they do now. Now, a certain snotty "of course you should travel" attitude has grown among Europeans who now have the ability to do so, and people are looked down upon if they don't. Like I stated, be thankful for your situation -- that you are able "to spend a lot of money on travel".

As I said, if this is true for the average in Europe like you say, then you all have it pretty fucking good. As for being "very offended", I wasn't even talking about you, your choices, and how you pay for your travel, specifically... and I wouldn't give a crap if you were so "very offended" by my words even if I was. "Very offended"? Please.

Aside from the fact that I think you are reading that sentence wrong..., it sure sounded like you were commenting on me personally.

But even if you weren't, how would you know about "a certain attitute among Europeans" and that "people are looked down upon if they don't travel"? Everyone is different and I don't have the impression that what you state is the case at all. Sure, people are encouraged to "see the world and open your mind", that's a far cry from being looked down upon if you don't.

I do think there is a correlation between places that are internationally oriented and whos citizens travel a lot and how openminded and progressive a place is. Doesn't only go for Europe, but also big city USA...

As for entitlement, no shortage of that in the USA either. It's not us producing programs like My Sweet Sixteen, The Real Housewives, Kardashians or The Bachelor...no we have 20 different kinds of travel programs on tv (no joke)...

(that last paragraph is totally tongue in cheek btw, the US might have the worst in entertainment, it also has the best...just saying you also have a large demographic that is known (wrongly or not) for feeling entitled).

[FREKI]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Mike, a one week trip for two from the U.S. to Europe will cost minimum about $6,000 right now

How do you figure that amount?

A direct flight will be around $750 per person
A good hotel will be around $150-200 per night..
Food and experiences $150 per day..


That's around $3500 for a week in Paris/London/Berlin/Rome at a high 3 or 4 star hotel and an acceptable airliner with restaurant visits and transport for 2 people..

While it's certainly possible to spend more it's certainly also possible to spend less..

That's $33 a week per person over the cause of a year - even a person on minimums wage in the US should be able to put that aside if truly interested and a family making 100k should certainly have no problems..


All with the lust for traveling in teh west can travel - it's about how one spends one's money, not how much one makes..

[FREKI]

Originally Posted by JManc

Most people here cannot spend that kind of money on travel even if they earn a decent income. A year or so ago, I was making close to six figures and there was no way I could fork over that kind of cash on a vacation.

That sounds a tad strange to me... I've only passed 100k a few years of my life and I pay a lot more in taxes than I would in the US and I've never had any problems funding my trips.. and I don't spare expenses when I travel.. nor in daily life..

I'm not familiar with US income tax, but if we go by a 20-30% range of 100k there's still a lot left.. spending 1/10th or 2/10ths of that on travelling doesn't seem that bad - there's still plenty left to live for..

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by R@ptor

I have stayed in hundreds! of hotels and the most I have ever paid for a hotel room per night was $170 at the Grand Canyon, because basically no hotel had any vacancies.

If you book ahead you can get pretty good deals anywhere on the planet. Even in excruciatingly expensive cities such as Tokyo or Sydney I had no problems finding a room in a good 3-star hotel for about €65 ($88) per night.

Also, I have yet to visit a city where it isn't possible to get a coffee and a croissant for €5 in the morning...and with the sole exceptions of Seoul and Dubai I have been to every major city in the developed world!

Short of massive inconvenience (like buying food in supermarkets and sneaking it into places) none of these things are possible in major Northern European cities.

I have been to Tokyo (though not recently) and it seems many things are significantly cheaper than Paris.

There is no such thing as 5 euro breakfast in Paris. Not even standing, on the street. A pan du chocolat + juice runs about 10 euros.

There are no non-shared, private bathroom, 65 euro rooms in Paris. Not even in the rougher parts. They don't exist, anywhere.

A ham sandwich, juice and apple slices in the Louvre cafeteria presently cost about 25 euros. What other option exists?

You really expect visitors to hide food in their pockets or something? Or maybe leave the museum and wander the streets for cheaper food, then endure the massive security lines back into the museum?

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by FREKI

That's $33 a week per person over the cause of a year - even a person on minimums wage in the US should be able to put that aside if truly interested and a family making 100k should certainly have no problems..


All with the lust for traveling in teh west can travel - it's about how one spends one's money, not how much one makes..

False...a person on minimum wage can barely afford to pay the rent, much less put money aside for travel! I'm not sure what universe you're living in, but in this one the realities are much different from what you're describing. Again, Americans live at a much higher standard in their everyday lives from what I have seen and experienced. You may choose the route of international travel, but (generally speaking) Americans tend to choose the route of a more comfortable everyday life. In order to afford both - and many many Americans do - one must make much more $ than minimum wage.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by FREKI

How do you figure that amount?

A direct flight will be around $750 per person
A good hotel will be around $150-200 per night..
Food and experiences $150 per day.. ?

Please find me a direct flight from the U.S. to CDG for $750. Even from NYC. If you find it, I'll buy it, because I love Paris.

And most of the visitors aren't coming from NYC. What about the "average" American, flying from Kansas City or Milwaukee? Even two-connection flights run about $1,200.

Do you consider Best Western to be a "good" hotel? I certainly don't. Best Westerns in Paris are all over $200 a night. Most are over $200 a night before taxes.

I have a relatively high income. Many multiples of the U.S. median. Most years, I can't realistically afford more than one European trip a year, so it makes sense that most Americans aren't flying all over the world every year.

[dave8721]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Well there are things you could cut out right there if travel was important to you.
Why the need for two cars? Is your house big and if so, why the need for a huge house?
Why does your child have to go to private school? What is wrong with public?

Sending kids to private school is not typical middle class American life. And private school is probably the biggest waste of money.

Most Europeans and Canadians send their kids to public school.

Most Europeans don't live in Florida with its Bush-family-ravaged public education system. The size of my home is nothing outrageous and the size of my house has nothing to do with the cost. Its cheaper than many local 1 or 2 bedroom apartments but it is still relatively expensive because it is an inner ring older suburb which in the US is always more expensive than the McMansions of far flung suburbia. I myself do not need 2 cars of course. I need 1 car, my wife needs 1 car.
Of course these are all choices. I did the whole travel thing when I was younger and probably will again (one hopes) when I am older. There is a stage in life when one has young children when you accept that you are going to do without certain things (expensive international travel is by no means the thing I miss most from my younger responsibility free days).

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

Aside from the fact that I think you are reading that sentence wrong..., it sure sounded like you were commenting on me personally.

But even if you weren't, how would you know about "a certain attitute among Europeans" and that "people are looked down upon if they don't travel"? Everyone is different and I don't have the impression that what you state is the case at all. Sure, people are encouraged to "see the world and open your mind", that's a far cry from being looked down upon if you don't.

I do think there is a correlation between places that are internationally oriented and whos citizens travel a lot and how openminded and progressive a place is. Doesn't only go for Europe, but also big city USA...

As for entitlement, no shortage of that in the USA either. It's not us producing programs like My Sweet Sixteen, The Real Housewives, Kardashians or The Bachelor...no we have 20 different kinds of travel programs on tv (no joke)...

(that last paragraph is totally tongue in cheek btw, the US might have the worst in entertainment, it also has the best...just saying you also have a large demographic that is known (wrongly or not) for feeling entitled).

Well, I think I may have initially misunderstood the intent of what you were saying and then I think you may have taken my comment about that statement to mean I was aiming it at you and your choices personally. That's why I couldn't really understand how you would be very offended by my comment, when it was more a comment about a whole generational situation... and not that it is wrong in any way to spend one's money however they want to -- especially not on travel, which is a very good use of money in my opinion. From my own experience and from what a good number of European friends tell me it seems that a certain arrogance has developed within a generation based on how "worldy" one is, or how often one takes holiday. And I'm not saying you, SHiRO, display this. It's a generalization and I know that it is a concept not foreign in the US either.

The bold part above I completely agree with.

And hey, lay off the Kardashians -- those girls are down to Earth, well-adjusted ladies.

[R@ptor]

Originally Posted by Crawford

There is no such thing as 5 euro breakfast in Paris. Not even standing, on the street. A pan du chocolat + juice runs about 10 euros.

Maybe not in 1arr and 4arr, but there are a lot of boulangeries all over the city that also serve coffee in the morning and where you can get both for less than €5.

Originally Posted by Crawford

There are no non-shared, private bathroom, 65 euro rooms in Paris. Not even in the rougher parts. They don't exist, anywhere.

Of course they exist. There are plenty of those in 19arr and 20arr. They just aren't listed in Hotels.com, Expedia and other similar booking sites.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by TarHeelJ

False...a person on minimum wage can barely afford to pay the rent, much less put money aside for travel! I'm not sure what universe you're living in, but in this one the realities are much different from what you're describing. Again, Americans live at a much higher standard in their everyday lives from what I have seen and experienced. You may choose the route of international travel, but (generally speaking) Americans tend to choose the route of a more comfortable everyday life. In order to afford both - and many many Americans do - one must make much more $ than minimum wage.

Which is is? "Americans live a more comfortable everyday life"? Or "Americans on minimum wage can barely affort to pay rent"?

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by dave8721

Most Europeans don't live in Florida with its Bush-family-ravaged public education system. The size of my home is nothing outrageous and the size of my house has nothing to do with the cost. Its cheaper than many local 1 or 2 bedroom apartments but it is still relatively expensive because it is an inner ring older suburb which in the US is always more expensive than the McMansions of far flung suburbia. I myself do not need 2 cars of course. I need 1 car, my wife needs 1 car.
Of course these are all choices. I did the whole travel thing when I was younger and probably will again (one hopes) when I am older. There is a stage in life when one has young children when you accept that you are going to do without certain things (expensive international travel is by no means the thing I miss most from my younger responsibility free days).

Totally understandable and not much different from how it goes here. For Europeans though it's not more expensive to fly intercontinental versus going on a family vacation to Spain or Greece. There are cheaper options such as an all inclusive resort in Turkey, but it takes a certain type of person to enjoy such a vacation. At this point, it's more a question about taking your kids on a 12 hour flight or a 2 hour flight, instead of the cost being the decisive factor. Thailand is often times cheaper for a family of four than Spain or Greece and surprisingly child friendly.

My brother just had a kid and instead of their usual European roadtrip summer vacation, they opted for a Mediterranean cruise come August (they've been overseas multiple times though). My other friend who has a kid still goes to Curaçao every christmas and my friend and mentor who has 3 kids takes them to Thailand, Malaysia or Indonesia every summer for 4 weeks since their birth. His wives takes them and he joins them for 2 weeks, often with friends who have kids of themselves. It can be done, but if I were American I'd probably also take my family mostly on domestic vacations because it is a lot cheaper and easier. Dragging your kids halfway around the world has its merits, as in making a conscious effort to make them into "world citizens" (my mentor does it partly for that reason), but I understand the hassle that comes with that.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

Well, I think I may have initially misunderstood the intent of what you were saying and then I think you may have taken my comment about that statement to mean I was aiming it at you and your choices personally. That's why I couldn't really understand how you would be very offended by my comment, when it was more a comment about a whole generational situation... and not that it is wrong in any way to spend one's money however they want to -- especially not on travel, which is a very good use of money in my opinion. From my own experience and from what a good number of European friends tell me it seems that a certain arrogance has developed within a generation based on how "worldy" one is, or how often one takes holiday. And I'm not saying you, SHiRO, display this. It's a generalization and I know that it is a concept not foreign in the US either.

The bold part above I completely agree with.

And hey, lay off the Kardashians -- those girls are down to Earth, well-adjusted ladies.

No worries. I was only "forum offended", not really offended.

Don't know about the arrogance thing. The babyboomer generation has their own issues when it comes to increasing wealth and what to expect from life.
("right to retire at 65" is an issue here that they take for granted and our generation does not).
Their rise in standard of living vs their parents' was more spectacular than ours. A generation before that lived through WW2 so that's not really comparable.

I remember flying to Mallorca and the Canary Islands (which are technically not in Europe, so "intercontinental" ) with my parents when I was a kid. Flying and vacationing definately are not something new for my generation, although the destinations have become more exotic.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Short of massive inconvenience (like buying food in supermarkets and sneaking it into places) none of these things are possible in major Northern European cities.

I have been to Tokyo (though not recently) and it seems many things are significantly cheaper than Paris.

There is no such thing as 5 euro breakfast in Paris. Not even standing, on the street. A pan du chocolat + juice runs about 10 euros.

A ham sandwich, juice and apple slices in the Louvre cafeteria presently cost about 25 euros. What other option exists?

You really expect visitors to hide food in their pockets or something? Or maybe leave the museum and wander the streets for cheaper food, then endure the massive security lines back into the museum?

Originally Posted by R@ptor

Maybe not in 1arr and 4arr, but there are a lot of boulangeries all over the city that also serve coffee in the morning and where you can get both for less than €5.

Indeed. Just like NYC has the deli, Paris has its boulanger, or ethnic food store or even some (jewish) delis of its own. No shortage of Starbucks and that kind of crap in European (tourist) cities either. An under 5 euro breakfast is totally doable. Crawford, just you talking about eating at the Louvre says a lot. What seasoned traveller does that? I guess you go for tapas and drinks at the Ramblas as well? Just walk 3 blocks and you have better and cheaper...

That said, food is a lot more expensive in Europe than in the US and I totally understand Europe being very expensive for Americans. The world is much wider though and especially Asia and South America (especially 5 years ago) is dirt cheap. Find a $1000 flight and you can live like a king there for <$50 a day if you know where to look.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by TarHeelJ

Again, Americans live at a much higher standard in their everyday lives from what I have seen and experienced. You may choose the route of international travel, but (generally speaking) Americans tend to choose the route of a more comfortable everyday life. In order to afford both - and many many Americans do - one must make much more $ than minimum wage.

I think this is where most people disagree. How do American's live to a higher standard in their everyday life?
Because American's have 3,000 sq foot houses where they only use two rooms anyway?

I was just in Italy and they live just like we do here. Sure they live in condos instead of single family homes. But their condos are huge and the size of houses here. I fail to see how they don't live well. In fact in many ways they live better.

The fact is Americans don't live any better than anyone else in the developed western world. And in fact, Americans may live worse off, because life is not about a big house.

And this is why we are having this entire debate, because Americans went on about how they have the best living conditions in the world and are the wealthiest. But then they have no money to travel or to shop in nice stores.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by dave8721

Most Europeans don't live in Florida with its Bush-family-ravaged public education system. The size of my home is nothing outrageous and the size of my house has nothing to do with the cost. Its cheaper than many local 1 or 2 bedroom apartments but it is still relatively expensive because it is an inner ring older suburb which in the US is always more expensive than the McMansions of far flung suburbia. I myself do not need 2 cars of course. I need 1 car, my wife needs 1 car.
Of course these are all choices. I did the whole travel thing when I was younger and probably will again (one hopes) when I am older. There is a stage in life when one has young children when you accept that you are going to do without certain things (expensive international travel is by no means the thing I miss most from my younger responsibility free days).

Totally understandable to not take huge vacations with young children.

As for the school issue, this highlights a huge issue with the USA. The USA is not maintaining its public services to a high degree, and that really puts a big question on if the USA actually offers a good quality of life.
As for the car issue this again points to the USA's inability to provide adequate public services, like public transit.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

Crawford, just you talking about eating at the Louvre says a lot. What seasoned traveller does that?

This, I think, speaks to the significant differences in my travel preferences and your travel preferences, and probably explains our disagreement.

If you're visiting the Louvre, I don't pop in for an hour and just run to the Mona Lisa, like the sheep on the visiting tour buses from China or wherever. I need pretty much the whole day to experience even a small portion of the collection. Otherwise, what's the point of visiting?

Knowing this, there is no alternative to eating in the cafeteria. You can't leave the Louvre, because the security line (to get back in) runs at least one hour. And, no, I'm not gonna just go hungry all day and wait till we leave to save a few euros.

The whole point of a vacation (at least to me) is to have maximum relaxation and enjoyment. This means that I'm going to eat where I want, when I want. It means I'm going to stay in a good neighborhood, at a nice hotel. It means I'm going to visit all the places I want to visit, pay for the audioguides, pay for the mementos. Travel is all about experiences, not some save-a-thon.

I'm not 20 anymore, and have no desire to stay in some hostel in Paris suburbs, or to eat nothing but Quickburger. I want to eat good French food, in nice bistros. I want to bring back nice macaroons and some art books.

If I have to travel on the cheap, I prefer to stay home and relax. I live 30 minutes from the ocean, and can relax there. Cheap international travel is stressful and uncomfortable past college age, IMO.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

As for the school issue, this highlights a huge issue with the USA. The USA is not maintaining its public services to a high degree, and that really puts a big question on if the USA actually offers a good quality of life.

That's more of a Florida issue than a U.S. issue.

Florida is infamous for bad public schools. If you go to an average public school in New York, or Michigan, or wherever (pretty much anywhere not in certain low-tax Southern states) the public schools are good.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by Crawford

This, I think, speaks to the significant differences in my travel preferences and your travel preferences, and probably explains our disagreement.

If you're visiting the Louvre, I don't pop in for an hour and just run to the Mona Lisa, like the sheep on the visiting tour buses from China or wherever. I need pretty much the whole day to experience even a small portion of the collection. Otherwise, what's the point of visiting?

Knowing this, there is no alternative to eating in the cafeteria. You can't leave the Louvre, because the security line (to get back in) runs at least one hour. And, no, I'm not gonna just go hungry all day and wait till we leave to save a few euros.

The whole point of a vacation (at least to me) is to have maximum relaxation and enjoyment. This means that I'm going to eat where I want, when I want. It means I'm going to stay in a good neighborhood, at a nice hotel. It means I'm going to visit all the places I want to visit, pay for the audioguides, pay for the mementos. Travel is all about experiences, not some save-a-thon.

I'm not 20 anymore, and have no desire to stay in some hostel in Paris suburbs, or to eat nothing but Quickburger. I want to eat good French food, in nice bistros. I want to bring back nice macaroons and some art books.

If I have to travel on the cheap, I prefer to stay home and relax. I live 30 minutes from the ocean, and can relax there. Cheap international travel is stressful and uncomfortable past college age, IMO.

Got it. You want to go to expensive cities, do expensive things, eat expensive and then complain it's all so expensive.

btw I'm not talking about staying in hostels and eating burgers. There is a middle ground which you seem to be ignoring. You can even visit the Louvre and have an expensive meal or two and still not have an overall expensive trip.