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  #221  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2018, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ac888yow View Post
A predictable one, that playbook.
Yeah, Ottawa is awesome and fun, highly underrated city, and I'm fine with that. A hidden gem.
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  #222  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2018, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
I think there is an underlying mentality of "if you want to inhabit these 4 square miles south of Bloor, be creative and productive or rich, or get out".
Another question worth asking is why it's always the same 4 square miles so many people want to live in. Shouldn't that area be expanding? Shouldn't we build new neighbourhoods that are better than the old ones in a bunch of ways aside from simply being more affordable?

I think central Toronto is great and most of the rest is frankly pretty unappealing.

The Sidewalk Labs project is supposed to be like that but I am skeptical. I think they will bring in technical improvements but fail to solve the larger social problems.
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  #223  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2018, 10:48 PM
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Does anyone find it a bit curious that Lonely Planet, the arguably the gold standard of travel guides, stopped publishing a city guide to Toronto?

https://shop.lonelyplanet.com/catego...ategory=canada

Vancouver and Montreal being the only 2 other Canadian cities to hold that honour.

The last edition Toronto City Guide was published over a decade ago.
https://www.amazon.ca/Lonely-Planet-...+lonely+planet
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  #224  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2018, 10:50 PM
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Four square miles is just the downtown core. The desirable urban neighbourhoods South of Bloor/Danforth stretch from the Beach in the East to High Park in the West -- that's a lot more than four square miles.
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  #225  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2018, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ac888yow View Post
A predictable one, that playbook.
As its residents. I have a condo there and my years lived in that city were the worst of my life.
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  #226  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2018, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by softee View Post
Four square miles is just the downtown core. The desirable urban neighbourhoods South of Bloor/Danforth stretch from the Beach in the East to High Park in the West -- that's a lot more than four square miles.
I pulled a number out of my ass, but my point still stands: the area south of Bloor, west of Spadina to Roncy is an area of tremendous flux and it doesn't belong to anyone who is willing to put roots there unless they are willing to make extreme sacrifices.
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  #227  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2018, 10:56 PM
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Real-life story.

All of my kids are under 18. Some well under.

Over the past 18 months or so, there have three separate instances involving three separate families where a parent of one their friends has given one my kids alcohol without my consent and without my being present. In one case it was a child of mine that had just turned 14. In two of the three cases these are the upper middle class white collar parents of schoolmates who don't even know me! (In the other case, the parents are a casual acquaintance of mine.)

Something tells me this isn't going on in Kanata or Vaughan to any frequent degree. (Even though I am fairly sure a fellow SSPer is likely preparing a fake story to that effect right now.)

My wife and I have discussed this with family and friends across the Ottawa River including some in southern Ontario, and the reactions ranged from consternation to outrage.
It was the norm when I was a teenager in New-Brunswick. Heck, our senior year at high-school, we had obtained a liquor permit for minors(!) with cops looking after kids drinking.

A liberal trait doesn't make its people different. People in Montreal give alcohol to teenagers akin to French people. Binge drinking is an Ontario trait, you'd barely see that in Montreal. In the end, which one is the most conservative? Knowing how to drink or getting shitfaced drunk?
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  #228  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2018, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
Another question worth asking is why it's always the same 4 square miles so many people want to live in. Shouldn't that area be expanding? Shouldn't we build new neighbourhoods that are better than the old ones in a bunch of ways aside from simply being more affordable?

I think central Toronto is great and most of the rest is frankly pretty unappealing.

The Sidewalk Labs project is supposed to be like that but I am skeptical. I think they will bring in technical improvements but fail to solve the larger social problems.
Yonge and Eglinton is just as fun, so are some of the avenues such as College St., Adelaide West, Bloor Street, etc. It's not just 4 sq miles. Heck, the downtown core basically doubled in size the last few years and is pushing deep into the inner suburbs. North York City Center is improving, Square One is great as well, lots of hidden but fun neighborhoods in Richmond Hill, Scarborough and Brampton and Etobicoke.
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  #229  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2018, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
I pulled a number out of my ass, but my point still stands: the area south of Bloor, west of Spadina to High Park is not a place for anyone but creative types, the rich, the poor in subsidized or rat-infested housing and people who are willing to make all kinds of sacrifice to stay put, even as all their peers age and move away and the establishments they grew up close and make way for the next thing.
Why would we want downtown to be an old folks home for retired nimbys? Toronto is a playground for the young or young at heart, suburbs are for the family oriented people who want a more laid back life. Downtown is still easily accessible by GO train. Most of the population growth downtown is due to kids from small town Ontario coming to try their luck and the Canadian born children of immigrants from the suburbs wanting to live a more urban and connected lifestyle.
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  #230  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2018, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by CivicBlues View Post
Does anyone find it a bit curious that Lonely Planet, the arguably the gold standard of travel guides, stopped publishing a city guide to Toronto?

https://shop.lonelyplanet.com/catego...ategory=canada

Vancouver and Montreal being the only 2 other Canadian cities to hold that honour.

The last edition Toronto City Guide was published over a decade ago.
https://www.amazon.ca/Lonely-Planet-...+lonely+planet
The tourism promoters in this city are a joke. They still have the Bata shoe museum and some ceramics museum listed as actual attractions. Nowhere are Yonge-Dundas, Richmond street, the new waterfront or the trendy neighborhoods listed.
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  #231  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2018, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
I pulled a number out of my ass, but my point still stands: the area south of Bloor, west of Spadina to Roncy is an area of tremendous flux and it doesn't belong to anyone who is willing to put roots there unless they are willing to make extreme sacrifices.
That's a really narrow definition of the great 'happening' places in the city. But yea, I suppose that's ground zero.
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  #232  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2018, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mistercorporate View Post
Why would we want downtown to be an old folks home for retired nimbys? Toronto is a playground for the young or young at heart, suburbs are for the family oriented people who want a more laid back life.
I'm not talking about downtown. Downtown is impersonal and commercial, and I'm fine with that. It's what a downtown should be.

I'm talking about the inner city residential neighbourhoods south of Bloor. They're great, and all, but they belong to a young generation who then passes the torch to the next ones to take their place. It's not a place anyone can settle and then raise a family unless you're supremely rich or willing to make a lot of sacrifices. I'm willing to make sacrifices, but only to a point. I don't particularly want to raise children in a converted bay and gable house that was never meant to be converted into multifamily rental where I'm at the whim of a private landlord that could sell my place at any time, where the floors sag, you can hear the neighbour flush his toilet upstairs, and the stove is a tiny thing tucked in the corner and always on the fritz.

Families should have more options than just cramming into a handful of 2BR condos built on the margins of the core or suburbia, BTW.
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  #233  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2018, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by d_jeffrey View Post
As its residents. I have a condo there and my years lived in that city were the worst of my life.
Hope you're feeling better.
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  #234  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2018, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ac888yow View Post
Hope you're feeling better.
Yup! Never been better thanks for asking. No federal public servant to ruin my day.
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  #235  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2018, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
I'm not talking about downtown. Downtown is impersonal and commercial, and I'm fine with that. It's what a downtown should be.

I'm talking about the inner city residential neighbourhoods south of Bloor. They're great, and all, but they belong to a young generation who then passes the torch to the next ones to take their place. It's not a place anyone can settle and then raise a family unless you're supremely rich or willing to make a lot of sacrifices. I'm willing to make sacrifices, but only to a point. I don't particularly want to raise children in a converted bay and gable house that was never meant to be converted into multifamily rental where I'm at the whim of a private landlord that could sell my place at any time, where the floors sag, you can hear the neighbour flush his toilet upstairs, and the stove is a tiny thing tucked in the corner and always on the fritz.

Families should have more options than just cramming into a handful of 2BR condos built on the margins of the core or suburbia, BTW.
It's all true enough, but their are a lot of downtown families, in larger apartments or SFH. (There are sacrifices, but I'm speaking more on families that kept the same homes for years, or maybe moved around a bit in their neighbourhood but stayed in the same few blocks due to family ties.) I don't get what you mean by downtown being for the young......at all actually. It sounds like an advertising campaign.
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  #236  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2018, 11:40 PM
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Let me give you an equally emotional, equally unempirical and biased example of mine to compare to your sentiments about Montreal. I left Toronto in 2008 and returned last year for family reasons. In the intervening time, everyone I knew and cared about moved north of Bloor street to areas between Dupont and Saint Clair. The only guy I know who stayed south of Bloor moved way east to Little India and started a family. It's funny. You go up to St. Clair and Bathurst or walk along the much more urbanistically inconsistent Dupont restaurant strip, and it feels like the whole graduating class of 2005 is there. When I travel south of Bloor, I feel like we all collectively left this part of the city to the tattooed under 30-somethings, or people who made a lot of money on Bitcoin and bought a whole house. The writing is on the wall: we are going to get pushed further north into suburbia. I don't feel that this generational segregation is as much of a force in Montreal. I don't feel that people who live in the Plateau are counting down the days until the kids push them out to Ahuntsic and then, eventually, Laval. There is further pressure in Toronto given that the size of the decent urban fabric is smaller than in Montreal. I don't think this is wholly a product of housing prices, either. I think there is an underlying mentality of "if you want to inhabit these 4 square miles south of Bloor, be creative and productive or rich, or get out".

I know what you're getting at here, but I also think you're focusing just a bit too narrowly on the "creative class"-type demographic. There are still no shortage of long-time, working class Portuguese and Chinese families down here with no urge to leave; nor are the newer Ethiopian and Tibetan immigrants; or the old hippies, junkies, or even just the regular old workaday middle class white people - and all sorts of others jostling for space here in the West End.

In any case, while it's probably the "best" part of the city in many ways, it's not the only part. There are at least a good 150 sqkm worth of decently urban neighbourhoods around town - if more people spread out into some of those other areas and in turn make them more vibrant & urban, then I'd say that's a good thing.
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  #237  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2018, 11:42 PM
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Yup! Never been better thanks for asking. No federal public servant to ruin my day.
I didn't actually ask you anything, but I guess you're welcome.
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  #238  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2018, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
I know what you're getting at here, but I also think you're focusing just a bit too narrowly on the "creative class"-type demographic. There are still no shortage of long-time, working class Portuguese and Chinese families down here with no urge to leave; nor are the newer Ethiopian and Tibetan immigrants; or the old hippies, junkies, or even just the regular old workaday middle class white people - and all sorts of others jostling for space here.

In any case, while it's probably the "best" part of the city in many ways, it's not the only part. There are at least a good 150 sqkm worth of decently urban neighbourhoods around town - if more people spread out into some of those other areas and in turn make them more vibrant & urban, then I'd say that's a good thing.
Good post - I had the same thoughts as you on the subject. I think the bigger issue is one of affordability, which applies to an area much larger than central Toronto. And a topic for another thread. There's certainly no lack of things to do outside of Toronto's west end (including many of the best new restaurants and bars), and the type of living constraints related to old / substandard housing certainly applies in a place like Montreal.
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  #239  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2018, 12:08 AM
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Good post - I had the same thoughts as you on the subject. I think the bigger issue is one of affordability, which applies to an area much larger than central Toronto. And a topic for another thread. There's certainly no lack of things to do outside of Toronto's west end (including many of the best new restaurants and bars), and the type of living constraints related to old / substandard housing certainly applies in a place like Montreal.
No, I don't think it's affordability. I think it has to do with the fact that the commercial areas where Toronto creative types want to settle is remarkably constricted and has seemed to hit a glass ceiling.

MonkeyRonin was right in a roundabout way: if more people with urban affinities supported the businesses around them, then Toronto's urban fabric (which is not just physical, but social) would expand. But they don't, so we're stuck pining over the same areas. If those areas expanded, then Toronto would be more 'affordable', in the sense that we would bring the desirable amenities closer to more people. Moving the mountain to Mohammed, so to speak.

I mean, yes, the area that is considered 'cool' has expanded and now places like Bloordale Village and the Junction are much more vibrant than when I left 10 years ago (well, sort of, these areas were already getting there when I was here before), but, given that Toronto's urban population has grown by 20%, or so since the boom started, and its wealth even more so, I was kind of hoping there would be more of a spread of vibrancy rather than a super-concentration of it.

In a way, I'm arguing against what Kool Maudit is applauding.


Final point: I try to support the businesses in my fledgling area around Bathurst and Wilson, which is the outermost point of Toronto that could be considered 'urban' in any way. I even walk to these places, even though driving would be easier. Beyond me, it's pure suburbia. I like the Filipino restaurants up here, and I also have a soft spot for the Jewish businesses further south of the 401 on Bathurst, but I can't get anyone to come up here and give it their time of day. Also, the good Filipino restaurants aside, I can't walk to a full selection of stores and services that meet my needs, so the area has limited appeal to me. A lot of Toronto's inner suburbia is stuck at that sort of Los Angeles-level of walkable limbo, that I think turns people off. On a more serious and less navel-gazing level, this area is very dangerous for cyclists and pedestrians. There's a flower tied to the pole outside of my building indicating that a pedestrian died there not too long ago. When I ride my bike, I ride on the sidewalk since the road is a traffic sewer. It's yet another part of the outer 416 where the distance between traffic lights means that people dart across the traffic just to reach a bus stop going in the opposite direction. In the areas where I live the city has built these bizarre traffic islands that permit pedestrians to cross to a sheltered midpoint, but leaves the act of crossing the road wholly in the pedestrian's hands. There isn't even a sign warning motorists that pedestrians might cross. A walkable area will not be cultivated here under these circumstances.

Last edited by hipster duck; Jul 31, 2018 at 12:27 AM.
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  #240  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2018, 12:30 AM
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It may be due to Torontos places to grow masterplan that concentrates highrise development primarily in a few mass transit oriented nodes.
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