Is MARTA ready for it's closeup??

[austlar1]

Over the next several weeks and months, MARTA rail is going to be put to the test. It is the single best alternative for commuters hoping to avoid the massive traffic snarl caused by the fire and collapse of a key part of the Atlanta freeway system. Ridership on trains (and buses) is likely to gain huge numbers. It should be interesting to see whether some of these new transit users stick and stay once the highway system is restored to working order. It would be interesting to hear anecdotal reporting on how MARTA is holding up during this period.

[Ueeediot]

Hello,

I have lived and worked in Atlanta for 40+ years. Ive watched Marta grow from a child.
Now, there are a lot of people in this town who will tell you MARTA expansion has been shot down because of racial issues or politics, etc. But, I want to tell you from a different perspective, that many who live outside of this area do not understand, as to why MARTA does not, and will not, help while we have lost a major artery I-85

First, you have to note that Atlanta is different than most all major cities with a mass transit plan in that Atlanta has no physical boundary. No mountain, lake, river, ocean, etc. Atlanta has sprawled in every conceivable direction. If you grab a map of Atlanta you will see that we have a perimiter (I-285) that circles the city. We refer to areas as either ITP or OTP. you are in or out of the perimeter.

Now, look at a map of MARTA. You quickly see that MARTA barely goes OTP.

Now, here is the rub. All of these people (millions, in fact) that live far OTP, 20 miles or so.....once they get in their car....they are not going to stop and get out once they get to the nearest MARTA stop. Its just not going to happen.

And yes, you could start extending rail lines 30 miles in each direction from the center of town.....but if I cannot get to the front door of my office building, Im going to take my nice air conditioned or heated car where I can listen to what I want to hear (not what someone else forces me to listen to) and I wont be pan handled every single day.

It may be unpopular, but its the reason people dont use MARTA who live OTP except to go to sporting events.

At the end of the day, mass transit rail does not work for a geography of 400+ square miles. We need forward thinking solutions and our elected officials are not interested in doing anything that may be seen as risky. Instead, they are pointing a finger at transportation plans from 1996 or are do nothing politicians making a name off finger pointing.

[austlar1]

Now, look at a map of MARTA. You quickly see that MARTA barely goes OTP.

Now, here is the rub. All of these people (millions, in fact) that live far OTP, 20 miles or so.....once they get in their car....they are not going to stop and get out once they get to the nearest MARTA stop. Its just not going to happen.

Well, at least some of these folks are going to have to stop or get dropped off at a MARTA station for the next little while, if they want to get into town or to the airport in a reasonable amount of time. I can't even begin to imagine what traffic is going to look like on the Perimeter Highway over the next few weeks.

[cabasse]

Originally Posted by Ueeediot

Hello,

I have lived and worked in Atlanta for 40+ years. Ive watched Marta grow from a child.
Now, there are a lot of people in this town who will tell you MARTA expansion has been shot down because of racial issues or politics, etc. But, I want to tell you from a different perspective, that many who live outside of this area do not understand, as to why MARTA does not, and will not, help while we have lost a major artery I-85

First, you have to note that Atlanta is different than most all major cities with a mass transit plan in that Atlanta has no physical boundary. No mountain, lake, river, ocean, etc. Atlanta has sprawled in every conceivable direction. If you grab a map of Atlanta you will see that we have a perimiter (I-285) that circles the city. We refer to areas as either ITP or OTP. you are in or out of the perimeter.

Now, look at a map of MARTA. You quickly see that MARTA barely goes OTP.

Now, here is the rub. All of these people (millions, in fact) that live far OTP, 20 miles or so.....once they get in their car....they are not going to stop and get out once they get to the nearest MARTA stop. Its just not going to happen.

And yes, you could start extending rail lines 30 miles in each direction from the center of town.....but if I cannot get to the front door of my office building, Im going to take my nice air conditioned or heated car where I can listen to what I want to hear (not what someone else forces me to listen to) and I wont be pan handled every single day.

It may be unpopular, but its the reason people dont use MARTA who live OTP except to go to sporting events.

At the end of the day, mass transit rail does not work for a geography of 400+ square miles. We need forward thinking solutions and our elected officials are not interested in doing anything that may be seen as risky. Instead, they are pointing a finger at transportation plans from 1996 or are do nothing politicians making a name off finger pointing.

i think you might be surprised how educated this forum's populace is to the specific problems facing atlanta.

anyway, there's this:



and even more exciting is this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Atlanta/com...a_to_cobb_and/

getting marta into cobb and gwinnett county would be game changing.

[C.]

Let's see how much og that ridership boost sticks after the bridge is repaired...

[Ueeediot]

i wonder how much that 25% increase will grow over the next couple of weeks or if it will not. I think the true measure will be on Monday, 4/10 when the local schools get back from spring break.

[yakumoto]

Originally Posted by Ueeediot

Atlanta is different than most all major cities with a mass transit plan in that Atlanta has no physical boundary. No mountain, lake, river, ocean, etc.

Kind of like how Chicago, with its unending room to sprawl westward, doesn't have a functional transit system... but seriously, this is nonsense. Lots of cities don't have a functional and comprehensive mass system but put the blame where its due: a lack of political will, not "unique" geography.

[austlar1]

Originally Posted by yakumoto

Kind of like how Chicago, with its unending room to sprawl westward, doesn't have a functional transit system... but seriously, this is nonsense. Lots of cities don't have a functional and comprehensive mass system but put the blame where its due: a lack of political will, not "unique" geography.

Amen to that. I get tired of hearing that as an excuse for Atlanta's unwillingness to try to extend rail transit to the far suburbs.

[C.]

I take transit everyday and want to see MARTA succeed, but let's be real. Auto-dependent Atlanta is not going to step up to this challenge.

[austlar1]

I know MARTA can't possibly solve every commuters transportation dilemma, but a lot of commuters who do live and/or work within a reasonable distance of a MARTA station or have access to connecting bus routes just might find that using MARTA is not the worst thing that could happen. Even when the Atlanta freeway system is fully functioning, it can be an absolute nightmare to use it. I just read that ridership is up by close to 40% so far today. It will be interesting to learn whether there is any lasting impact on ridership rates once the crisis is resolved.

[SpawnOfVulcan]

If nothing else, it will force a large number of people to familiarize themselves with, and get comfortable with, mass transit. Many of these people grew up in places where transit was either non-existent, not financially feasible, or where society looked down on transit as "the poor man's transportation". This could have a big equalizing effect that, hopefully, will make people look at MARTA differently and notice the opportunities and conveniences it could provide everyone.

Also, it could help outsiders understand why people from other walks of life depend on MARTA as their sole source of transportation and thus realize the need to support it holistically.

Plus, a noticeable change in attitude (post I-85 reconstruction) could create a ripple effect across the Southeast. If people in cities like Jacksonville, Memphis, Birmingham, and others notice MARTA as an effective transit system, their electorate (and then their elected officials) may begin to take stronger looks at more robust transit systems.

[BrownTown]

1. There's simply no way for MARTA to make up the difference here. Sure some people could drive to the nearest MARTA station, but the parking isn't even remotely sufficient to accept 300,000 people.

2. MARTA should never be extended outside the perimeter because Atlanta is far too sparse for it to make any sense. Commuter Rail out in the suburbs might work, but heavy rail out in sparse suburbs is absurd.

3. There is no incentive for Atlanta to get any denser because they can literally sprawl in every direction. Cars are simply a superior form of transportation to trains and the only reason people ever take trains is because some cities like New York and San Francisco are on peninsulas where they can't sprawl out appropriately.

[SpawnOfVulcan]

Originally Posted by BrownTown

1. There's simply no way for MARTA to make up the difference here. Sure some people could drive to the nearest MARTA station, but the parking isn't even remotely sufficient to accept 300,000 people.

2. MARTA should never be extended outside the perimeter because Atlanta is far too sparse for it to make any sense. Commuter Rail out in the suburbs might work, but heavy rail out in sparse suburbs is absurd.

3. There is no incentive for Atlanta to get any denser because they can literally sprawl in every direction. Cars are simply a superior form of transportation to trains and the only reason people ever take trains is because some cities like New York and San Francisco are on peninsulas where they can't sprawl out appropriately.

Of course extending heavy rail out in every which way doesn't make sense, but there are a few corridors that it does.

Extending the blue line east to Lithonia and Conyers seems reasonable.

As does extending a new line from downtown up the 75 corridor to Vinings, Cumberland, Dobbins, Kennesaw State, Marietta, and Kennesaw.

[lrt's friend]

Ottawa to invest $1.9B in GO Transit’s regional express rail project

Under the regional express rail program, GO plans to electrify trains on its busiest routes and implement all-day, two-way service at frequencies of every 15 minutes or better.

By BEN SPURR Transportation Reporter
Fri., March 31, 2017

The federal Liberals will invest $1.9 billion in GO Transit’s regional express rail program, the prime minister announced Friday.

Speaking at a press event at the Willowbrook GO yard in south Etobicoke with the premier and federal infrastructure minister, Justin Trudeau said Ottawa would contribute to the program, which over the next 10 years will increase service on GO lines throughout the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area.

The province has estimated the cost of regional express rail (RER) at $13.5 billion, and had previously committed to paying the full cost. Trudeau said the price tag on the initiative makes RER “the single largest transit project in which the federal government has ever invested.”

“These funds will help improve the lives of millions of Ontarians by making sure that students make it on time to their first job interview, that parents make it home early to help their kids with their homework, that families enjoy what their communities have to offer, whenever they want,” he said.

The money will flow through the New Building Canada Fund, which was set up by the previous Conservative government.

Under RER, GO plans to electrify trains and implement all-day, two-way service at frequencies of every 15 minutes or better on its busiest routes. The agency will also quadruple the number of trains operating outside weekday rush hours, double the number of trips during weekday rush hours, and build up to 12 new stations, including up to six stops as part of Mayor John Tory’s SmartTrack plan.
Under a deal council agreed to last November, the city is responsible for the cost of the SmartTrack infrastructure, however.

More than $750 million of the $1.9 billion in federal funding will go toward upgrades on the Kitchener GO corridor, and will help pay for work that includes grading, bridge and station modifications, and the construction of about 40 kilometres of new track.

The remainder of the funds will be split between the Barrie, Lakeshore East, and Lakeshore West corridors, and will contribute to upgrades that include 88 kilometres of new track.

Premier Kathleen Wynne said that taking into account RER and other planned investments in the GO network, the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area is in the midst of “the largest commuter rail transformation in Canada.” GO plans to spend $21.3 billion on upgrades and new service over the coming years.

Wynne said because of the new federal funding “the province now has the ability to invest even more in other priority transit projects that will improve people’s commutes.”

Provincial officials said it was too early to say which projects the province could use the freed up money to fund.

Fielding questions from reporters, Trudeau also defended his government’s decision to eliminate the 15-per-cent tax credit for public transit passes. The decision, which the Liberals announced last week as part of the federal budget, has been criticized by some transit users and raised concerns about the possible negative impact on TTC ridership.

Trudeau said that his government is “committed to evidence-based policy” and there was no indication that the “boutique tax credit” had its intended effect of increasing transit ridership. He also argued that because the credit is non-refundable it didn’t benefit low-income people who don’t earn enough to pay federal income tax.

“So we feel that investing more money in the things that are actually going to help people is exactly what Canadians expect of this government,” Trudeau said, claiming that “no government in the history of Canada has invested as much in public transit as we have.”

The prime minister also announced Friday that Ottawa has approved over 300 additional projects in Ontario for funding under the first phase of the Public Transit Infrastructure Fund. According to the 2017 budget, under the second phase of the fund the government plans to spend more than $20 billion on transit over the next decade.

If Toronto can do it, why can't Atlanta? There simply needs to be the political will as is described in the above article, which was published just yesterday.

Using the comment that the city is not on a peninsula is simply an excuse. If anything, not having geographical constraints makes it easier to extend service. You don't need to tunnel under San Francisco Bay at enormous cost.

[BrownTown]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

If Toronto can do it, why can't Atlanta?

A quick check on Google shows that Toronto is over 4 times as dense as Atlanta. Atlanta could certainly expand MARTA if it's density increased by a factor of 4 but that's not reality

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Using the comment that the city is not on a peninsula is simply an excuse. If anything, not having geographical constraints makes it easier to extend service. You don't need to tunnel under San Francisco Bay at enormous cost.

The fact it has no land constraints means that land is much cheaper and therefore density is much lower because anyone who wants a big yard can have one. A brand new mansion with a massive yard in Atlanta costs less than a small row home that's 80 years old in San Francisco. Of course building rail is cheaper in Atlanta too, but the point is that there's nowhere to build it to if everyone lives in sparsely populated suburbs.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by BrownTown

A quick check on Google shows that Toronto is over 4 times as dense as Atlanta. Atlanta could certainly expand MARTA if it's density increased by a factor of 4 but that's not reality

Go Transit is Toronto's commuter rail network serving areas outside of urban Toronto. This article talks about the conversion of this commuter rail system into full blown rapid transit. This model will work regardless of density as it is based on catchment population. You drive to a station and ride the train into the city.

Toronto's plan will eventually integrate Go Transit fully into the transit network of a vast area inside and outside Toronto.

There is no reason why this can't work in Atlanta if there is the political will to build it instead of endless highway expansions.

[BrownTown]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This model will work regardless of density as it is based on catchment population. You drive to a station and ride the train into the city.

No, it won't because there will only be 1/4th as many people in the same area around each station so the cost per rider will essentially be multiplied by 4. Theoretically people could just drive twice as far to each station, but a lot of those commutes wouldn't make any sense as people would have to drive well out of their way which would end up taking far longer.

I mean, just take your argument that density doesn't matter and apply it to a place with 1 person per square mile and you'll clearly see such an area can't support transit. Density is everything when it comes to transit economics.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by BrownTown

No, it won't because there will only be 1/4th as many people in the same area around each station so the cost per rider will essentially be multiplied by 4. Theoretically people could just drive twice as far to each station, but a lot of those commutes wouldn't make any sense as people would have to drive well out of their way which would end up taking far longer.

I mean, just take your argument that density doesn't matter and apply it to a place with 1 person per square mile and you'll clearly see such an area can't support transit. Density is everything when it comes to transit economics.

Obviously if there is 1 person per square mile, there will not be the catchment population either.

However, if density is one quarter, then people will be travelling 4 times further as well.

My point is that Toronto and Atlanta have similar metro populations therefore more extensive rail service should be possible.

Toronto is proving that rail service does not have to be limited to the urban area.

This is not the same as subway or LRT service with stations every mile or less. We are talking about long distance commuter rail service with stations every 10 miles. Yes, people have to drive a distance to a station but if the roads are congested, then this becomes attractive.

I believe the whole point of this thread is about the impact of a closed expressway, which means greater road congestion. I assume that Atlanta has its share of road congestion even under normal circumstances. At some point, congestion will create a demand for an alternative if it is offered.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

If Toronto can do it, why can't Atlanta? There simply needs to be the political will as is described in the above article, which was published just yesterday.

Using the comment that the city is not on a peninsula is simply an excuse. If anything, not having geographical constraints makes it easier to extend service. You don't need to tunnel under San Francisco Bay at enormous cost.

The Bay Area equivalent to MARTA, BART does go to some pretty distant suburbs and more all the time (the Warm Springs extension almost to San Jose just opened and the extension that goes THROUGH San Jose is about ready to get built). But the system also goes out to Pleasanton in the direction of the Central Valley and has a connection to a diesel extention called e-BART that will bring it to Antioch. It is 45 miles from Antioch to downtown SF; 40 miles from Pleasanton to downtown SF, almost 50 miles from Warm Springs to downtown SF.


https://www.pinterest.com/timoig/map...cisco/?lp=true

San Francisco (the city) has its own transit network called Muni or the SF Municipal Railway which does not and does not want to cross the Bay or extend down the Peninsula. The rail portion of the system looks like this (a new Central Subway connecting the T-line at 4th & King to Chinatown via SOMA and Union Square is under construction, due to open in 2 years):


https://www.pinterest.com/pin/41165784067190992/

[Innsertnamehere]

The quoted article is for Toronto's commuter rail system. Some of those lines run 90 miles outside of downtown into the outer suburbs. Density isn't as important for that sort of service.