Why is the U.S. wealthier than Europe? Give credit to its cities. (Report)

[Jelly Roll]

Originally Posted by FREKI

First of all no 2011 figures have been officially released..

Second the 2010 figure was: 462.097 DKK ( that would be $81.315 )


http://www.dst.dk/da/Statistik/statistikbanken.aspx

Maybe if you looked at real figures instead of imaginary ones you could see that a McDonalds workers is NOT earning more..

The average hourly wage here in 2010 was 295,65 DKK ( $52,02 ) and that is WAY more than McDonalds employee will make.. they typically range around 130-160 DKK ( $23-28 ) per hour so only about half the national average..

Even using the high side of $28 an hour that only gives you $54,000 a year assuming you are getting paid for 37 hours a week and you get paid for the full 52 weeks in a year. The low side puts you at $45,000 a year. That means that they are making about 60-65% of the average. This seems completely reasonable to me.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by brickell

Like many other states (northern included) Florida has good schools and bad. It's more a urban/suburban dichotomy than north/south or high tax/low tax.

In some ways, yes, but overall, Florida's public education system is pathetic considering it is one of our largest states. Same goes for Texas.

[brickell]

I'll grant you that, but I have my doubts that the average Michigan or Pennsylvania suburban high school is measurably any better than an average suburban Florida school. You can find good schools in Florida, but you have to go to where they are (unfortunately). It's the rural and inner city schools where Florida really drops the ball, but are northern cities really much better?

[novawolverine]

I think they are better in some of the northern states. I think schools are a lot bigger in Florida and managed from a further jurisdiction than in some northern states. It's hard sometimes to do an apples to apples comparison, but I'd be willing to bet that states with a history of strong public schools are probably better off even if they are in decline than some places in the South where public schools were never anything special to begin with.

[kevike]

Originally Posted by bricky

A quick search of wikipedia shows median income in 2011 across countries. America is 2nd, after Luxembourg.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income

This is adjusted for PPP (price differences, in a world where the US is relatively cheap right now). Original source is OECD.

NOT RELEVANT! PAY NO ATTENTION TO THIS! USA ONLY HAS BILLIONAIRES AND POOR PEOPLE!

[FREKI]

Originally Posted by Jelly Roll

Even using the high side of $28 an hour that only gives you $54,000 a year assuming you are getting paid for 37 hours a week and you get paid for the full 52 weeks in a year. The low side puts you at $45,000 a year. That means that they are making about 60-65% of the average. This seems completely reasonable to me.

Well you need to keep in mind that restaurants generally are open in the eveninga nd nights so there's evening and nights fees, and weekends fees etc on top of the base wage.. ( typically after 17 you get an extra 25-30 DKK/h = ~$4-5 ) so that's another ~$10.000 and doing weekends you typically get an extra 50 DKK/h = ~$9 ) so that's roughly another ~$3700 if the person works every other weekend..


You also earn up time off when working evenings and nights and if you don't take them off they are also paid out, holidays pays 200%.. Overtime is 50-100% on top plus time off

And then there's the private work pension on top that typically ranges from 12 to 15% of the workers income.. and probable some Yule bonus etc..

So it all adds up...

[Jelly Roll]

Originally Posted by FREKI

Well you need to keep in mind that restaurants generally are open in the eveninga nd nights so there's evening and nights fees, and weekends fees etc on top of the base wage.. ( typically after 17 you get an extra 25-30 DKK/h = ~$4-5 ) so that's another ~$10.000 and doing weekends you typically get an extra 50 DKK/h = ~$9 ) so that's roughly another ~$3700 if the person works every other weekend..


You also earn up time off when working evenings and nights and if you don't take them off they are also paid out, holidays pays 200%.. Overtime is 50-100% on top plus time off

And then there's the private work pension on top that typically ranges from 12 to 15% of the workers income.. and probable some Yule bonus etc..

So it all adds up...

That is awesome for the workers. I think for most Americans it is just such a foreign way of operating as compared to how things are done here it is hard for many to comprehend.

[Acajack]

On travel, I know it is a question of money and vacation time for some but I do think that a lot of people just aren't that interested in travelling abroad. And it is no sin to not be interested - you can be interested in lots of other things.

I say this as an avowed travel-holic who has been to about 40 countries and whose kids are under the age of 10 and have been to three continents already (we have no relatives on continents other than our home one).

So I do not really care if others have no interest in travel. Makes for fewer people in front of me in the lineup for the llama rides at Macchu Picchu!

[Trantor]

Originally Posted by Chicago103

"All told, some 80 percent of Americans live in large cities, versus just 58 percent of Western Europeans. "

if that meant anything, Brazil would be ultra rich. But then, the concept of urban area in Brazil, Europe and the US might be different.

[Trantor]

Originally Posted by brickell

By the way, I found this - http://www.gfkinsights4u.com/interna...countries.html. It's from 2010 and by who knows who. If you find something better, post it.

But American vacation is actually on par with the Germans and French. The Dutch and Swedes (and probably Danish) are the outliers. And Americans are much more likely than European countries to take vacations over $2,472.

Interesting bits from the article

Most Brazilians (90%) also do not travel abroad

but the ones who do spend in average $5400 dollars per person (in the US, the promised land of cheap goods)


japanese follow brazilians as the ones who spend the most in the US: $4300 per person. $1000 less than brazilians... but then, electronics are cheap in Japan.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by Trantor

if that meant anything, Brazil would be ultra rich. But then, the concept of urban area in Brazil, Europe and the US might be different.

Very different situation though. Most Brazilian cities are not major centers of wealth creation and global commerce in comparison to American cities.

[Trantor]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

Very different situation though. Most Brazilian cities are not major centers of wealth creation and global commerce in comparison to American cities.

so... is the US wealthier than europe because its cities are major centers of wealth creation and global commerce, or are US cities major centers of wealth creation and global commerce because the US is very wealthy?

after all, is the US wealthier than Europe because its more urban or because its cities are major centers of wealth creation and global commerce?

the article implies cause and effect wrongly.

[Misterfreeman87]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Please find me a direct flight from the U.S. to CDG for $750. Even from NYC. If you find it, I'll buy it, because I love Paris.

There you go, that was just the first offer I could find, a direct flight (incl. return) New York to Paris with XL Airways France for 542€ = 704$

https://www.fluege.de/flight/itinera...ca7aa90d36/SAB

I bet with some more research you could find flights even cheaper (not direct though)

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Misterfreeman87

There you go, that was just the first offer I could find, a direct flight (incl. return) New York to Paris with XL Airways France for 542€ = 704$

https://www.fluege.de/flight/itinera...ca7aa90d36/SAB

I bet with some more research you could find flights even cheaper (not direct though)

No, this is before taxes. And it's unavailable from the U.S. anyways. This is through a European charter, (which usually require specific originating location in this case, CDG).

The cheapest commercial non stop between NYC and CDG over the next month is presently $1277. The cheapest one-stop is $1160 (and on an airline I wouldn't take).

So, given that a household typically consists of 2-3 persons, and given than median family income is 50k, it would cost minimum $2,500 for a couple to get anywhere on the continent from the cheapest possible U.S. origination.

That's a lot of money for the average Joe, which is why average Americans don't typically fly to Europe, and why typical Europeans don't typically fly overseas either, notwithstanding the SSP anecdotes about wealthy European McDonalds workers flying to Laos.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Misterfreeman87

There you go, that was just the first offer I could find, a direct flight (incl. return) New York to Paris with XL Airways France for 542€ = 704$

https://www.fluege.de/flight/itinera...ca7aa90d36/SAB

I bet with some more research you could find flights even cheaper (not direct though)

Right, from New York. The biggest city, and one of the closest to Europe. For the 280 million of us who don't live in New York, let's try another one.

From Denver (same link you're using), except I pushed your dates back a few weeks (to be fair), I get € 1.151,63.

Using Kayak, I can find $1,428. Which is about right, that's about what I expect to pay for a summer flight these days. Might be able to shave a couple hundred dollars watching fares, especially if you have some flexibility to leave mid-week. But generally, that's what I'd have to pay. And Denver is a big airport and a relatively cheap city to fly out of, despite the distance.

Same flight from Cincinnati (random choice of big city) is just over $1,600 this year. San Diego, $1,567.

I don't know... maybe I'm just cheap, or poor... but $3-grand in airfare for two people is a big deal in my mind. I can do a lot with $3k. That's three nice TVs.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by Trantor

so... is the US wealthier than europe because its cities are major centers of wealth creation and global commerce, or are US cities major centers of wealth creation and global commerce because the US is very wealthy?

after all, is the US wealthier than Europe because its more urban or because its cities are major centers of wealth creation and global commerce?

the article implies cause and effect wrongly.

Perhaps you haven't read the whole thread, but we already determined that the US is not more urban than Europe. I find this to be logical really (history, space, etc) and thought it was basic knowledge for the urban lover.

The debate about which is wealthier is still going but since, according to Americans themselves, intercontinental travel is not affordable for average Americans and it is for Western Europeans I'm leaning towards that wealth is at least better distributed in WE.

[10023]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

The debate about which is wealthier is still going but since, according to Americans themselves, intercontinental travel is not affordable for average Americans and it is for western Europeans I'm leaning towards that wealth is at least better distributed in WE.

I don't know the details, but this could have to do with things like airline regulations and departure taxes too. The flights could simply be more expensive here, and destinations farther away given geography.

It's also a question of what people spend their money on.

[Misterfreeman87]

Originally Posted by Crawford

No, this is before taxes. And it's unavailable from the U.S. anyways. This is through a European charter, (which usually require specific originating location in this case, CDG).

Its including taxes

Another offer, no direct fly though, 698$
http://www.expedia.com/Details?actio...-e67c92c84624&

I think this should be avaivable for americans.

ALso Aer Lingus offers flights for 600€, if you are looking for a regular flight (no charter airline)
https://www.ebookers.de/book/bookingpath?execution=e1s1

[10023]

^ That's in October... not when most people can take vacation. And probably based on flexible rather than specific dates, which is not how most non-students can travel.

Originally Posted by Crawford

No, this is before taxes. And it's unavailable from the U.S. anyways. This is through a European charter, (which usually require specific originating location in this case, CDG).

The cheapest commercial non stop between NYC and CDG over the next month is presently $1277. The cheapest one-stop is $1160 (and on an airline I wouldn't take).

This sounds about right.

I bought two tickets to Paris last month for July... 3 full months in advance... and they were $1,490 each in coach on Air France. There were tickets available for a couple hundred less but I didn't want to fly on some AA or United codeshare.

[brickell]

Originally Posted by Trantor

but the ones who do spend in average $5400 dollars per person (in the US, the promised land of cheap goods)

And thank god. I used to work at on I-Drive in Orlando. I don't know what the Brazilians love so much about that area, but without them, I'm sure half of it would be shuttered.

And now in Miami they compete with the Argentinians tourist. Every time I go to a Best Buy, there's some bus full of tourist loading up on laptops and Ipads.