Pac NW Plannergeek Honeymoon | Vancouver 1 of 3: Downtown

[mhays]

Originally Posted by mello

^^^ Mhays, does 50 million square feet sound right to you? I've heard downtown Denver has about 27 million square feet. I find it hard to believe that Seattle has double the space of Denver's CBD. I'm not saying that Cirrus's numbers are wrong but maybe what constitutes "downtown" is not a proper comparison.

From a brokerage, the 50 million figure would go well beyond Downtown Seattle proper, so geography is probably a big part. For another variable, brokerages don't count several types of space -- owner-occupied buildings (unless once on leasing market, perhaps), government buildings (unless leased, usually), labs in some cases (which are often half lab, half office), buildings below a size threshhold, buildings that don't answer questionnaires, etc. Every brokerage has very different methods, even between two offices of the same firm.

I'd guess that Downtown Seattle might have 20-40% more office than Downtown Denver, not double. That's purely a guess. It would probably be a higher figure if fringe neighborhoods like South Lake Union are included, and especially if labs are included.

[seaskyfan]

Great photos of a wonderful city. We're so lucky to have three great big cities out in the NW (and a bunch of great smaller ones - did you make it to Victoria?).

[agrant]

Wow, I think Calgary might have Denver beat on office space downtown. Just goes to show you can't really rely on office space alone to guage city size. Nice pics Cirrus. Always great to get someone else's perspective. Looking forward to your other threads.

[seaJ]

The reason Seattle feels bigger to me is not only due to the office building amounts and heights but also how much larger the retail area feels. The multi story dept. stores like Nordstrom and Macys as well as how the retail spans both Pike and Pine for blocks instead of one single street of retail. Seattle has more of a classic big American city feel where is Vancouver is more like an Asian or Brazilian big city feel.

[seaJ]

Originally Posted by Pinion

Nice photos. Granville is great but it's just the party street and not a great representative of downtown as a whole. Hope you went west a bit.



As someone who's in both cities frequently, Seattle seems bigger only in that it has endless sprawl in every direction. Seattle's downtown energy can't compare to Vancouver's - especially after sunset.

This might be true after sunset but from 9-5 downtown Seattle is just as vibrant as downtown Vancouver. Seattle works and does business and to a much smaller extent lives in its downtown. The surrounding urban neighborhoods like Capitol Hill is where the residents and nightlife reside.

[xzmattzx]

Nice pictures. I don't like many modern buildings either, and after thinking about it, some detail to modern buildings (historic or contemporary) would be good.

[ozonemania]

Nice photo set! Been waiting to see these for a while. As your Seattle and Portland sets show, you have a keen eye for all things beautiful. What a great set of cities to have a honeymoon.

As for the notion of Seattle feeling more 'big city', I think the bigger factor is not so much height, but girth. At street level, building height is important for that feel, but if you are walking along streets where building span a whole city block, these big fat buildings just have more of a presence.

I think that's why Seattle has more of that North American big city feel whereas Vancouver has more of that Asian/South American big city vibe, for a lack of a better term.

Anyway, nice to see you got some good views from your hotel! Obviously there's more to come so I am looking forward to that!

[J. Will]

I believe downtown Vancouver including the Broadway corridor actually has around 31-32 million square feet of office space (around 25 million on the peninsula, and 6 or so million south of False Cr.). I'm not at home right now, but I have several pdfs saved. I'll check them when I'm home.

The reason Seattle feels bigger to me is not only due to the office building amounts and heights but also how much larger the retail area feels. The multi story dept. stores like Nordstrom and Macys as well as how the retail spans both Pike and Pine for blocks instead of one single street of retail. Seattle has more of a classic big American city feel where is Vancouver is more like an Asian or Brazilian big city feel.

Vancouver doesn't have just one retail street either though. Granville and Robson are both "destination" shopping streets. Vancouver also has 3 downtown dept. stores to Seattle's 2, and the 2 largest (Bay and Sears) are both quite a bit larger than either of Seattle's, particularly The Bay. Plus the Pacific Centre mall has nearly 200 stores and well over 1 million square feet of retail as well.

[alchemist redux]

Nice photos! I agree with what others have said: Vancouver and Seattle are a different kind of "big".

Downtown Seattle feels like what a classic big American downtown from 1950 must have felt like before deindustrialization and white flight. Grand old department stores, thousands of office workers streaming out of towers and into awaiting buses that dart off to every corner of the region, steakhouses, etc.

Downtown Vancouver is less a commercial centre than a really dense, vibrant residential neighbourhood. Denman and Davie streets on a summer evening has a very Upper West Side vibe to it - it kind of reminds me of what I thought big cities were as a kid watching the music video for Daft Punk's Da Funk.

Ideally you would be able to have both aspects in one city but, outside of New York, I haven't quite found that match. It's good enough, I suppose, that the two cities are 120 miles apart from one another.

PS: The next time you're stuck on Granville island and you want to get back to the Downtown peninsula, take the aquabus (ferry). The one that goes straight across to the other side costs, like, $3 and takes about 2 minutes.

[seaJ]

Originally Posted by J. Will

I believe downtown Vancouver including the Broadway corridor actually has around 31-32 million square feet of office space (around 25 million on the peninsula, and 6 or so million south of False Cr.). I'm not at home right now, but I have several pdfs saved. I'll check them when I'm home.



Vancouver doesn't have just one retail street either though. Granville and Robson are both "destination" shopping streets. Vancouver also has 3 downtown dept. stores to Seattle's 2, and the 2 largest (Bay and Sears) are both quite a bit larger than either of Seattle's, particularly The Bay. Plus the Pacific Centre mall has nearly 200 stores and well over 1 million square feet of retail as well.

I guess it must have changed quite a bit since I was there last because Granville seemed to be more a modge podge of older theaters and maybe a couple of random music/smoke shops and small restaurants. Looks like i need to make a trip up to check out all the new stuff. I also didn't know the Bay was larger than the flagship Nordstrom in downtown Seattle.

[mhays]

I have no idea how large Vancouver's stores are. But generally, you can measure a department store by the size of the building or the size of the retail portion. Seattle's Macy's can be called 800,000 sf or probably 400,000 sf. Nordstrom is a 750,000 sf building but the retail part is 350,000 or whatever, with offices above.

Stores often play games with this, particularly when they want to be known for their size.

[seaskyfan]

Originally Posted by seaJ

I guess it must have changed quite a bit since I was there last because Granville seemed to be more a modge podge of older theaters and maybe a couple of random music/smoke shops and small restaurants. Looks like i need to make a trip up to check out all the new stuff. I also didn't know the Bay was larger than the flagship Nordstrom in downtown Seattle.

Both are true for Granville. The part by the bridge is a lot more beat up - things get progressively schmancier the closer you get to Robson. I haven't been in a few years - it would be great to see more stuff fixed up by the bridge/Davie end.

This thread seems to be going the city vs. city route. I hope folks can back off from the office/retail space comparisons which always seem to lead to apples vs. oranges comparisons. Remember we're actually talking about people's perceptions of the differences rather than concrete comparisons.

[J. Will]

Originally Posted by seaJ

I guess it must have changed quite a bit since I was there last because Granville seemed to be more a modge podge of older theaters and maybe a couple of random music/smoke shops and small restaurants. Looks like i need to make a trip up to check out all the new stuff. I also didn't know the Bay was larger than the flagship Nordstrom in downtown Seattle.

The Sears in downtown Vancouver used to be around 700,000 square feet (actual store space, not just the square footage of the entire building) I believe. And I think The Bay is still about that big. You can see that it's larger than Seattle's stores just looking at it from the outside. It's 6 or 7 floors, and has a larger footprint than downtown Seattle's stores (it has a larger footprint than downtown Seattle's blocks):



Granville also has retail like the urban big box development that was built a number of years ago that houses Future Shop and Winners.

[giovanni sasso]

i do dig all that neon. i've always wanted to see a show at the orpheum.

i've been to vancouver twice and seattle about a half a dozen times, and maybe it's just been where i've been hanging out, but i've always felt like vancouver is this big, international metropolis. maybe it's the effect of the big, glassy skyline against the water and mountains, or maybe it's the vibrancy of a hot summer's day at the lower end of davie street, but that's just the vibe i've gotten. whatever the case, they both make portland feel like a small town.

[st7860]

Its relatively cheap to live in Seattle too.

In Vancouver's Downtown the cheapest 2 bedroom place is only 720ft and costs $400,000 and its 16 years old.

[Prometheus]

Nice Work.

[SpongeG]

cool pics - i've always felt like i am in a city when i go down to seattle, i feel a little more home when i visit portland which i love, vancouver though is usually more lively pedestrian wise to me anyway

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Not to turn this in to a versus thread, but I'll defend the statement:

Vancouver has undeniably more residential towers than Seattle, but that isn't the lone determining factor of "big cityness" any more than height of a city's tallest commercial tower is. And in many other factors, Seattle is undeniably a bigger city. Here's an easy one: Amount of office space in the inner city (info source):

• Central Seattle (downtown and adjacent neighborhoods) has just shy of 50 million square feet of office space.
• Central Vancouver, including the Broadway corridor, has 26 million square feet of office space.
• The entire Vancouver metro area has about 43 million square feet.

So downtown Seattle has twice as much office space as downtown Vancouver, and more than the entire Vancouver region including all its suburbs. It isn't just that Seattle has a couple of taller skyscrapers; it's that the scale of office development in Seattle is off the chart compared to Vancouver. And that doesn't even include Seattle's suburbs (which have another 45 million square feet or so). Because of this, it wouldn't surprise me at all if downtown Seattle has a larger daytime population than downtown Vancouver, even if Vancouver may have many more people at night.

Great thread, I enjoyed your Portland/Seattle visits and I've been looking forward to your vancouver thread for quite some time (what was the damn holdup!?)

One little nitpick, Downtown Vancouver including Broadway has about 30 million square feet of office space and the city as a whole has over 50. Either way it pales in comparison to Seattle, but 4 million sf worth of office space downtown does make a substantial difference, that is roughly 2 1'000 ft office towers after all.

http://www.cushwake.com/cwmbs4q11/pd...ouver_4q11.pdf

Great thread though, I'm glad you enjoyed my former home. I know I sure miss it.

[mhays]

Cushman & Wakefield didn't count everything either. These are all based on what they happen to count, not even remotely authorative.