Is it time for Ontario to be split up into new Provinces?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Blitz

^ The name of the street is the last name of the family that used to farm the long strip of land (that said street now occupies).

It's odd that the name of the city is so British-sounding but the history of the city is so French.

Originally the entire area regardless of which side of the river was pretty mich named Fort Pontchartrain or Détroit.

I think the first anglo place name to appear in the Windsor area was Sandwich and it was around 1800. Windsor came along soon thereafter.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

Just to add, there are several cities and towns in Ontario that are majority French-speaking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Ontarian

The wikipedia page for Clarence-Rockland says that it is the largest francophone majority city in the Americans outside of Quebec and... Haiti!

[TheGenuineArticle]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah. Ottawa is by far the largest city in the region with more than 900,000 people and it's like 85% non-francophone (anglophones + people who speak non-official languages). None of the large cities in the area are majority francophone and the largest one with more than 50% francophones is Clarence-Rockland and it's under 25,000. Also there is only one "region" where francophones are the majority is Prescott-Russell (where Clarence-Rockland is located). Most of the areas south and southwest of Ottawa have little to no francophone population. The area along Highway 17 from Mattawa-North Bay-Sudbury-Sault Ste. Marie has more francophones, though but putting the border at that line also ignores the largish Franco-Ontarian populations to the north in the Timiskaming and Timmins-Kapuskasing-Hearst areas.

Ottawa is about 15% Francophone and 37% of the pop are bilingual in total.
Cornwall is about 20-25% and the counties east of Ottawa are between 25-70% francophone, as well as towns to the north like Hawkesberry which is about 70%.
I included up to Peterborough and Kingston because they didn't fit in the gta and there wasn't enough people to make a province.
It would also include northern Ontario up to the bay to include those areas I just thought it would be assumed

[1overcosc]

Kingston actually does have an active Franco-Ontarian community, much to many people's surprise. It's small (only about two or three thousand people in a city of 150k), but it has a number of community institutions. The province has built French-language schools in Kingston, and the city is classified as a French language services zone by the province so provincial services are bilingual here. The city government itself operates entirely in English (so services like transit for example are all English only), but does financially support a number of community based organizations providing French services and maintains the www.messervicesenfrancais.org website which provides a portal for Francophone services in the Kingston region. It remains to be seen whether this community will survive but its chances have improved.

[Dado]

Regardless of what happens in the rest of the Province (and I think there's a decent case to hive off Toronto as well as annex NW ON to MB), the Ottawa area should be handled differently and granted some form of devolved regional government.

Ottawa faces a number of unique issues, most in some way directly or indirectly related to its status as the national capital.

Ottawa is the only major city in the province whose metro area crosses a provincial boundary, so it has to coordinate with another municipal government operating under different rules.

If a provincial boundary weren't enough, Ottawa also has to deal with the federal National Capital Commission, which happens to be a major landowner in the NCR, and more generally the federal government itself. The City of Ottawa has no powers over the feds, and due to the Constitution the feds have few powers over the city or planning issues.

The City of Ottawa can do precious little in the way of city-building and major infrastructure without running into lands held by the NCC. One consequence of this is that Ottawa has to carry out both federal and provincial EAs for every single major project.

It's not even worth starting on interprovincial transportation issues since it's a great big 5-way gong show.

Ottawa can't adequately coordinate its planning policies with the NCC because their respective processes are at odds and Ottawa doesn't have the power to change its own required processes to accommodate the NCC. It can't even come to agreements with the NCC on planning matters in good faith since they can be appealed to the OMB. Perhaps because the City is so "provincial" the NCC doesn't seem to involve Ottawa or Gatineau much in its own planning. For example, there is no municipal representation on the NCC's board and no NCC representation on any City committees, nor for that matter any cross-representation with Gatineau.

Provincial policies which might make sense in the rest of the province end up being silly in Ottawa. For example Ottawa had to sign on to Ontario's problem-plagued PRESTO system yet a functional system existed already across the border in Gatineau which we could otherwise have adopted. There are shared hydro-electric facilities spanning the Ottawa River within City limits, but be damned if Hydro Ottawa can actually buy power from Quebec. Instead we're tied into whatever hydro policy de jour floats out of Queens Park.

Then there are other irritants which affect people more than the City per se. Quebec has far more permissive alcohol laws than Ontario. Besides the joys brought on by a lower drinking age next door and different closing hours ("it's closing time; let's go to Hull!"), there's the fact that since alcohol can be purchased in grocery stores in Quebec, and since the choice is greater, there's a fair amount of cross-boundary shopping in Quebec... the results of which of course is against the law to bring back to Ontario to boot (it's so ludicrous here that the staff at the Beer Store even chewed out my brother for bringing back Quebec-bought bottles to them - seriously). Another consequence of Ontario's restrictive laws is that craft brewers in Ottawa are far more limited in their ability to sell their wares than their Quebec counterparts.

On the education front, we have four school boards in the Ottawa area, divided on both secular and linguistic lines. As the national capital located on the national English-French linguistic divide, it would probably be in the long term interest of the region to establish a bilingual education system as it would vastly improve the federal job prospects of its citizens and possibly finally start to cut down on the bitterness sitting below the surface.

So in a wide range of areas, from governance to planning and transportation to education and social policy, the Ottawa area would benefit from devolved provincial powers to an extent that no other city in the province would, even the GTA. At the very least Ottawa would make a good place to start experimenting with devolving provincial powers.

None of this need require Gatineau getting the same; indeed we'd be waiting till Jewish Christmas if that were required. Nevertheless, it's likely that once Ottawa gets extra powers, Gatineau in its turn would start clamouring for them as well (if there's one thing Quebec doesn't like, it's being upstaged by Ontario, so there's that). It would be a first step towards better integration of the national capital region, and also a first step towards greater city self-government.

[eternallyme]

Would moving the capital of Ontario to another city help with the alienation issue? If so, where would be the best place for it?

After all, it seems that all parties only care deeply about those areas within sight of the top of the CN Tower.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Dado

Provincial policies which might make sense in the rest of the province end up being silly in Ottawa. For example Ottawa had to sign on to Ontario's problem-plagued PRESTO system yet a functional system existed already across the border in Gatineau which we could otherwise have adopted. There are shared hydro-electric facilities spanning the Ottawa River within City limits, but be damned if Hydro Ottawa can actually buy power from Quebec. Instead we're tied into whatever hydro policy de jour floats out of Queens Park.

Then there are other irritants which affect people more than the City per se. Quebec has far more permissive alcohol laws than Ontario. Besides the joys brought on by a lower drinking age next door and different closing hours ("it's closing time; let's go to Hull!"), there's the fact that since alcohol can be purchased in grocery stores in Quebec, and since the choice is greater, there's a fair amount of cross-boundary shopping in Quebec... the results of which of course is against the law to bring back to Ontario to boot (it's so ludicrous here that the staff at the Beer Store even chewed out my brother for bringing back Quebec-bought bottles to them - seriously). Another consequence of Ontario's restrictive laws is that craft brewers in Ottawa are far more limited in their ability to sell their wares than their Quebec counterparts.

So in a wide range of areas, from governance to planning and transportation to education and social policy, the Ottawa area would benefit from devolved provincial powers to an extent that no other city in the province would, even the GTA. At the very least Ottawa would make a good place to start experimenting with devolving provincial powers.

I think the best solution for Ottawa-Gatineau is a Federal District, much like what exists in the United States, Mexico, and Brazil. This would theoretically be similar to a territory with a commissioner (but not a premier or lieutenant governor), perhaps functioning as a regional government like Waterloo or Peel with the City of Ottawa and City of Gatineau continuing to exist as separate entities (or perhaps splitting up into multiple boroughs). Such a territory would be bilingual like New Brunswick, with a single bilingual school board and guaranteed language rights for both Anglophones and Francophones. This would be separate from both Ontario and Quebec. I don't think this is likely to happen, unless Quebec ever were to win a bid for independence and negotiations between Quebec and the rest of Canada over international boundaries were to take place.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I think the best solution for Ottawa-Gatineau is a Federal District, much like what exists in the United States, Mexico, and Brazil. This would theoretically be similar to a territory with a commissioner (but not a premier or lieutenant governor), perhaps functioning as a regional government like Waterloo or Peel with the City of Ottawa and City of Gatineau continuing to exist as separate entities (or perhaps splitting up into multiple boroughs). Such a territory would be bilingual like New Brunswick, with a single bilingual school board and guaranteed language rights for both Anglophones and Francophones. This would be separate from both Ontario and Quebec. I don't think this is likely to happen, unless Quebec ever were to win a bid for independence and negotiations between Quebec and the rest of Canada over international boundaries were to take place.

I'd keep away from the term "district" as it is hopelessly vague and we did at one time have "districts" within the Northwest Territories. I think it would be best to avoid multiple jurisdictions within the territory, so it would be a kind of city-territory, modelled on Canberra. As a federal capital, there's already a built-in multi-jurisdiction aspect to governance which need not be exacerbated by additional levels. In theory Washington fits the bill, but in practise the way it is run is definitely something to avoid, and Brasília is a province-like entity that has a bunch of municipal-like sub-jurisdictions. Mexico seems to have a structure (city-state) roughly equivalent to that of Canberra, though it started out with a structure more like Brasília (though due to being an existing city, unlike Brasília), so there may be some things to learn on turning a municipal government into a semi-state like one. Canberra is really the one to look to for inspiration as it operates in a roughly similar federation to Canada.

My own pet nomenclature is "Prefecture", so the Capital Prefecture. The head of state position would be the Prefect and the head of government the Provost. That title keeps the "pr" of premiers and prime ministers while the word itself is used instead of 'mayor' in Scotland and in France, prévôt, was a royal official in charge of managing a burgh.

[eternallyme]

Revisiting this issue...I really think a new provincial capital is necessary. The reason is simple: the fact it is in Toronto seems to push bureaucrats and parties even more to only focus on that city, knowing the GTA can form a majority government in itself.

But where would be the best place for a new Ontario capital?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Revisiting this issue...I really think a new provincial capital is necessary. The reason is simple: the fact it is in Toronto seems to push bureaucrats and parties even more to only focus on that city, knowing the GTA can form a majority government in itself.

But where would be the best place for a new Ontario capital?

Where is the dead centre of the province?

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Revisiting this issue...I really think a new provincial capital is necessary. The reason is simple: the fact it is in Toronto seems to push bureaucrats and parties even more to only focus on that city, knowing the GTA can form a majority government in itself.

But where would be the best place for a new Ontario capital?

That wouldn't make a difference, the majority of MPPs would still be representing GTA constituents. There would just be a smaller pool of talent to draw upon and a ton of administrative and infrastructural costs to make instead by moving it to a new city.

[BenTheGreat97]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Revisiting this issue...I really think a new provincial capital is necessary. The reason is simple: the fact it is in Toronto seems to push bureaucrats and parties even more to only focus on that city, knowing the GTA can form a majority government in itself.

But where would be the best place for a new Ontario capital?

We could split it up into three:

Northern Ontario
Province population, ~730,000
Capital City, Sudbury: metro population of ~160,000 (22% of province)
Northern Ontario is very pro-NDP which would give them what they want for a change.

Southern Ontario
Province Population ~10,880,000 (excluding Ottawa/NCR)
Capital City, Toronto: metro population of ~5,583,000 (51% of province excluding Ottawa/NCR)
Rural areas are conservative strongholds, urban areas are mostly liberal with barely any NDP representation. Fairly sure they'd elect liberal.

National Capital Region
Province population ~1,400,000-1,500,000 estimate
Capital City, Ottawa/Gatineau (de-facto by federal district) (100% province population)
Rural areas are conservative strongholds, urban areas are mostly liberal but they can swing a bit. I don't know how they'd do election-wise.
This is an interesting bit, because it involves removing Gatineau/Hull/Aylmer from Quebec and merging it with the National Capital Region + Ottawa Valley to form a single federal entity.

Thoughts?

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Revisiting this issue...I really think a new provincial capital is necessary. The reason is simple: the fact it is in Toronto seems to push bureaucrats and parties even more to only focus on that city, knowing the GTA can form a majority government in itself.

But where would be the best place for a new Ontario capital?

The problem is that Toronto is very suited to be capital, not just as the largest city, but due to geography. It's centrally located within southern Ontario.

The next logical choice in terms of population would be Ottawa but Ottawa's already federal capital and it's far off to the eastern fringe of the province.

London or Kingston maybe, but they're also not particularly central within the Ontario context.

Sudbury or anywhere north is too far away from the bulk of the population centres of the South.

Really, a much easier solution to this problem is simply decentralizing the bureaucracy and having regional offices make more decisions. Already, there's a lot of this--Guelph and Kingston are both major administrative centres for the provincial government.

[ssiguy]

Toronto is an ideal location for Ontario's capitol. If Toronto wanted to leave however then Ontario could not stay intact. Too much of the province would require driving thru another province {Toronto} to get to your own provincial capitol.

If Toronto left then you would have 3 Ontario provinces....North, East, and South/West. Which city became the capitol of a Northern Ontario would be very contenscious with both TB and Sudbury making very good cases for each other. I don't think there would be any discussion about the other two areas..........London and Kingston.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by BenTheGreat97

National Capital Region
Province population ~1,400,000-1,500,000 estimate
Capital City, Ottawa/Gatineau (de-facto by federal district) (100% province population)
Rural areas are conservative strongholds, urban areas are mostly liberal but they can swing a bit. I don't know how they'd do election-wise.
This is an interesting bit, because it involves removing Gatineau/Hull/Aylmer from Quebec and merging it with the National Capital Region + Ottawa Valley to form a single federal entity.

Thoughts?

The Quebec government has a law on the books that makes it illegal for it to cede or sell land to the federal government or any other province.

Quebec won't even sell land to the feds in order to expand the federal NCC's Gatineau Park, even if the NCC promises to retain it as parkland only.

Plus a majority of people on the Gatineau side of the river would not go for this.

[Beedok]

Maybe Barrie or Peterborough could work as a new capital? Or Guelph?

[eternallyme]

I was thinking Sudbury (or perhaps North Bay) as the capital. Distance is still much shorter to there than from northwestern Ontario, and it pushes the seat of government away from the economic pressures.

In the US, several state capitals are located in relatively small cities far from the vast majority of the population. Examples: Tallahassee, FL (although that is where the population was historically), Juneau, AK, Springfield, IL and Pierre, SD.

[Acajack]

Ontario without Toronto seems more like an amputation than a logical redrawing of borders.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

I was thinking Sudbury (or perhaps North Bay) as the capital. Distance is still much shorter to there than from northwestern Ontario, and it pushes the seat of government away from the economic pressures.

In the US, several state capitals are located in relatively small cities far from the vast majority of the population. Examples: Tallahassee, FL (although that is where the population was historically), Juneau, AK, Springfield, IL and Pierre, SD.

Juneau and Tallahassee were both the heart of their States when chosen. Springfield is basically in the centre of its state, which if you ignore Chicago is fairly evenly population, and Pierre is smack dab in the middle of South Dakota where the largest cities are on opposite ends of the the state.

[haljackey]

Maybe make a new capital in Barrie?

It's centrally located and still close to the population centres of the south. It's also a gateway to the northern regions of the province.