What is it like to come home to Canada?

[giallo]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Maybe the biggest thing is the overall lack of ambition. I don't think there's anywhere in Canada where you feel like you're living in a consequential place. And that translates to a "just good enough but no better" mentality that leads to a lot of things being shittier than they ought to be.

Very good point.

I think the life in Shanghai spoiled me. Every night you went out, you'd meet someone new that was happy to talk about what they're doing in Shanghai, and after a few beers, you've exchanged business cards, made a friend, and networked a new contact that would sometimes become a client. All this would happen without you even realizing it at first. Everyone was game, and ready to collaborate.

I don't get that vibe at all in Vancouver. I feel like it's not really appropriate to talk business when meeting new people. Sometimes, it comes off as bragging when all you're really trying to do is let people know what you do. Other times, people come off as guarded, like they don't want you to know what they do. It's really weird.

I was under the impression this was a Vancouver thing, and cities like Toronto, Calgary and Montreal would be a lot more open and friendly when it comes to talking shop, and wanting to get things done.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Is that not culture and identity, though?

I guess. I just find it a tad trite though that this portrayed as something special. Like you can't sit in an F150 in a Tim's lot in any city in Canada. There's nothing really unique about it. But it gets elevated to culture in small towns.

This wouldn't normally be relevant. Except that we're forever hearing about how these places are mostly dying. Absent recent influx of foreign students and workers (sorry..."polyculture"), how many of these places have stopped population loss? I'm going to suggest that at least if they were at least a tad more charming, they'd have a better shot at keeping their "monoculture" (er young people).

Originally Posted by thewave46

It may not be your cup of tea, but it's culture to someone.

You're right. It ain't my cup of tea. I wouldn't be caught dead in a pickup in a Tim's lot. City, suburb or country.

Originally Posted by thewave46

Or that small-town festivals - even if redneck in scope - kind of did have their charms.

Small town festivals are nice. But still, in my experience just far less lacking in welcome and revelry compared to the average German Dorffest. That local pride is so rare. You can say you're hometown proud. But if your beer is cheap crap from an InBev brand, you're sending a message about what you really think of your town. And that, in my opinion, is the difference in what I've experienced between small towns in Europe, Canada and parts of the US.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by giallo

I don't get that vibe at all in Vancouver. I feel like it's not really appropriate to talk business when meeting new people. Sometimes, it comes off as bragging when all you're really trying to do is let people know what you do. Other times, people come off as guarded, like they don't want you to know what they do. It's really weird.

I was under the impression this was a Vancouver thing, and cities like Toronto, Calgary and Montreal would be a lot more open and friendly when it comes to talking shop, and wanting to get things done.

I haven’t spent much time as an adult in Vancouver but friends from there have told me this. It’s much easier in this regard in Toronto, as is going to a bar and meeting randoms who may end up friends or future connections.

Johannesburg was amazing on this front. I have friends I met at a bar who I talk to on the daily still. It’s a big hustle culture but also very friendly.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by giallo

I don't get that vibe at all in Vancouver. I feel like it's not really appropriate to talk business when meeting new people. Sometimes, it comes off as bragging when all you're really trying to do is let people know what you do. Other times, people come off as guarded, like they don't want you to know what they do. It's really weird.

I was under the impression this was a Vancouver thing, and cities like Toronto, Calgary and Montreal would be a lot more open and friendly when it comes to talking shop, and wanting to get things done.

Montreal also has this strange subculture, where it's sometimes a badge of honour not knowing where your friends work after knowing them for a while. Some would deride Torontonians as shallow and vapid for bringing it up in the meet and greet.

It was a culture shock for our Parisien friends who moved there. Back home in Paris it's the norm to ask and talk about your career/business as an icebreaker.

[thewave46]

Back on topic, I try and close my eyes and think back to a decade ago me, pretending that I suddenly was time warped to 2023 Canada without context. I mean, even the most isolated of expatriates would have had some context as to what happened globally in the meantime, so I'll try and imagine.

Hmmm...

Canada's an angrier, less clean place than in 2013. Problems that were formerly confined to large cities now have made their way to smaller places, that's for certain. Whereas homelessness was previously an urban problem, smaller cities/suburbs now have people standing at traffic lights panhandling. Tents dot places that they didn't before.

The relative apolitical populace is mostly still there, but the angry folks sure are much more brazen. F*** Harper was not really a bumper sticker in '13, but like the "Calvin" (unlicensed knockoff of course) urinating stickers that suddenly appeared one day, they're suddenly here. They also seem to be protesting a lot more than I remember.

Some of the stuff long promised seems closer to fruition, if kind of kludgy in execution. Thinking back to Ottawa of 2010, I recall diesel buses idling at the Rideau Centre and bunching up down Albert and Slater. In a decade and a bit, a whole new transit system, plus some. Maybe not so dramatic a change in most cities, but the Champlain Bridge/transit (REM)/Turcot Interchange look way better in Montreal than they did then. Some cities made leaps in their skylines - certainly higher and glassier than I remember.

Dammit, there's a lot of marijuana stores. Like, I always suspected there were enough high-functioning stoners, but geez.

The loonie in my pocket seems a lot less valuable than it did before, notably so. You want what insane number for rent in podunksville Canada? Like, for a one- or two-bedroom, not a house? A Honda Civic of '12 MSRP (4 door, LX model, automatic) was $18,690. Today, another 5 digit sum is on the price.

Man, even our smaller cities are changing quickly demographically. As in from zero demographic change to a significant differences in a decade.

Parts of cities left for dead previously now have hipster restaurants and the kids have moved in. Even in podunksville. It is good to see previously written-off neighbourhoods reinvigorated, but worried that the motivation behind this may result in unintended consequences long-term.

It's still my Canada, certainly. I get off the airplane in most Canadian cities and Customs doesn't give me a second glance. The cops don't either. It feels like that diner that I loved and maybe too fondly remembered is a little dingier, less great tasting, and busier than I remember, but is trying some interesting fusion dishes to keep relevant.

[theman23]

It is interesting how this thread turned from being initially quite positive with vague but generally effusive tones to the last few pages where its become much more cynical with the focus shifting to the usual gripes.

Personally, I've never actually "lived" outside of the country. I have spent a few weeks at a time working temporarily in other countries (the USA and Australia) and do extended vacations 3-4 times a year. When I was younger, I would always return to the country and feel a sense of relief about returning to the familiar Canadian way of doing things. Now I just mostly just get annoyed about how nothing works the way it used to and how far behind we are compared to the rest of the world. My adult life hasn't been that long, so this is all fairly recent.

[Truenorth00]

^ This stuff was always there. The faults are just more obvious now. I remember my first long trip to London for work, in the mid 2000s, I got an Oyster card. I remember coming back to Canada and lamenting that the TTC still uses tokens and OC Transpo still sold paper tickets. This country abhors progress. And now we've turned a bunch of this stuff into culture war shibboleths. So now we'll see even less progress.....

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I guess. I just find it a tad trite though that this portrayed as something special. Like you can't sit in an F150 in a Tim's lot in any city in Canada. There's nothing really unique about it. But it gets elevated to culture in small towns.

Why Tim's? It's cheap, the operating hours are pretty decent, and these would be people hoisting a few drinks at the watering hole in an era past and driving home. I'll take caffeine as a preferable alternate.

Yeah, it's hick. These aren't people who think much about what 'culture' means in context of their lives. They like what they like, and yeah, it's probably not terribly complex or mindful or refined. You like it or you don't.

Do I think it has much of a future? It's more the dying of the light, but I suspect these guys wouldn't care much about Russell Peters hanging out with them if he liked snowmobiles, the Leafs, and worked as an auto body guy. 'He's a good guy, he patched up the rotted rockers on my wife's CR-V', they might say, if he honestly fit in with them.

The 'locals' but with different skin tone, so goes the big-idea dream.

[niwell]

If you have a choice between solving a culture war issue and a real problem guess which seems easier? North America in general has a real problem with this. Of course if the real issues were solved the culture war ones wouldn’t be a prescient.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by niwell

If you have a choice between solving a culture war issue and a real problem guess which seems easier? North America in general has a real problem with this. Of course if the real issues were solved the culture war ones wouldn’t be a prescient.

It's alarming how the most mundane of things can invoke such intense culture war BS. It's exhausting. And every single time, both sides think they're the ones rising above it and it's the other guys making it a culture war.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by niwell

I haven’t spent much time as an adult in Vancouver but friends from there have told me this. It’s much easier in this regard in Toronto, as is going to a bar and meeting randoms who may end up friends or future connections.

Good to know. Toronto's always been on the map for us if opportunities arise over there.

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Montreal also has this strange subculture, where it's sometimes a badge of honour not knowing where your friends work after knowing them for a while. Some would deride Torontonians as shallow and vapid for bringing it up in the meet and greet.

It was a culture shock for our Parisien friends who moved there. Back home in Paris it's the norm to ask and talk about your career/business as an icebreaker.

That's a good way to summarize this particular quirky cultural trait; people want to meet you for you, not for what you do.
I mean, I get that sort of outlook on life. No one wants to be used by others base on what they have to offer, but that's no way to live.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by giallo

Good to know. Toronto's always been on the map for us if opportunities arise over there.

I would recommend that you wait until late 2025/2026 (at the earliest) when the Stouffville GO RER is projected to be complete, and you can easily take the 15 minute frequency RER from Toronto up to Markham to get your fill of top notch Asian cuisine...in the meantime it's traffic hell just to get there from the 416.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

I would recommend that you wait until late 2025/2026 (at the earliest) when the Stouffville GO RER is projected to be complete, and you can easily take the 15 minute frequency RER from Toronto up to Markham to get your fill of top notch Asian cuisine...in the meantime it's traffic hell just to get there from the 416.

Thanks for the tip. My wife really wants to check out Markham

We visit Richmond biweekly to get our Chinese food fix currently. It's pretty easy to get to from East Van thanks to the 99 bus and Canada Line.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Montreal is still way more diverse than anywhere in Ontario except the GTA and about the same as Ottawa and Hamilton. Even Gatineau is as or more diverse than most other Ontario cities.

I should hope so. It was once the largest city, is the permanent 2nd largest city and Hamilton hasn't officially reached 600k yet

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by p_xavier

What do you bring to old fashion Canadians.

Originally Posted by p_xavier

Why are you in this country?

What in the actual f*** is wrong with you?
The people of Dog River, Saskatchewan would find you offensive

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Canada vs. Europe to me is best described as "abundance". The US is even more extreme.

The lifestyle is increasingly fading to that one for the rich in Ontario, but for 2 generations the idea of middle class households was that they had enough money for a detached home AND a cottage or weekend getaway spot.

My Family has had a cottage in Haliburton since the 1950's - we've had European guests up over the years who sit on the dock and just marvel in the abundance of it all. Many Canadians own a 2,000sf home, 2-3 cars, a cottage, or a boat, or a sports car.. it goes on.

Middle class, even upper middle class, life in Europe is a decent apartment or rowhouse, and 1 car. Coming to Canada and seeing the sheer excess and abundance of the land, the lifestyles.. it's different.

And I feel it when I come home from a vacation in Europe or wherever. I toured the UK and Scotland for a few weeks in May, met some extended family, saw a good chunk of Scotland. As beautiful as it is, you see how more modest materially most people lives are. Land is scarce, and while nobody is really wanting for much, the level of abundance in the economy is just clearly so much less.

I enjoy that european lifestyle in many ways, as I'm sure many on this board do too - but there is something comforting about coming home to Canada, getting in your car at the airport and driving back to my detached home where you have a spare bedroom, 2 cars in the driveway, many having access to a summer vacation property... etc. It's obviously not the universal Canadian experience, but it's far more common here than elsewhere in the world.

The US can be even more extreme in this regard than Canada in many ways. Median lifestyles are even more "abundant" - but give up even more european style culture to achieve it as well.

Unfortunately I think this is where Canada's value proposition is starting to fall apart more recently for younger Canadians and new immigrants: now we get European-level material comforts, without the beautiful European cities, culture, or vacation time.

Originally Posted by hipster duck

The only other country I've lived in is the United States, for 2 years, for post-grad studies. During that time, I came home a lot, so there's not much of a culture shock there.

I can't really speak about Europe more than what I observed superficially as a tourist and through reading books. I can't really speak much about East Asian cultures, although I do know what it's like to be part of the Chinese diaspora visiting the 'mother country'. Needless to say, it's like that episode of the Sopranos where they go to Italy.

Anyway, at least in relation to the US, and to the old, larger countries of Europe (I guess), one thing I appreciate about Canada is that Canadian society isn't very "deep" and is easy to read. I grew up in an immigrant family in a small city that was 95% white and during my time, my parents moved from a predominantly working class neighbourhood to a middle class neighbourhood and finally to an upper middle class neighbourhood when they were at the peak of their careers. If I got dropped in most social situations in just about any class or location setting in English Canada, I think I'd be perceived as an outsider, but not someone who's completely out of touch, and I think I could say enough of "the right things" to at least build some trust by the end of the night.

Related to this, another thing I appreciate about Canada is that society isn't too hierarchical. We do have our elites, and it's true that not everyone is going to end up being the Prime Minister, or the CEO of RBC. But it's a lot flatter than the US, and I imagine a lot of European or Asian countries. Here's an example: a few years ago I worked on a project with a guy who would later do his MBA at Harvard. His boss went to Brock. In the US, there's no way that somebody who's Harvard MBA material reports to a guy who went to SUNY Potsdam. That's just not happening. I thought about this, and I realized that I'm two to three degrees of separation from the Prime Minister all the way down to a recovering addict who lives in a van. And we don't live in a small country like Lithuania or Luxembourg where this might also be true just because of small numbers. When you think about that, that's pretty amazing.

Well said, and this is also perhaps the thing that I most appreciate about Canada. For as much as we might bemoan our lack of a deep-rooted, shared culture & weighty history, it's really a double-edged sword - and this is the bright side of it.

[urbandreamer]

Glengarry, like most of Eastern Ontario, is very segregated: extremely French Canadian working class towns with many apartment complexes vs Scottish middle class towns with tourists from New York State and New England propping up boutiques etc. I'm assuming this forum member is from a French working class background, which explains his view on foreigners. I certainly found towns in the Eastern Townships as segregated from the new Canada as places like Foam Lake or Watrous SK.

If he's Scottish, well, we have culture we just don't brag about it.

It's not the vehicle you drive nor the cafe you drink your coffee at that defines your culture. Eg: a TH feels very different in Napanee vs the Junction, or Trois-Rivières vs Nanaimo.

Culturally, in Canada I feel most at home on Southern Vancouver Island: WASPY, educated, curious, gardening, neat and tidy yet understated. Culture really is more about what isn't said. In Toronto, Rosedale and the Eastern spine of Yonge to Bayview and Leslieville areas.
In the Eastern USA, I love Vermont, New Hampshire and Connecticut. (I love exploring cemeteries wherever I go, and aside from some old Presbyterian and Anglican cemeteries in Quebec and rural Ontario, I absolutely love the understated tasteful tombstones found in New England vs the blingy crap proliferating across Canada. In fact, if I could describe Canada in one word, I'm going to have to agree with my father: "crummy.")

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Wigs

What in the actual fuck is wrong with you?
The people of Dog River, Saskatchewan would find you offensive

Apparently he thinks I'm anti-white.

But really, I just wasn't given the memo that being diabetic is now culture for "old fashion canadians". Apparently, my dislike of Tim's and all manner of generic corporate chains is really hurting his "monocultural" sensitivities. Can you guys fill me in on trends in a more timely manner so we don't have such mix ups again? What's the latest monoculture trends?

[urbandreamer]

Speaking of monoculture, why are all TH owned and staffed by SA? In fact, SA own a vast majority of these generic chain franchises across Canada. SA, like many people, love their sweets and have alarming levels of obesity, heart disease and diabetes. I suspect that you spend so much time online you rarely see the world outside your suburb. I think back to a former boss, of SA descent, who lived in Brampton. He had many sportscars yet had never been to Caledon or Muskoka where great driving roads are in abundance. He always moaned about not fitting in with the white hosers, meanwhile in his freetime he gambled, watched basketball games and drank like crazy. How isn't that fitting in?

[Doady]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Apparently he thinks I'm anti-white.

But really, I just wasn't given the memo that being diabetic is now culture for "old fashion canadians". Apparently, my dislike of Tim's and all manner of generic corporate chains is really hurting his "monocultural" sensitivities. Can you guys fill me in on trends in a more timely manner so we don't have such mix ups again? What's the latest monoculture trends?

He is only one who needs to filled on the latest trends, but maybe better to let the mods handle that. No point arguing with those types of people. You and I were arguing. Get angry with me, and just forget about him.