GTA Transit Thread

[Nick.]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

I was out with a friend last night and the Transit City debate came up. This friend is your average citizen who does not worry about these things or know much about transit, etc. She just uses it.

Anyway she was like "I know what LRT is". And she went on to say it is like the LRT system she used in Manila.

That was her vision of LRT.

She she found out Transit City was going to operate in the median of the road, have stops every 500 meters, and not full priority over cars, she did not like the idea.

There really is a misunderstanding on what LRT means to Toronto.

fly away troll

[Andrewjm3D]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

There really is a misunderstanding on what LRT means to Toronto.

As you've proven in many of your posts.

[dennis1]

miketoronto wants this.

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archive...yyap/ttcV5.png


But guarantee it would cost at least 35 billion and road tolls and other taxes would for sure happen. Just the Sheppard line to Albion would cost around 2 billion .

[Tony]

^ wouldn't we all.

mike's problem is his disconnect from reality. $ is not an excuse, it's a fact of life.

nick: Mike is no troll. He's just passionate.

[dennis1]

Originally Posted by Tony

^ wouldn't we all.

mike's problem is his disconnect from reality. $ is not an excuse, it's a fact of life.

nick: Mike is no troll. He's just passionate.

mike isn't a troll. nick please. Sometimes the internet is unbareable...

I would agree except fot the fact if Toronto was willing to pay a gas tax and a road tolls that could be paid for before the shovels hit the ground.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by dennis1

miketoronto wants this.

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archive...yyap/ttcV5.png


But guarantee it would cost at least 35 billion and road tolls and other taxes would for sure happen. Just the Sheppard line to Albion would cost around 2 billion .

It's... beautiful...

Yes, it would cost a fortune, but I'm sure if you tendered contracts to the private sector instead of just handing it off to the TTC (and by not paying "fair union wage") you could probably shave about $4-5 billion off that pricetag. Part of the problem is allowing the TTC to handle construction. There is no reason why the Eglinton-Scarberia LRT should be one of the most expensive transit projects in human history. If they were handling the Sheppard line extensions, there would be no way in hell for you to get it to Albion for $2 billion.

Apparently, the city has appointed an "expert" panel to study what should be done with the Sheppard subway. I hope to god that stupid LRT doesn't come back... aside from wrecking Agincourt, we don't need to spend almost $1 billion for marginal service improvement and another transfer point.

[dennis1]

Originally Posted by Wharn

It's... beautiful...

Yes, it would cost a fortune, but I'm sure if you tendered contracts to the private sector instead of just handing it off to the TTC (and by not paying "fair union wage") you could probably shave about $4-5 billion off that pricetag. Part of the problem is allowing the TTC to handle construction. There is no reason why the Eglinton-Scarberia LRT should be one of the most expensive transit projects in human history. If they were handling the Sheppard line extensions, there would be no way in hell for you to get it to Albion for $2 billion.

Apparently, the city has appointed an "expert" panel to study what should be done with the Sheppard subway. I hope to god that stupid LRT doesn't come back... aside from wrecking Agincourt, we don't need to spend almost $1 billion for marginal service improvement and another transfer point.

Sheppard will be subway, probably road tolls along with it. A PPP should work, but this is Toronto. It would screw up fast.

[dennis1]

Here is the alternate version.

[Andrewjm3D]

I'd also like a flying horse, but hey that's just not in the cards.

Word on the street is the dreaded "Ford Nation" is planning on crashing Councillor Glenn De Baeremaeker's Annual Valentine Skating Party because he stood up for Rapid Transit for Toronto.

This is supposed to be a fun family event. It's on Sunday Feb 12th from 2:30 pm - 5:00pm at the Centennial Recreation Centre - 1967 Ellesmere Road (on the south side, west of Markham Rd...


Talk about a sore loser. I plan on bringing my skates and stick and will take pleasure body checking the Fords into the boards.

[miketoronto]

That maps is totally what we need. The only thing is, who says it needs to be all subways?

There is room there for using elevated (skytrain) trains in sections.

And as for cost, why does it need to cost so much? My friend and I were talking about this the other day, and costs to build rapid transit in Toronto are out of whack. Using Skytrain technology, Vancouver built about 25 km of rapid transit, including tunnel sections, for the same cost it would take Toronto to build 6 km of rapid transit.

And you can't blame union workers or a living wage on this. European cities also complete rapid transit projects for less money, yet have even stronger work standards and wage controls.

Originally Posted by dennis1

miketoronto wants this.

But guarantee it would cost at least 35 billion and road tolls and other taxes would for sure happen. Just the Sheppard line to Albion would cost around 2 billion .

[miketoronto]

Some stats from York Region on the Yonge subway extension.
Residents want fully grade separated transit, and the ridership numbers prove this.

http://www.vivanext.com/assets/files...umOne_4_20.pdf

Potential daily ridership of 165,000.

The Yonge Subway extension would attract over 80,000 new transit riders
daily.

-The demand for riders north of Finch on the Yonge line will be in excess of
20,000 peak hour riders.

-The increase in transit ridership from the Yonge Subway extension
would reduce road congestion and air pollution to a greater extent than
any other transportation investment being considered by Metrolinx.

-research and ridership statistics show that commuters
are enthusiastic about switching mode if convenient rapid transit is available. The total potential ridership, taking a collective 27 million trips annually, would result in a massive reduction in car travel and concomitant greenhouse gas emissions.

----------------------------------------------------


-LRT proponents and transit planners are stating you need at least 30,000 passenger an hour to justify subway service.
However even the overcrowed Yonge line does not mean this target. The Yonge line carries 26,000 passengers an hour.

[dennis1]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

That maps is totally what we need. The only thing is, who says it needs to be all subways?

There is room there for using elevated (skytrain) trains in sections.

And as for cost, why does it need to cost so much? My friend and I were talking about this the other day, and costs to build rapid transit in Toronto are out of whack. Using Skytrain technology, Vancouver built about 25 km of rapid transit, including tunnel sections, for the same cost it would take Toronto to build 6 km of rapid transit.

And you can't blame union workers or a living wage on this. European cities also complete rapid transit projects for less money, yet have even stronger work standards and wage controls.

I honestly don't know why. Look at The Underground LRT, now make that a full subway to Highway 2A and Pearson, 15 billion? We need to bring costs down. Also, Vancouver is very small. Toronto is acutally HUGE, the land is massive here.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by dennis1

I honestly don't know why. Look at The Underground LRT, now make that a full subway to Highway 2A and Pearson, 15 billion? We need to bring costs down. Also, Vancouver is very small. Toronto is acutally HUGE, the land is massive here.

Vancouver is smaller than Toronto both in terms of population and physical size... so what? That doesn't change the fact that they can build true grade-separated rapid transit for the price of our at-grade express streetcars. Also, what is "the land is massive here" supposed to mean? You don't seriously belive the surface area of the city has anything to do with the per-kilometre cost of transit, do you?

Originally Posted by miketoronto

And you can't blame union workers or a living wage on this. European cities also complete rapid transit projects for less money, yet have even stronger work standards and wage controls.

Of course I can blame them. European cities get this done for less money because they have way more experience building rapid transit lines, and as a result they're more efficient, which justifies the high wages. The TTC cannot accomplish the same level of efficiency, takes forever to finish project and still compensates workers with a high wage. Which is ridiculous; it's like paying an articling student the same hourly rate as a lawyer with 30+ years of experience. Something has to give: either the TTC picks up its act, or wages go down.

Originally Posted by dennis1

Here is the alternate version.

Looks good but... a few problems. First of all, why does the DRL not run through Union station? What the hell is the point if you're not going to put it through the central hub? And also, the Sheppard line needs to go to Downsview. Change those two things and this would be the transit plan sent from heaven.

[haljackey]

I for one think the Shepard Subway should be extended. You've already spent all kinds of money making this 'stubway' and you want to extend it with LRT? The line was designed with extensions in mind and it is inefficient and a waste of potential to have people transfer off the trains and onto LRT.

If the Corsstown Line is completely underground (which I doubt will be due to the recent vote) then it should just become a subway line or designed for a quick conversion from LRT to RT so it can be retrofitted at a later date.

No one will go for road tolls. If you want funding, balance the budgets! Get the Province to get rid of niceties like the Catholic School System and use that money elsewhere on projects like transit in municipalities.

[sober2ndthought]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Calgary does LRT right, and the majority of the LRT system is in rights of ways to the side or behind roads. Only a small section is in the middle of the road.
And this brings up the point. Modern LRT as it was planned when these systems started in the 70's, was not designed to go down the middle of roads.

LRT is supposed to use old or new railroad rights of ways, tunnels in sections, above ground sections, etc. But the majority of LRT that has been a success does not operate down the middle of roads for any great length.

MikeToronto, don't make up facts to support your arguments. Most of Calgary's LRT runs along roadways either in the median or off to one side.

Only the South Line runs along a railway Rights of Way. That is only about a quarter of the system. The NE Line runs down the median of Memorial Drive and 36th Avenue. NW line snakes along various streets, eventually finishing off along Crowchild Trial and the new West Line runs along 17th Avenue and Bow Trial.

Before you say railway rights of way make sense, go look at Calgary. The NE and NW lines have spawned considerable Transit Oriented Development, while the South Line has failed to see similar success. Why because no one wants to live next to a CP Rail Line.

See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c6MU1HwENs (Time Lapse from the NW Line to the South Line)

Edmonton's LRT North Line runs entirely along a railway right of way, but the new extensions to the south all run along city streets. Again no one wants to live next to a Rail Line so to build TOD the city moved the line next to city streets.

See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVya5wnJpVg (Entire System)

As for the slow section on the Portland Max Train, that is a highly developed area. Calgary's LRT slows down in similar areas as well. The Area between SAIT and Lions Park the train slows down quite considerably as it does in Sunnyside and Downtown.

I don't have a video to show it, but as I have said before I grew up in Calgary, I know the CTrain well.

The proposed street level section of the Eglinton LRT will probably operate in an suburban environment similar to the NE Section of Calgary LRT. Both were built around the same time. I am sure it will be able to hold a decent speed of between 20-30 KM an hour. If they give it proper signal priority it will be closer to 30 if they don't then closer to 20.

What you should be fighting for isn't aesthetics or rights of ways but rather signal priority. If the LRT has to stop at every stop light then it is pointless and it will be no different than the St. Clair ROW. But if it can get the kind of signal priority that the LRT in Seattle, Edmonton, Calgary, and Portland have then it will be a good system.

Edit:

I just noticed your quote "Newer" South Line. Lets see:

South Line Opened: May 25, 1981
Latest Extension: June 28, 2004

Northeast Line Opened: April 27, 1985
Latest Extension: December 17, 2007

Northwest Line Opened: September 7, 1987
Latest Extension: June 15, 2009

Wikipedia such a wonderful tool eh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-Train

[dennis1]

Originally Posted by Wharn

Vancouver is smaller than Toronto both in terms of population and physical size... so what? That doesn't change the fact that they can build true grade-separated rapid transit for the price of our at-grade express streetcars. Also, what is "the land is massive here" supposed to mean? You don't seriously belive the surface area of the city has anything to do with the per-kilometre cost of transit, do you?

No Just making the point that for some unknown reasons the transit is expensive.

Of course I can blame them. European cities get this done for less money because they have way more experience building rapid transit lines, and as a result they're more efficient, which justifies the high wages. The TTC cannot accomplish the same level of efficiency, takes forever to finish project and still compensates workers with a high wage. Which is ridiculous; it's like paying an articling student the same hourly rate as a lawyer with 30+ years of experience. Something has to give: either the TTC picks up its act, or wages go down.



Looks good but... a few problems. First of all, why does the DRL not run through Union station? What the hell is the point if you're not going to put it through the central hub? And also, the Sheppard line needs to go to Downsview. Change those two things and this would be the transit plan sent from heaven.

There is filled in stations at Queen and Osgoode. Queen is closer to downtown. If the DRL is at union, then you have to move the Union streetcars. Union is closer to the lake. The Sheppard line should go across the Humber to Humber College, at least ensuring that the entire line does not lose as much money. Finch West-Sheppard would create and acutally serviceable route. Downsivew to STC is sitll a stub.

[dennis1]

Even if both maps are done, something still has to be done for East Scarborough.

[sober2ndthought]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

This is what LRT is supposed to be built like.
http://www.westlrt.ca/contentabout/route_animation.cfm

That video right there shows most of the LRT running along a roadway, you really need to check your facts.

In fact, what is the difference between that video and this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoecnwRr1oA

[DrNest]

What's not deniable is that Toronto desperately needs a vastly improved transit system, and that sadly, endless council debates and commissions investigating have delayed the construction of many miles of subway, forcing up costs per mile as the years go by.

Searching the internet I've found many proposed maps of what would give Toronto a great subway system. This page has a good collation of various ideas, admitedly many are pure fantasy and would be too prohibitive in cost to build now. But I like this one if money was not prohibitive.

[nname]

Originally Posted by sober2ndthought

That video right there shows most of the LRT running along a roadway, you really need to check your facts.

In fact, what is the difference between that video and this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoecnwRr1oA

Count the number of at-grade crossings. I see only 4 outside Downtown from the Calgary one - one is freeway off-ramp, and another is side street with station access.

Originally Posted by dennis1

Also, Vancouver is very small. Toronto is acutally HUGE, the land is massive here.

Not if you compare the service area between TTC and TransLink:

http://buzzer.translink.ca/index.php...-service-area/