Canadian Maps and Graphics

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by isaidso

And Ontario gets a pass because those immigrants aren't real Ontarians?

This would run counter to a rather strong contemporary Ontario and Canadian ethos.

[hipster duck]

Immigrants aside, my intuition is that Ontario and Alberta probably have similar levels of religious belief because Ontario is proportionally less urbanized. A larger percentage of Ontarians live in communities of 10,000 or less, and these places tend to be more overtly Christian.

Anecdotally, rural Alberta seems to wear religion on its sleeve more than rural Ontario. Rural Ontario is already full of religious markers, but Alberta seemed to have even more.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Immigrants aside, my intuition is that Ontario and Alberta probably have similar levels of religious belief because Ontario is proportionally less urbanized. A larger percentage of Ontarians live in communities of 10,000 or less, and these places tend to be more overtly Christian.

Anecdotally, rural Alberta seems to wear religion on its sleeve more than rural Ontario. Rural Ontario is already full of religious markers, but Alberta seemed to have even more.

There's a lot of forgotten Ontario. Or ignored Ontario, more accurately.

People think Ontario = Toronto/GTA and Ottawa. Certainly, the media perpetuates that stereotype, because the media is based in large cities.

But there's whole swaths of rural Ontario. Farm country. Timber/mining country. Millions live in those areas in aggregate.

That being said, most probably think 'religion' means the extreme cult-like versions, like born-again Christian types. I don't get the sense that the median version is anything like that, which is the data the religion survey captures. Most people are relatively normal, even if they do have religious beliefs.

It's more a superiority complex thing for non-religious people to point out how 'religious' other areas are and portray them as backwards. However, that doesn't include religions that are different enough that it's a trendy cultural thing and totally different. Religion is okay if it makes our cities 'diverse' and we can trumpet our superiority that way.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

There's a lot of forgotten Ontario. Or ignored Ontario, more accurately.

People think Ontario = Toronto/GTA and Ottawa. Certainly, the media perpetuates that stereotype, because the media is based in large cities.

But there's whole swaths of rural Ontario. Farm country. Timber/mining country. Millions live in those areas in aggregate.

That being said, most probably think 'religion' means the extreme cult-like versions, like born-again Christian types. I don't get the sense that the median version is anything like that, which is the data the religion survey captures. Most people are relatively normal, even if they do have religious beliefs.

It's more a superiority complex thing for non-religious people to point out how 'religious' other areas are and portray them as backwards. However, that doesn't include religions that are different enough that it's a trendy cultural thing and totally different. Religion is okay if it makes our cities 'diverse' and we can trumpet our superiority that way.

When 2020 Canadians talk about religious fervour as a bad thing, it's only certain religions they have in mind, and not really a blanket criticism of all religions.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

When 2020 Canadians talk about religious fervour as a bad thing, it's only certain religions they have in mind, and not really a blanket criticism of all religions.

The "bad religions" (apologies to the band) seem to vary by region...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

The "bad religions" (apologies to the band) seem to vary by region...

Quite true, though the "exempt", "free pass" ones are more often than not the same!

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

When 2020 Canadians talk about religious fervour as a bad thing, it's only certain religions they have in mind, and not really a blanket criticism of all religions.

I guess what you're saying is that progressive English Canadians have a low opinion of evangelical Christianity, and Quebecois have a low opinion of Islam?

From an English Canadian perspective, I think most people reasonably ask themselves "has this religion imposed their belief on our public sphere?" If it's kind of a benign nuisance - which is almost always the case in English Canada - then they just let sleeping dogs lie.

Islam hasn't really imposed much on English Canada recently. There was that woman a few years ago who annoyed 80% of us (including me) because she refused to unveil during a citizenship ceremony. More recently some vocal members of the South Asian community put the kybosh on Kathleen Wynne's sex-ed curriculum, which Doug Ford promptly killed, but that thing really bit the woke community in the ass more than anyone else. I also think there was a silent majority of Ontarians (again, including me) that didn't support the curriculum and if we didn't actively campaign to kill it, we certainly didn't rally to defend it.

But nobody's decaptitating school teachers.

The conservative evangelical Christian community is a bit more vocal and more powerful here, and they do stick their noses into things a bit more than the Muslim community. Still, I tend to think they don't have that much real power in English Canada. There might be a few backbenchers from rural Alberta or Ontario who get up once in a blue moon to rail against abortion, but women aren't at any real risk of having their reproductive rights taken away, or things like that.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I guess what you're saying is that progressive English Canadians have a low opinion of evangelical Christianity, and Quebecois have a low opinion of Islam?

From an English Canadian perspective, I think most people reasonably ask themselves "has this religion imposed their belief on our public sphere?" If it's kind of a benign nuisance - which is almost always the case in English Canada - then they just let sleeping dogs lie.

Islam hasn't really imposed much on English Canada recently. There was that woman a few years ago who annoyed 80% of us (including me) because she refused to unveil during a citizenship ceremony. More recently some vocal members of the South Asian community put the kybosh on Kathleen Wynne's sex-ed curriculum, which Doug Ford promptly killed, but that thing really bit the woke community in the ass more than anyone else. I also think there was a silent majority of Ontarians (again, including me) that didn't support the curriculum and if we didn't actively campaign to kill it, we certainly didn't rally to defend it.

But nobody's decaptitating school teachers.

The conservative evangelical Christian community is a bit more vocal and more powerful here, and they do stick their noses into things a bit more than the Muslim community. Still, I tend to think they don't have that much real power in English Canada. There might be a few backbenchers from rural Alberta or Ontario who get up once in a blue moon to rail against abortion, but women aren't at any real risk of having their reproductive rights taken away, or things like that.

I'd argue that outside of a few very small pockets like Cardston and Steinbach (and mostly only on a local level), conservative Christianity's impact on Canadian politics and public life is fairly minimal. If anything, I think many Canadians probably overestimate its impact due to influences from the U.S. - where it actually does have more of an impact at the federal, state and local levels.

Overall in Canada I'd say the influence of conservative Christianity in Canada isn't any greater than that of more urban and suburban religions like Islam, Sikhism or (Orthodox) Judaism.

Especially when you consider how present and influential members of these communities are in Canada's natural governing party, and other political organizations.

Much is made of the influence of Evangelicals in the Conservative Party, but I honestly doubt they carry that much more weight than the non-Christian religions of metro area "diversity" do within the Liberals (not just federally, but in certain provincial parties too), the NDP, etc.

[VANRIDERFAN]

I have a very good friend (former Navy buddy) who lives in Orleans. I knew him for over 30 years and had zero idea he and his extended family were evangelical christians, until I went to the funeral of his son who tragically passed away last year.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Islam hasn't really imposed much on English Canada recently. There was that woman a few years ago who annoyed 80% of us (including me) because she refused to unveil during a citizenship ceremony. .

If I remember the details correctly, she actually won a Supreme Court case on the right to wear her face veil during the ceremony. You are correct that most Canadians (I'd add - regardless of province or language ) were annoyed by this at the time. Though the views on SSP Canada were decidedly more mixed and IIRC both the Liberals and the NDP supported her right to stay covered up. So yet another case of the political class (or at least a large segment of it) not being aligned with the public's views. I guess some would say that's because they're more enlightened due to their line of work.

Since things can evolve quickly, it would be interesting to know how people would view this matter today. My guess is that the "annoyed" crowd would be noticeably smaller, at least in much of the country.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I guess what you're saying is that progressive English Canadians have a low opinion of evangelical Christianity, and Quebecois have a low opinion of Islam?
.

Québécois actually have a low opinion of any religious fervour that isn't mostly private, low-key and low-impact on society.

Evangelical Christianity is not viewed in a favourable light here at all but it's basically a non-factor in Quebec and seen as someone else's problem - i.e. the U.S. and even to some degree Anglo-Canada (especially Alberta, based on stereotypes like those referenced upthread).

Catholicism had a huge societal impact and there is still something of a legacy of course, but in terms of influencing things going forward it's seen as a totally spent force.

[hipster duck]

^I think one thing that both English Canadians and Quebecois have to realize is that, compared to the big countries that are the most influential to them - i.e. the US for Anglo Canada, and France for Quebec - the authoritarian impulses of religions (Evangelical Christianity in the US, Islam in France) are very, very benign here.

I think both sets of Canadians shouldn't project too much of those countries' issues onto our own.

---

Anyway, sorry to hijack the maps thread about this.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Québécois actually have a low opinion of any religious fervour that isn't mostly private, low-key and low-impact on society.

Evangelical Christianity is not viewed in a favourable light here at all but it's basically a non-factor in Quebec and seen as someone else's problem - i.e. the U.S. and even to some degree Anglo-Canada (especially Alberta, based on stereotypes like those referenced upthread).

Catholicism had a huge societal impact and there is still something of a legacy of course, but in terms of influencing things going forward it's seen as a totally spent force.

Most Canadians would probably agree here. Outside of weird little pockets, I do not get the sense Canadians are particularly zealot-like in regards to religion.

If there's a zealot-like problem, it's in the defense of behaviour of certain groups that aren't as politically correct to criticize. So, IMO, the lady who wanted to be veiled in the citizenship ceremony probably should have been made to unveil (or find somewhere to live more in line with her beliefs). Sorry, but yielding to certain elements of the predominant culture is an expectation, not an option. I would expect nothing else should I immigrate elsewhere.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

^I think one thing that both English Canadians and Quebecois have to realize is that, compared to the big countries that are the most influential to them - i.e. the US for Anglo Canada, and France for Quebec - the authoritarian impulses of religions (Evangelical Christianity in the US, Islam in France) are very, very benign here.

I think both sets of Canadians shouldn't project too much of those countries' issues onto our own.

.

Broadly agree, though I'd add that Quebec is subject to both French and U.S. influences battling it out, whereas Anglo-Canada TBQH is comparatively "sole-sourced" in terms of socio-political influences at this point in history.

And I'd note that part of the "genius of Canada" has actually been about observing the mistakes made by other countries and learning from them.

We move away from that historically, consistently winning formula at our peril, IMO.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by wave46

Sorry, but yielding to certain elements of the predominant culture is an expectation, not an option. I would expect nothing else should I immigrate elsewhere.

I thought this was a free country... if someone wants to wear a veil I don't get why people get their knickers in a bunch so much over it.

I'm sure that there are some people in Canada who aren't necessarily thrilled about nearly naked guys gyrating on parade floats at every Pride parade, but they have somehow come to terms with it and accept it, as they should. So why is this courtesy not extended to women in veils? Why are they constantly held out as some kind of threat to the established order?

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The astonishing counterpart statistic to this is "religious affiliation" which I believe is highest in Quebec than most anywhere else in the country. Accordingly, Quebec has close to the lowest percentage of "no religious affiliation" people in the country.

The sight of this statistic has been known to give spontaneous orgasms to Quebec bashers out there, and of course especially to those who oppose secularism measures like Bill 21, etc.

Of course, anyone who knows anything about cultural Christianity or cultural Catholicism (as seen in much of Europe or Latin America) doesn't read too much into any of that. Or at least has a more nuanced perspective on what that actually means.

The percentage of the population declaring no religious affiliation pretty much correlates to places that are/were more Protestant. More Catholics = more people declaring a religious identity, including non-believers.

As you say, lapsed Catholics are much more likely to continue to identify their religion than Protestants, for a variety of cultural reasons.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

I thought this was a free country... if someone wants to wear a veil I don't get why people get their knickers in a bunch so much over it.

I'm sure that there are some people in Canada who aren't necessarily thrilled about nearly naked guys gyrating on parade floats at every Pride parade, but they have somehow come to terms with it and accept it, as they should. So why is this courtesy not extended to women in veils? Why are they constantly held out as some kind of threat to the established order?

I have never seen naked gyrating guys at a citizenship ceremony, though.

Maybe I am just not getting invited to the good ones?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I have never seen naked gyrating guys at a citizenship ceremony, though.

Maybe I am just not getting invited to the good ones?

Clearly not

But anyway, if the woman can confirm her identity to the satisfaction of the authorities, then why does it matter if she's wearing a veil?

I mean, even though I don't necessarily agree with it, I can understand the rationale behind Quebec's anti-veil legislation insofar as it's a government attempting to control the outward appearance of its agents for its own purposes. But someone at a citizenship ceremony to become a citizen is there in their own personal capacity and not representing anyone else.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Clearly not

But anyway, if the woman can confirm her identity to the satisfaction of the authorities, then why does it matter if she's wearing a veil?

I mean, even though I don't necessarily agree with it, I can understand the rationale behind Quebec's anti-veil legislation insofar as it's a government attempting to control the outward appearance of its agents for its own purposes. But someone at a citizenship ceremony to become a citizen is there in their own personal capacity and not representing anyone else.

I am in favour of the separation of church and state and generally in favour of Bill 21 (which isn't - minor quibble - anti-veil legislation, per se) but the veiled woman taking the oath of citizenship would definitely be lower on my priority list than the perceived neutrality of "agents of the government", as you say.

[Chadillaccc]

Just for the record, Alberta has the second highest percentage of people identifying as "non-religious" in the country at 32%, second only to BC at 44% (and Yukon at 50%). In contrast, the two provinces with the lowest percentage of "non-religious" people are Quebec and NL, at 12% and 6%, respectively.

Alberta also seems to have relatively very high religious diversity, with the second largest percentage of Muslims, behind Ontario, and the third largest percentages of Buddhists, Sikhs, and Hindus, behind Ontario and British Columbia.

At 60%, Alberta has the second lowest percentage of people identifying as "Christians" in the country, behind British Columbia at 45%.

All of this was back in 2011 even, and with the very high international immigration rates to Alberta relative to others in that time period, I can't imagine much has changed other than moving up the rankings (more "non-religious", more diversity).


Just my two-cents on the topic, with statistics.