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View Poll Results: Which transbay tower design scheme do you like best?
#1 Richard Rogers 40 8.05%
#2 Cesar Pelli 99 19.92%
#3 SOM 358 72.03%
Voters: 497. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1901  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2008, 4:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut gallery View Post
This is an interesting quote from the temporary terminal site I posted above:



Can someone smarter than me figure out approximate size (floors and height -- I know there is a new height limit, but they have a specific idea here; does it maximize the zoning?) of the building that would have 732 units in the space made available after the temporary terminal is no longer needed? Also, I love the sound of "widened sidewalks, cafes, markets" along Folsom. Right now, it feels sort of like walking along a freeway.
Well, I don't know about "smarter," but according to this map (see below) the site may be zoned for "50/85/450TB (feet), OS (open space), and 50/85/165TB (feet)." We could see a highrise of 45, and midrise of 16 stories, give or take a few floors, on the block surrounded by Howard, Main, Beale and Folsom Streets someday.

From http://www.sfgov.org/site/uploadedfi...n_PART_2a.pdf:



Here is another plan view of the entire Transabay and Rincon Hill areas. The open space is in the center of the block. Folsom Street is full of trees. With "Retail along Folson St.," will this be a new shopping street we were discussing potential sites for in another thread? Also note that no tower is shown at the site where the Californian was once planned.

From http://www.sfgov.org/site/uploadedfi...on_PART_1.pdf:
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  #1902  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2008, 5:41 PM
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Okay, let me sort of correct myself. Folsom Street will not be closed to traffic, but will be the new neighborhood's "main street" with retail.

From http://www.sfgov.org/site/uploadedfi...on_PART_3.pdf:


(sorry for the different sized images - I forgot my original zoom settings)
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  #1903  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2008, 8:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFView View Post
Well, I don't know about "smarter," but according to this map (see below) the site may be zoned for "50/85/450TB (feet), OS (open space), and 50/85/165TB (feet)." We could see a highrise of 45, and midrise of 16 stories, give or take a few floors, on the block surrounded by Howard, Main, Beale and Folsom Streets someday.
Thanks. I never noticed that they had split it into two buildings with the open space mid-block. I like having the taller tower on Howard, which is shaping up to be another interesting canyon.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SFView View Post
Also note that no tower is shown at the site where the Californian was once planned.
That is interesting. But they do show 45 Lansing and it seems to extend to the corner of Harrison and First, replacing the gas station. Creative license or a peak into the future?
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  #1904  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2008, 9:01 PM
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I think the primary purpose is the show the guts of the plan of that which is more definite. It is probably better to leave out towers that are still yet to be determined.
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  #1905  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2008, 4:19 AM
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But the part that piqued my interest is 45 Lansing including the 76 station plot. I had heard a rumor several months ago that it was for sale. Could it be that 45 Lansing will fill that space?
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  #1906  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2008, 5:42 AM
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Sorry, I missed that. This clue or tidbit should probably be in the 45 Lansing thread; but in regards to the site on the corner of Harrison and 1st, there was a permit filled on October 10, 2007 as follows...

From: http://services.sfgov.org/dbipts/def...=PermitDetails
Quote:
UNDERPINNING AS A RESULT OF ADJACENT, NEW CONSTRUCTION @ 45 LANSING
Sorry, I don't have any more information than that at this time, other than the site does seem intended for redevelopment. Anyone else know more?

Last edited by SFView; Sep 13, 2008 at 5:52 AM.
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  #1907  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2008, 12:27 AM
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Has anyone checked out the Transit Center District Plan presentation (warning: this is a 5+MB pdf) from last week? Tons of interesting information in there.

Just a few interesting points:

1. The core Transbay district will be: 70% office, 30% non-office (residential, hotel, cultural). I had wondered why they seemed to be steering clear of residential, or at least mixed use, but their studies indicate there will be ample downtown residential in the coming decades, but that we could find ourselves short of office space by 2035.

2. They will create FAR exemption for any retail, community facilities, or publicly-accessible space provided at the level of the Transit Center rooftop park in adjacent buildings that is directly accessible by a footbridge from the park. In other words, developers who win rights to the various surrounding Transbay plots that connect their building to the park with a public space will get FAR exemptions.

3. They strongly discourage the use of arcades, those covered areas in front of a building that are outside, yet removed from the sidewalk with columns (think: 560 Mission). This is great because those spaces are dreary and dead. You only walk through to get into a building or to use as a passing lane.

3. We'll see set-backs at around 50-110' for taller buildings to create a "more human scale" streetwall.

4. As we've previously heard, everything we see on the northeast corner of Second and Howard will be gone for underground rail connection. In it's place will be a public park that provides a landmark street-to-roof access to the terminal park. This could be quite stunning.

5. How about this?:
Quote:
Any building taller than 800 feet (i.e. Transit Tower) must have a facility of public accommodation at a level no lower than 650 feet
above grade that provides the general public the opportunity for views of the cityscape and Bay. Such facilities may include observation decks, restaurants, bars, lobbies, or any space accessible to members of the general public which does not require an appointment or membership, but which may charge a nominal fee for entrance.
Do check it out. All the above is only from the first half of the presentation. There is a lot more.
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  #1908  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2008, 3:30 PM
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New terms for the payments by Hines for the right to build the tower. Surprise, surprise...instead of $350 million, they're paying $235 million. Although the money will be paid sooner in a manner that is no longer dependent on their ability to lease the tower's space.

Quote:
Tower developer cuts land payment
John King
Thursday, September 25, 2008

The developer selected to build what could become San Francisco's tallest tower has agreed to pay $235 million for the land where the high-rise would be located.

That's well below the $350 million offered by Hines, the development firm, when it was among three firms competing last year for the site at First and Mission streets now owned by the Transbay Joint Powers Authority. But the deal has changed in another way: Most money will be paid shortly after the tower is approved.

The proposed terms are for Hines to pay $160 million within 90 days of the tower being approved by the Transbay board, with additional payments of $15 million each of the next five years. Hines would add $50 million more to build a park atop the mass transit terminal that the authority hopes to start building next to the tower site in 2010.

Hines' original offer delayed payments until an approved tower had 50 percent of its space preleased - a stipulation that in a slow economy could translate into years of delay because construction would be unlikely until that space was leased.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...BASQ134QLK.DTL
Wishing SOM/Rockefeller had bid $8 gazillion to win the rights and then renegotiated down to something they could afford.
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  #1909  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2008, 5:28 PM
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With the $50M for the park, they are in effect paying $285M, which is $65M less in exchange for paying earlier than previously proposed. I think that's a fair trade for the TJPA to make given they need money ASAP to get the new terminal construction underway.

This answered a question I had, which was exactly when Hines' payments would be due: upon terms agreement, upon tower approval, etc. Didn't know about that 50% leasing stipulation, which I think was a big risk for actually getting the money. This deal not only means the TJPA gets its funding sooner, but this will put more pressure on Hines to get the tower built as they have assumed all the risk. With the 50% leased stipulation, they weren't on the hook at all.
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  #1910  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2008, 6:26 PM
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Business Times has conflicting information...

Chronicle: $160 million upfront plus 5 annual payments of $15 million for a subtotal of $235 million with an additional $50 million for the park for a grand total of $285 million.

Business Times: $160 million upfront plus 5 annual payments of $3 million plus 0.5% of operating income (estimated to be ~$10 million over 66 years) for a subtotal of ~$185 million with an additional $50 million for the park for a grand total of $235 million.

Big difference...who's right?

Edit: Here is the official agenda item info for the TJPA meeting. Business Times has it right...total of ~$235 million. See bottom of page 2, going onto page 3.

Quote:
Under the purchase and sale agreement, Hines would pay $235 million to the TJPA, consisting of the following: (i) $160 million in cash within 90 days following final Project entitlement (the "Closing"); (ii) the net present value of $15 million in five installments over the five years following the Closing, (iii) up to $50 million for the rooftop public park as and when needed by the TJPA for construction of the park; and (iv) a participation payment equal to 0.5% of net operating income ("NOI") from the Project for a period of 66 years following Project stabilization with an estimated net present value of $10 million. The $160 million closing payment, the $15 million installment payment, and the $50 million rooftop public park contribution would be increased at the City Rate (as defined below) for any Closing after July 1, 2010.
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  #1911  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2008, 6:35 PM
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I really hope the Chronicle is right, but the Business Times usually get this stuff accurately. Hmmm.
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  #1912  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2008, 6:20 AM
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...And how about the Examiner (slightly different subject)?

From: http://www.sfexaminer.com/local/A_ne..._downtown.html
Quote:
A new Transbay Terminal, a new downtown

By John Upton
Examiner Staff Writer 9/25/08


Commuters catch their buses at the Transbay Terminal. Cindy Chew/The Examiner

SAN FRANCISCO – City planners expect a multibillion-dollar rebuild of the Transbay Terminal to catalyze a South of Market transformation, turning the area into a leafy downtown with tapered towers, ground-floor stores and orderly traffic lanes.

At its center will be a new transit terminal at First and Mission streets that will be rebuilt with a 1,000-foot tower — a development city leaders say will make it the “Grand Central of the West.”

Construction of a temporary facility — needed in order to demolish and rebuild the existing terminal — is due to begin by the end of the year.

More than a new terminal, the Transbay project is part of an overall redevelopment plan for the area, bordered roughly by Third and Main streets and Market and Folsom streets. Within that area, on the 10 blocks of city-owned land left empty after the Central Freeway was torn down following the 1989 earthquake, The City’s Redevelopment Agency plans to build 39 residential buildings between four and 55 stories tall.

Construction of new skyscrapers, which could begin as early as 2010, will pull The City’s downtown toward the new terminal, according to Planning Director John Rahaim.

“The density of development and the height will be greater there than anywhere else,” Rahaim said.

Most of the land will be sold to developers, who are expected to complete construction of the units between 2012 and 2020, according to agency project manager Mike Grisso. The agency will solicit bids on two blocks of land from interested developers next month, Grisso said.

The remaining lots are privately owned, and the proposed new height rules intended to help the redevelopment raise revenue would allow some of the property owners to build up to 800 feet.

The Planning Department is currently in discussions with five owners of property in the area that are interested in developing their parcels of land, planner Sarah Jones said.

Along with looking up to the sky, planning and redevelopment officials are working to ensure that the Transbay redevelopment area improves the “quality of place” at the ground level.

A draft of design guidelines were released by the Planning Department earlier this month. The guidelines and the height rules are expected to be finalized by the Board of Supervisors late next year, Rahaim said.

Some of the proposed guidelines include requiring ground-floor retail, having narrow tower tops on buildings and possibly creating a network of sky bridges to connect buildings with a 5.4-acre rooftop park planned above the new transit hub.

The Planning Department is also refining plans to rebuild the streets with bike and transit lanes and wide sidewalks that will have plenty of park benches and, in some places, double rows of shady trees.

The head of a San Francisco planning think tank praised the proposed design elements.

“The Planning Department has created a plan that isn’t just about concentrating growth,” said Gabriel Metcalf, executive director of the San Francisco Planning and Urban Research Association, “it’s also about creating gracious public spaces, making streets that are great to walk on and making buildings that will be beautiful to look at by tapering buildings to preserve views of the sky.”

Metcalf was critical, however, about how city planners have crafted the proposed new height rules to create a saddle-shaped skyline that arches up to the Transbay Terminal’s 1,000-foot centerpiece peak.

The City is wasting an opportunity to build needed office and residential space, just to create a particular look for the future skyline, he said.

“We should not sacrifice opportunities to live and work near transit just for the sake of sculpting a so-called mound seen from a distance,” Metcalf said.

jupton@sfexaminer.com

Construction likely to affect travel at Transbay Terminal

When the temporary terminal is opened for use to allow for the demolition and rebuilding of the current Transbay Terminal, its limited size will prevent the main bus line using the terminal from expanding its services until 2014.

The temporary facility will be located one block southeast from the current terminal, between Main and Beale streets and Folsom and Howard streets. It will operate for five years while a new permanent facility, which transit officials have predicted will become the

“Grand Central of the West,” is built at the site of the current station.

As with the current facility, the temporary terminal will be used by Muni, Golden Gate Transit, Greyhound, AC (Alameda-Contra Costa) Transit District and Western Contra Costa Transit Authority buses.

AC Transit will not be able to expand its services while the temporary terminal is used because of limited space, Transbay Joint Powers Authority project manager Philip Sandri said at a public meeting earlier this month.

Residents who attended the public meeting voiced concerns about the loss of 600 parking spaces, which will not be replaced, and the conversion of some lanes around the temporary terminal into bus-only lanes.

During the course of the temporary terminal’s construction, traffic disruptions are also expected, according to the authority.

Additionally, a “casual carpool” program will be relocated from the east side of Beale Street to the west side of Beale Street.

— John Upton

Officials hope voters endorse high-speed rail in November

A statewide high-speed rail measure on November’s ballot, if passed, could bolster San Francisco’s flailing fundraising efforts to build a tunnel to bring trains to the new Transbay Terminal, according to city officials.

The first phase of the new downtown transit terminal, which will accommodate buses, is expected to be built by 2014. A second phase, which would include a Caltrain station in order to extend the commuter rail from its current San Francisco terminal at Fourth and King streets is scheduled to open in 2018.

While funding has already been identified or secured for the $1.2 billion transit-center rebuild, another $2 billion needs to be raised for the $3 billion Caltrain tunnel project, according to agency figures for the Transbay Joint Powers Authority.

San Francisco’s downtown transit terminal would become a major stop on a high-speed rail network — taking passengers from Los Angeles to San Francisco — if voters approve a $10 billion bond to build the system, Mike Cohen, director of The City’s Office of Economic and Workforce Development, said.

“If the high-speed rail bond measure passes, it will give us an even more compelling case when we go to Sacramento and Washington seeking funds for the project,” Cohen said.

— John Upton

By the numbers

45 million: People getting on or off buses every weekday at the Transbay Terminal

$1.2 billion: Projected cost of the new Transbay Transit Center

1.3 miles: Proposed underground extension of the Caltrain commuter rail line from the current Fourth and King streets terminal to the new Transbay Transit Center

$3 billion: Projected cost to create an underground extension of the Caltrain rail line from its current Fourth and King streets terminal to the new Transbay Transit Center

1,000 feet: Proposed height of a new Transbay Tower that would rise above the transit terminal

800 feet: Proposed allowable height for some buildings that would be within the Transbay District redevelopment area

850 feet: Height of the Transamerica building — currently The City’s tallest

Sources: Transbay Joint Powers Authority; San Francisco Redevelopment Agency; San Francisco Planning Department
By the way, the Examiner also lists the heights of the following proposals (partial quotes):

Quote:
50 First St., five to seven connected buildings between 600 and 1,200 feet
Palace Hotel, 700 feet
41 Tehama St., 547 feet
350 Mission St., 385 feet
181 Fremont St., 878 feet
(Office up to the 44th floor, and residential from 45 to 56th floors)
All proposals except 350 Mission exceeds the current proposed zoning.

Oh, and I think John Upton meant "45 thousand" instead of "45 million" getting on and off the buses instead.

There is a tiny image of boxy looking tower on the front page of the Examiner. It looks like it could be around about 60 stories or so. It is flanked by a couple of other unrecognizable lighter colored towers, each about a third in height of the taller tower. Sorry, I can't find an image of it to post. Can anyone provide any further information on this rendering?
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  #1913  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2008, 5:31 PM
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45 million. That's funny.

I've read Hines official release on the deal with the TJPA and it sounds to me like the total package is indeed $235M. I think King got it wrong. The release also describes the tower as 1000' tall and that it "is planned to be the tallest building on the West Coast." Since the Library Tower is taller than 1000', can we assume they are just using 1000' as a general guideline, not the actual height? I just hope they don't make it 1019' (the Library Tower is 1018').
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  #1914  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2008, 10:21 PM
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There is mention in the TJPA document that 1000 feet will be the highest occupied floor. So I'd assume the additional above that will push it well beyond the Library (US Bank) Tower.
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  #1915  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2008, 5:28 AM
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So it's a round number they're using. Excellent.
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  #1916  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2008, 6:49 AM
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I also don't think 1000 feet is an exact number.

There were a couple of excellent posts back on page 87 of this thread that help explain the "1000 foot height limit" a little better

Quote:
Originally Posted by quashlo View Post
After attending the meeting, here is my understanding of the Planning Department's thought process:

The 1000' limit is reasonable because it would not cast significant shadows on key open space in the Downtown area, including Union Square, Portsmouth Square, and Justin Herman Plaza. However, increasing the height of the tower beyond 1000' could cause significant shadow impacts to Justin Herman Plaza and the area directly in front of the Ferry Building during the lunchtime period. The definition of "significant" shadows appears somewhat vague: at 1000', the tower would supposedly cause "20 minutes" worth of shade, but at over 1000' would cause "1 hour" worth of shade at this location. Based on the way the planner phrased things, this was the primary reason for limiting the tower to 1000'. He did leave it open and say that the Planning Department was not against having the crown of the building extend above 1000', and also brought up other considerations such as blurring of shadows at a distance and the uncertainties and constraints associated with the shadow models. However, the 1984 law protects certain open spaces, so I'm not sure if there's a way around that. And apparently, the Hines proposal may not be drastically affected since it's 1075' to the roof of the building, with the remaining height occupied by the turbines on top.

The planner also stressed that they wanted the Transit Tower to be the tallest tower on the skyline, meaning that other taller proposals such as the Piano towers across the street would end up lower than the initial 1200' proposals...
Quote:
Originally Posted by caramatt View Post
At the meeting Joshua clarified that the 1000' height limitation was measured strictly by the portions of a structure that would completely block out the sun, and in fact the original Pelli proposal would be measured as only 1065' under those parameters. This means that at most we will see a 65' shortening of the habitable portions of the tower, and the elegant lattice-like crown with wind turbines could absolutely remain...
“The Planning Department has created a plan that isn’t just about concentrating growth,” said Gabriel Metcalf, executive director of the San Francisco Planning and Urban Research Association, “it’s also about creating gracious public spaces, making streets that are great to walk on and making buildings that will be beautiful to look at by tapering buildings to preserve views of the sky.”

Also repeated from the Examiner article above:
Quote:
Metcalf was critical, however, about how city planners have crafted the proposed new height rules to create a saddle-shaped skyline that arches up to the Transbay Terminal’s 1,000-foot centerpiece peak.

The City is wasting an opportunity to build needed office and residential space, just to create a particular look for the future skyline, he said.

“We should not sacrifice opportunities to live and work near transit just for the sake of sculpting a so-called mound seen from a distance,” Metcalf said.
I tend agree with Metcalf. How do others feel about this?

Last edited by SFView; Sep 28, 2008 at 12:06 AM.
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  #1917  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2008, 5:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFView
I tend agree with Metcalf. How do others feel about this?
I also agree with him. Personally, I'm not really that concerned about the overall "look" of the skyline, mostly because it's not something I really interact with much. Concern over "skyline aesthetics" is just the other side of the coin of the people who complain about losing their views of the Bay Bridge because of One Rincon Hill.

Frankly, I'm much more concerned with the design of the street-level environment and the transit operations (i.e., things like the underground walkway to BART, etc.). I'm probably in a minority here as well, but I don't feel the Transit Tower has to be the tallest tower in the skyline either, especially if that means that all the other proposals (particular 50 First) have to get knocked down just so the Transit Tower can maintain some sort of monumentalism. In fact, 50 First is my favorite proposal, precisely because it really puts its money where its mouth is. There is much talk about leveraging the terminal's transit services by building up, but I can't hide my disappointment with projects like 350 Mission (385 ft!?). And while there are lots of towers going up, there is also ample parking being proposed for all these projects, which only works against the concept of building a transit-focused district.

On another note, I was present at the second public workshop where they discussed the street-level design. One thing they talked about was extending the existing historic district to the south side of Mission to encompass some of those buildings (Walgreens, Sherman Clay Pianos, etc.). Personally, I was hoping these buildings would get the same kind of treatment as the Williams Building (St. Regis) and the proposed Mercantile Building (Mexican Museum / condo tower)... We might as well close the gap between the St. Regis and 101 Second.
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  #1918  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2008, 6:44 AM
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I think if the Transbay Tower can maintain 1200' or taller, at least visually by structure, I would prefer the adoption of a slightly modified 1200' scheme, instead of the proposed 1000' scheme. With a hybrid 1000'/1200' scheme, 1000' would be permitted at 50 First St., 850' would be the height for the TJPA site on Howard St., and Transbay Tower could still be 1000' with a 200'+ "transparent" crown on top of it. This would be much more visually dramatic than the 1000' scheme, permit more valuable development, allow sunlight on Justin Herman Plaza in the winter, and would better emphasize the original new southern downtown mound concept.

Last edited by SFView; Sep 29, 2008 at 7:02 AM.
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  #1919  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2008, 11:15 PM
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I gotta side with Metcalf too. I'm sure developements in the future would cover up any "look" of the skyline anyway, if only for a few angles.
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  #1920  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2008, 5:26 PM
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I'm with quashlo on prioritizing street and transit experience, but I'm not opposed to also trying to manage the overall look of the skyline as long those two things are taken care of.

How is the Howard St. TJPA site going to get around the park shadowing issue? At anything above 10 floors or so, it's going to throw a significant shadow on the new Transbay park.
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