Dallas l DART Light Rail Expansion Updates

[jtk1519]

I can't get a link to it right now, but WFAA did a report last night on the Cotton Belt. Going off memory, DART originally hoped to have the Cotton Belt up and running by 2030, but lack of funding forced them to look into a private/public partnership and now there is talk of the Cotton Belt breaking ground next year and being up and running in 4 years. Price tag according to the report is $1 billion (not sure if that is just the DART segment or if that includes the entire 65+ mile line) and supposedly they have 1/3 of the money raised with multiple avenues to fund the rest. Sounded promising.

[jamesinclair]

Originally Posted by electricron

New York's MTA is often referred as a great intra-state and inter-state operation. But it is ran under three separate train organizations, running different equipment. You have the MYA subways, Long Island Railroad, and Metro North. Even Metro North, a commuter railroad, runs different cars on different lines bought by different states....So this idea of yours that one rail solution is best is entirely incorrect....

NY runs like that because it's a legacy system. There was no cooperation because they were private companies competing with each other.

And even then, metro north does work with Connecticut to provide large amounts of service. And Connecticut is working with massachusetts to get a new commuter rail line running.

I didnt say one rail solution is best, I said one unified system is best. The dallas transfer is the result of agencies not working together. Nobody wants to take the commuter train to the middle of nowhere and then transfer. It wasnt done this way because it was the best option.

Im not saying Dallas is alone. In fact, when I took a train from switzerland to france, we had to transfer in the middle of nowhere, probably because the agencies didnt want to work together.

But thats not the best course of action. It's petty.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by jamesinclair

I didnt say one rail solution is best, I said one unified system is best. The dallas transfer is the result of agencies not working together. Nobody wants to take the commuter train to the middle of nowhere and then transfer. It wasnt done this way because it was the best option.
Im not saying Dallas is alone. In fact, when I took a train from switzerland to france, we had to transfer in the middle of nowhere, probably because the agencies didnt want to work together.
But thats not the best course of action. It's petty.

I don't think it is petty for tax subsidized agencies to look after the best interests of their taxpayers. If different transit agencies have different goals, you're going to see different trains. FWTA, DCTA, and DART have different territories based upon where they can tax. The State of Texas provides $Zero$ from state funds, just the means for local cities to form or join transit agencies by taxing themselves.

It's the State's sales tax cap that has caused multiple agencies within a metropolitan area. FWTA and DCTA member cities can only charge a half penny sales tax, DART member cities charge a full penny.

DART doesn't want to serve cities that charges less than the full penny tax. FWTA and DCTA wanted a train from their county seats to Dallas. FWTA and DART agreed on what and how to build it (TRE). DCTA and DART didn't, and that's why there is a transfer in Carrollton.

Another example where transfers are common in the middle of nowhere is LIRR's Jamaica Station. So many lines branch out in different directions there, transfers are common.

In the future, the downtown Carrollton could be much like Jamaica Station. There's the possibility of FOUR different rail corridors meeting there. (1) DART, (2) DCTA, (3) Cotton Belt, and (4) Frisco. Having to transfer in Carrollton is going to be just as common as in Jamaica.

P.S. Can you guess which train (as planned today) will be different from all the others in Carrollton? (Answer: DART)

[mrnyc]

how ridiculous -- jamaica, queens is hardly the middle of nowhere. not all lirr trains change there either. its one of the busiest stations in nyc and sees 1k trains and over 200k passengers pass thru every day. and that is not counting the subways and airtrain. meaning sorry electrichomer but its going to be quite some time at best before carrollton should even be mentioned in the same breadth as jamaica - lol!

back down to reality --- its good to see oak cliff streetcar planning. that seems to be the right type of service for that area and hopefully it will happen.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

how ridiculous -- jamaica, queens is hardly the middle of nowhere. not all lirr trains change there either. its one of the busiest stations in nyc and sees 1k trains and over 200k passengers pass thru every day. and that is not counting the subways and airtrain. meaning sorry electrichomer but its going to be quite some time at best before carrollton should even be mentioned in the same breadth as jamaica - lol!

back down to reality --- its good to see oak cliff streetcar planning. that seems to be the right type of service for that area and hopefully it will happen.

When LIRR originally built the Jamaica Station we know now 100 years ago, how large was Jamaica? How large was Jamaica when the rail was first built to Jamaica by 1873?


Difficult to find historical population figures just for Jamaica, but easier for all of Queens County. From http://www.queenstribune.com/anniver...02/history.htm
"In 1850 there were just 20,000 people in Queens, but by the turn of the century, the population had reached 153,000......By 1920, however, the population had grown to nearly half a million."

Carrollton has a population of 129,000 today, significantly larger than Jamaica when the first passenger trains arrived.... Jamaica has a population of 216,000 today, not even twice that of Carrollton, which still has room to grow being a second ring suburb of Dallas.

[mrnyc]

so your point is 150 yrs ago jamaica, queens had a more developed rail system that carrollton today. umm, no kidding? reality is jamaica, queens is a neighborhood of the city of new york and for over 100yrs not a suburb, queens has a population of 2.5M, and transit development at jamaica is hardly set in stone/stagnant, but dont let all that stop you from bending time and playing simcity with carrollton.

while i applaud metroplex dfw for its locally amazing investment in transit and your homer-ism about it in particular, you really need to get out of texas and visit ny or other big transit cities around the world to keep it in reality check. there is just no rational comparison of carrollton to jamaica past or present as i will hope you get to see for yourself sometime. portland, denver, msp and perhaps other new rail transit cities would make much better comparisons for dfw rail at this point.

otoh i grant you that the future is, of course, unwritten.

[Lyly]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

so your point is 150 yrs ago jamaica, queens had a more developed rail system that carrollton today. umm, no kidding? reality is jamaica, queens is a neighborhood of the city of new york and for over 100yrs not a suburb, queens has a population of 2.5M, and transit development at jamaica is hardly set in stone/stagnant, but dont let all that stop you from bending time and playing simcity with carrollton.

while i applaud metroplex dfw for its locally amazing investment in transit and your homer-ism about it in particular, you really need to get out of texas and visit ny or other big transit cities around the world to keep it in reality check. there is just no rational comparison of carrollton to jamaica past or present as i will hope you get to see for yourself sometime. portland, denver, msp and perhaps other new rail transit cities would make much better comparisons for dfw rail at this point.

otoh i grant you that the future is, of course, unwritten.

If I'm not mistaken, nobody compared Carrollton to Jamaica in the sense that they are similar communities with a similar standing in their respective regions. I think the point that was made was that Carrollton could serve as a transfer hub for the DART, DCTA, and Cotton Belt lines, much as in Jamaica. Now, obviously, not all transfers in New York are made in Jamaica, but no one said all transfers made in the Metroplex would be made in Carrollton either. So, let's not draw from this arguments that were never intended to be made. After all, no one's really dissing New York here, just praising Dallas.

[urbanactivist]

Look, not to labor the point, but Texas doesn't have the types of critical density issues that NYC has. We park for free on surface lots as far as the eye can see, and we basically drive everywhere. While NYC never had a the chance to develop a car culture in that way (a very good thing IMO). But, we should applaud efforts for transit improvements everywhere and anywhere that we can.

[dfwcr8tive]

• Video Link

[Lyly]

Wow, that's a pretty cheesy video. Too technical for main-stream audiences, I'd say.

And I think it highlights the necessity to simplify the station names. Instead of Baylor Medical Center blahbideeblah, maybe just Baylor or Baylor Medical. Instead of Las Colinas Urban Center or whatever, just Las Colinas and Las Colinas South. Instead of Irving Convention Center Station, just Irving Station.

Shorter station names would help colloquialize them. People could say "Las Colinas Station" rather than "Las Colinas Urban Center Station". It's a mouthfull."

What DART needs most right now is positive publicity as a real and effective alternative to driving. A 25% increase in ridership is great, but that number's not going to convince people to start riding buses or trains too. Until DART attracts the average commuter, the one who doesn't realize that he could save money and time by taking the train to work, then the system is going to continue to be sluggish.

[TexasBoi]

If you think those stations are not simple enough. Go look at some of names of DC stations for their system. They will have you rolling.

I don't think it's a big deal though. Most people will shorten the name themselves anyway.

[FoUTASportscaster]

^Agreed, I think it is a non-issue. I doubt someone would be about to tride the train, look at the station name and say never mind.

Lyly, just how would you go about getting that positive publicity?

[Lyly]

Originally Posted by FoUTASportscaster

Lyly, just how would you go about getting that positive publicity?

Man, I don't know. I wish I knew, because I'd love to see an even more successful DART. I think the Green and Orange Lines are going to help a lot in the coming years as ridership increases dramatically.

I just think that the idea of public transportation doesn't resonate with North Texans like it should. There still seems to be an idea that it's more expensive, more of a hassle, not convenient enough, etc. When, in many cases, it actually more expensive, etc. to drive a car around.

I'm not really proposing anything or throwing any new ideas out, as I really don't have any. But, it's frustrating to see people not take advantage of a really amazing situation.

[jtk1519]

Some Orange Line construction pics via elecricron's post on the Dallas Metroplois board...

Bachman Station junction

Over Harry Hines Blvd.

Over Stemmons Freeway

Over Trinity River

Adjacent to Carpenter Freeway

University at Dallas Station

South Las Colinas Station

Irving Convention Center Station

Over Carpenter Freeway

Over MacArthur Blvd.

North Lake College Station

Crossing Bush Turnpike and Beltline Rd. Station


www.dart.org

[FoUTASportscaster]

Originally Posted by Lyly

But, it's frustrating to see people not take advantage of a really amazing situation.

I get it too. I was able to give up a car because most everything I need can be reached by DART/TRE. Imagine getting the equivalent raise at work of one car.

[jamesinclair]

Worst transit station ever?

[photoLith]

Now why cant Houston do this?

[dfwcr8tive]

Originally Posted by jamesinclair

Worst transit station ever?

Why is that?

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by photolitherland

Now why cant Houston do this?

I have no idea. For some reason, D/FW has just absolutely blown Houston out of the water in terms of its public transit. DART is an excellent service, only getting better, MUCH better. Houston will likely take 40-50 years before reaching DART's success right now, yet alone with the upcoming expansions!

Aaron (Glowrock)

[TexasPlaya]

Originally Posted by photolitherland

Now why cant Houston do this?

Because Houston already has a good commuter system in it's park&ride and doesn't need commuter rail like this. Also, Houston is building (at least trying to) an inner city rail. DART's rail system is hybrid so it's trying to do both.

Transit isn't a one size fit all problem as Houston's method wouldn't work for DFW and vice versa.