Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

the doctrine of human interchangeability and a global culture is just something to reduce friction among the end-level actors.

Holy Christ, that is cynical. I wouldn't go that far myself. But yeah, it's tangential to the conversation in this thread.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Chinese only signs are all over the place in Markham, too, as well as Toronto's other numerous Chinatowns, but you don't hear of any grassroots movements in protest.

Which is interesting, given that the Chinese enclave in Markham is Canada's most Chinese neighbourhood. I think this may be due to proportional numbers in the GTA as a whole, in that no one ethnic group is much of a "threat." You've got Markham, Canada's most Chinese area, and Brampton, Canada's most South Asian area, and while there are certainly probably long-time white Canadian residents who might quibble with how their cities/neighbourhoods have changed, on the whole people are probably now resigned to the overwhelming ethnic makeup of those places, and self-select in the neighbourhoods they choose to live in.

It's not ghettoization per se. It's self-segregation. Something that long-term residents are less happy about, obviously. I'm sympathetic, but I'm not sure how to reconcile my own liberal ideals about freedom of movement with the need to protect heritage. It's a tough one.

My view is that it's easier when you have a strong, well-defined culture for people to integrate to:

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My view is that it's easier when you have a strong, well-defined culture for people to integrate to:

You think that Toronto has a more well-defined culture than Vancouver? I don't know anything about Vancouver, so I don't have an informed opinion on that, but I always felt like people I met from Vancouver weren't all that different from me in terms of being Canadians.

[Policy Wonk]

According to a Chinese speaking colleague born in Hong Kong, most of the Chinese-only signs she has seen in North America were advertising goods and "services" that might be frowned upon by the public at large.

Although she phrased it a little more crudely than I did.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

You think that Toronto has a more well-defined culture than Vancouver? I don't know anything about Vancouver, so I don't have an informed opinion on that, but I always felt like people I met from Vancouver weren't all that different from me in terms of being Canadians.

I was actually establishing a parallel between Canada and the U.S.

Personally, I don't think there is anything particularly Vancouverish about this Richmond signage thing. It could have happened in Toronto too but this time it happened to be Vancouver that was the theatre for the drama. Multicultural adjustment issues happen in Toronto too: think of racial profiling of black youths by Toronto police, for example.

I agree that culturally and ethos-wise both places are fairly similar.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Personally, I don't think there is anything particularly Vancouverish about this Richmond signage thing. It could have happened in Toronto too but this time it happened to be Vancouver that was the theatre for the drama.

I disagree, and that's why I made my post. I don't think it's a fluke that it happened in Vancouver and not Toronto. There's something more at work here. It probably has something to do with the larger size of Toronto. Toronto has far more ethnic Chinese people than Vancouver, but they are a smaller contingent percentage-wise, which suggests that they are perceived as less of a "threat."

Which is not to suggest that there aren't inter-ethnic tensions in Toronto, of course.

[Acajack]

I don't see Toronto and Vancouver as markedly different in their approaches to the multicultural realities of 2014.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't see Toronto and Vancouver as markedly different in their approaches to the multicultural realities of 2014.

I don't know anything about Vancouver. But this is a concrete example of a sharp difference between Vancouver and Toronto on the very topic of multicultural realities, which is why I find it interesting.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I don't know anything about Vancouver. But this is a concrete example of a sharp difference between Vancouver and Toronto on the very topic of multicultural realities, which is why I find it interesting.

This has been brought to the fore by a 1000-name petition. You really don't think that you could get 1000 people in the GTA to sign a similar petition? Do it and bingo - the same issue comes to the fore in the GTA.

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This has been brought to the fore by a 1000-name petition. You really don't think that you could get 1000 people in the GTA to sign a similar petition? Do it and bingo - the same issue comes to the fore in the GTA.

Every member of Ford Nation would sign it. How many 1000s is that?

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Personally, I don't think there is anything particularly Vancouverish about this Richmond signage thing. It could have happened in Toronto too but this time it happened to be Vancouver that was the theatre for the drama. Multicultural adjustment issues happen in Toronto too: think of racial profiling of black youths by Toronto police, for example.

I'm veering off topic here, but one of the failures of multiculturalism as policy in Canada is how race, racism and racial integration has been tied up in matters of culture, immigration and language. Race and racism really ought to be addressed separately, especially given that racism has been an enduring element in the dominant culture. To me, lumping race into the discourse on cultural integration ends up assigning the responsibility for racism to the racial minorities it affects (i.e. "they won't integrate") instead of tackling it head on as a broader social problem (i.e. "racism has been present in Canada since the first European settlers arrived here").

"Black youth" do not represent a cultural group in the traditional ethnic sense in Toronto. Black youth here can trace their ancestry and culture back to different countries on different continents speaking different languages and practising different religions. Some arrived in this country only yesterday while others have ancestry here going back to the foundation of the city. What unites them as a cultural group or category is the definition the wider culture assigns them, which is partially founded in wider North American narratives on Blackness and informed by a common experience of race and racism.

Of course, there are ethno-cultural quirks that can complicate matters further. For example, I was recently reading that one of the cultural misunderstandings that creates tension with the police in some Caribbean communities is how one group misinterprets signs of respect for authority (avoiding eye contact and speaking softly) as signs of suspicion. But minor potentials for miscommunication can hardly account for a centuries-old legacy of colonial racism (which manifests itself differently across the Americas, yet is definitely present in all of our New World cultures of hybridity).

In a similar way, multiculturalism can be used as a smokescreen to dismiss the legitimate concerns of Aboriginal people and communities (and, for that matter, in a different way, to dismiss francophone communities as well - that "we're all the same and multicultural!" way).

Multiculturalism is a great policy that I support wholeheartedly, but it has limitations that aren't always acknowledged and carries the real potential to be invoked in discussions where it serves no purpose (except, perhaps, to dodge taking ownership over deeply-seeded social injustices).

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This has been brought to the fore by a 1000-name petition. You really don't think that you could get 1000 people in the GTA to sign a similar petition? Do it and bingo - the same issue comes to the fore in the GTA.

You're just being argumentative and dismissive. The petition is one thing, but then there's this:

Eighteen months later, something has changed. In a unanimous decision last week, Richmond reversed its earlier stance by directing its lawyers to figure out whether it could legally start cracking down on Chinese-only signs.

This is not happening in the GTA. A fluke? Totally random? Of course not. The differences between Vancouver and Toronto here are interesting. I'm curious about the possible reasons for those differences.

[Procrastinational]

I grew up in Richmond, and I feel somewhat strongly that all the signs should include English.

Right off the bat, I can tell you that it is misleading when people say the vast majority of signs include English. This is true, but quite often there is significantly more information on signs in Chinese than English. I don't have to know the language to figure out that four or five lines of Chinese characters doesn't equate to one English word.
I generally avoid businesses with no English signage as I assume that no one inside will be able to speak any English. The few times I have ventured in I've either been met with puzzled looks, or actually been shooed out of the store.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect new immigrants to learn the language of their new country. That was just a given until the last few decades, and I think the previous approach worked just fine.


One thing I noticed in school in Richmond is that their is a very strong division between two different groups of students. On one hand you have white kids, brown kids, Filipino kids, etc. Basically all of the locals as well as "Canadianized" immigrants or children of immigrants, who tend to have similar views and all speak English.
On the other hand, you have the heavily Chinese component who exclusively speak Mandarin or Cantonese to each other and do not interact with the former group whatsoever. Quite often these are the same ones that have extremely wealthy parents, and show up to school in $100k+ cars with N's on the back.

One of the more insulting attitudes I heard in school, mainly from the Chinese students was that Canada did not have a culture and that they were doing us a favour by creating a culture for us. While I'll admit that our culture is subtle relative to other countries, I find it a bit rude to entirely dismiss the culture that has developed here over the last century or two.

Interestingly, some of the most anti-Chinese sentiment I heard growing up actually came from the children of East-Indian and Filipino immigrants who were very frustrated with Chinese immigrants and their children not bothering to learn English.


All that being said, I'm all for multiculturalism on the condition that it benefits the majority of the population in Canada. Non English signage that excludes Canadians and other groups of immigrants does not achieve said goal.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I shouldn't have to adapt to a non-local culture. I was born in Ukraine and moved to Canada for all of the reasons you mentioned above, except I learned English and embraced the North American culture and lifestyle. I guess I just don't see why other cultures can't do the same.

It's a two way street. Immigrants coming to Canada bring their own culture and it adds to the diversity of our country by their presence. How much or how little one "assimilates" is simply a difference of degrees, and I don't particular care where on the spectrum a person may fall - everyone is different.

I think fundamentally this is a question of whether the government should play a role in furthering the prominence of a single culture. IMO they should stay out of the languages used for private businesses, and if they don't, they should go back to enforcing communication in our two official languages. British Columbia and Alberta have a piss poor record of even being able to offer basic government service in French. If we can't even do that right, forget about giving English prominence in all commercial enterprise - the motivations go right out the window.

As for the differences between Vancouver and Toronto, I think the obvious long history of anti-Chinese sentiment coming out of Vancouver and BC in particular is obvious. I've been to Toronto and Vancouver many times. This isn't an issue in Toronto, it's a fringe complaint at best. In Vancouver, different story, it's pervasive. The difference is obvious, and one look at the history of the two cities shows you why.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This has been brought to the fore by a 1000-name petition. You really don't think that you could get 1000 people in the GTA to sign a similar petition? Do it and bingo - the same issue comes to the fore in the GTA.

I live in Richmond and I think that this is an over-blown issue that has got profile by an outgoing City Councilor who really just said that she has had a change of heart since the last time the signage bylaw this was debated and perhaps it's time for the City to return to the issue. Sure, it's easy to be cynical to say that she only found her position on the issue when she was no longer up for re-election. It's also worth considering that this is a strategy to keep her name in the media prior to launching her candidacy for Provincial or Federal office. It may also be worth taking it on face value and accept that her opinion has changed.

As a Caucasian resident in my early 30s, who has grown up in the "mosaic" and "tapestry" era of multiculturalism, I sincerely don't have an issue with Chinese-only signage, which I need to stress is pretty rare in the grand scheme of things. It just isn't an issue for me. If I cannot read a business' sign I'm likely not going to patronize it, assuming that their products and services are even of interest. Simple as that.

I'm not very likely to use the services of a tour operator that specializes in package group tours of China for Chinese ex-pats and senior citizens. I'm not very likely to use the services of a traditional Chinese medicine practitioner or purchase traditional Chinese herbs and supplements. I'm also not very likely to purchase insurance from a brokerage that caters to the native Chinese language speakers, or learn driving from an instructor that specializes in helping new arrivals get their BC Drivers' License, or use an immigration consultant that helps me bring my family over. The list continues and I would hazard to guess that these businesses constitute nearly all of the Chinese language-only signs in Richmond.

The only issue that I see, and I put it out there that I'm looking at this an urban planner, is that retail in Richmond is relatively concentrated and when clustering of businesses that cater exclusively to native Chinese language speakers occurs, it can result in residents who live in proximity having fewer retail options in walking distance that cater to the English language speaking population. In that context, I can see how long-time residents could feel that their retail choices have been constrained if they have no use for those businesses and services, either for language reasons or the types of services they offer. It is kind of zero-sum when the areas of Richmond that do have retail are so concentrated.

This all doesn't really bother me and I just accept that when you live in a municipality that has a high proportionality of foreign-borne residents, the local retail options will cater to that population at this time in history. The kids and grand kids of these immigrants are wholly fluent in English and have grown up and are part of the culture, so these Chinese language-only businesses are primarily catering to a relatively narrow segment of the population. It's kind of a real-politik situation and not that much different than if I were to live in a very wealthy neighbourhood and find that, surprise, the local retail options cater to a certain segment of that population who have disposable income and inherited or acculturated tastes in conspicuous consumption. Were I to live there, I would likely find that I would be constrained by the day-to-day utility of that retail landscape.

[MonkeyRonin]

Should this be in English too?


http://thebatavian.com/howard-owens/...pizzeria/25162



What we're talking about here are business names - they can and should be called or represented in any (otherwise legally acceptable) manner that their owners deem appropriate. Language is not even relevant here - if someone wants to name their store #Δ$λ†^! that should be their prerogative.

It's another matter if their employees don't speak the local official language or won't serve customers of other or certain ethnicities however, but, as far as I can tell that's not happening here.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Should this be in English too?


http://thebatavian.com/howard-owens/...pizzeria/25162



What we're talking about here are business names - they can and should be called or represented in any (otherwise legally acceptable) manner that their owners deem appropriate. Language is not even relevant here - if someone wants to name their store #Δ$λ†^! that should be their prerogative.

It's another matter if their employees don't speak the local official language or won't serve customers of other or certain ethnicities however, but, as far as I can tell that's not happening here.

Pizzaria is even used in Qc, like, Pizzeria Stratos. The point : we have to know what is written. pizzeria = pizza. French or English , or go home.

[memememe76]

Right off the bat, I can tell you that it is misleading when people say the vast majority of signs include English. This is true, but quite often there is significantly more information on signs in Chinese than English. I don't have to know the language to figure out that four or five lines of Chinese characters doesn't equate to one English word.

Not sure why this is a problem. Most English signs/banners consist of a few words, Chinese or not Chinese. If you never heard of "Best Buy" before, I suppose someone could mistake it to be a grocery store. Does it matter that they don't have other words like "electronics", "DVDs", etc on their signs.

To me, what's more misleading is that Richmond is somehow this land of Chinese-only businesses. Richmond Centre and Aberdeen Mall are just like any other boring Canadian mall. Richmond even has an IKEA. Superstore is just like any other Loblaws grocery. Steveston is not at all Chinese. Do people get lost and confused in Aberdeen Mall? I mean, really? Daiso confuses people?

ETA: I am not exactly a Richmond booster. I live in Surrey, for goodness sake. I totally understand the frustrations of living in and around Richmond. But Chinese-only signs (which, again, are really infrequent) are the least of Richmond's problems.

[matthew6]

I find shops with foreign language signage quaint..... exotic even. I think they add to the fabric of neighbourhoods. It's never crossed my mind that these things were some sort of threat or anything. What would people prefer to see? An endless sea of Wallmart, Loblaw and Futureshop signs? Now that's what I find offensive - but I wouldn't attempt to legislate against it.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by matthew6

I find shops with foreign language signage quaint..... exotic even. I think they add to the fabric of neighbourhoods. It's never crossed my mind that these things were some sort of threat or anything. What would people prefer to see? An endless sea of Wallmart, Loblaw and Futureshop signs? Now that's what I find offensive - but I wouldn't attempt to legislate against it.

If we were talking about any other language this wouldn't even be a topic of discussion. Something to think about.