Cities You Need To Travel To More Than Once To Appreciate

[Razor]

Yes another click bait list courtesy of MSN news feed..I swear the web masters at MSN follow this forum or something.

Anyways, it sucked me in after I logged out of my Hotmail just now, so I thought would share it here..If anything, just to keep with the themes going on here right now.

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/travel/trip...id=mailsignout

[jlousa]

I'd love to see the list of cities that are best to only visit the once. I'm sure there are lots of them that are great the first time around but once you spend more time there the charm wears off quick.

[ChargerCarl]

For LA I think you have to actually live there. It can be difficult to appreciate as a tourist given how difficult it is to get around. It's a city that requires a lot of local knowledge IMO.

[Pedestrian]

I probably owe Toronto another chance. I was there in January--it was too cold to spend much time walking around and I wasn't there long enough to explore much plus unlike most American cities, I really didn't even know where to begin. My impression was of just a big generic city without much charm.

I should note the I am somebody who loves Vancouver, have been there several times and would happily go back so it isn't a Canadian thing. But Vancouver does have more benign weather--it rains of course, but it's rarely too cold to enjoy a nice outdoor exploratory stroll and there are plenty of places to do that.

Might as well say I was in Toronto having taken the Canadian transcontinental train from Vancouver and was intending to move on back to the US and NYC so I couldn't help comparing Toronto to NY in my head.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

I probably owe Toronto another chance. I was there in January--it was too cold to spend much time walking around and I wasn't there long enough to explore much plus unlike most American cities, I really didn't even know where to begin. My impression was of just a big generic city without much charm.

Toronto can be pretty tricky if you don't know where to go - all of the best stuff is in the neighbourhoods outside of the downtown core. It requires either some research or knowing someone with the knowledge of where to go. Downtown is pretty standard fare without much worth mentioning to a visitor.

I've run into tourists at some fairly obscure craft beer bars and chatted about how they were glad they made it our of the downtown core.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by niwell

Toronto can be pretty tricky if you don't know where to go - all of the best stuff is in the neighbourhoods outside of the downtown core. It requires either some research or knowing someone with the knowledge of where to go. Downtown is pretty standard fare without much worth mentioning to a visitor.

I've run into tourists at some fairly obscure craft beer bars and chatted about how they were glad they made it our of the downtown core.

i've never been to toronto but i imagine it to be much like chicago like that (only in the sense that downtown is somewhat sterile/annoyingly touristy and the neighborhoods are the soul of the city). however, not decentralized or multi-nodal anywhere close to the scale of los angeles, or whatever.

also, i don't know how i've never been to toronto, that seems shocking to me.

[a very long weekend]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

I probably owe Toronto another chance. My impression was of just a big generic city without much charm.

this is my assessment of toronto too. very generic, not particularly attractive, a very high number of chain stores, much more auto-oriented than i expected and overall quite forgettable. even in the non-CBD neighborhoods i explored (annex, west queen, danforth, distillery), the cool shops, restaurants and bars are set to a pretty standard midwest taste and aesthetic, lots of burgers and beer. after falling passionately in love with montreal, i was ultra disappointed to discover what toronto is about. if there's something happening there, i think it'd take multiple visits to discover it.

[softee]

Originally Posted by a very long weekend

this is my assessment of toronto too. very generic, not particularly attractive, a very high number of chain stores, much more auto-oriented than i expected and overall quite forgettable. even in the non-CBD neighborhoods i explored (annex, west queen, danforth, distillery), the cool shops, restaurants and bars are set to a pretty standard midwest taste and aesthetic, lots of burgers and beer. after falling passionately in love with montreal, i was ultra disappointed to discover what toronto is about. if there's something happening there, i think it'd take multiple visits to discover it.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but your description of Toronto bears little if any resemblance to the Toronto I know. Weird how that happens.

[dktshb]

To sound like a broken record Los Angeles takes a while to figure out. To have an amazing vacation here requires a bit of research. The best way to have an outstanding trip is if you're coming to visit someone or know someone who lives here. I would definitely recommend staying Downtown and take advantage of the transit lines for getting around.

[a very long weekend]

Originally Posted by softee

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but your description of Toronto bears little if any resemblance to the Toronto I know. Weird how that happens.

i think one major problem is that you have very little retail off the high streets, so that neighborhoods feel quite dead, particularly with those long blocks. also, the chain shops are one thing, but even weirder is that it seems like even restaurants with just one location are aiming to become chains, so they have that same sterile aesthetic, mediocre offerings and culture. so that even if you put in SF-style formula retail controls, that bland culture would still persist.

this has happened all over midtown manhattan too, and i think that in toronto like up there, it's down to the high cost of commercial leases. it just forces you to go for lowest common denominator/mass culture in order to post your number every month. the obvious move is for the city of toronto to require much more ground floor commercial in new construction, i'm thinking in pretty much every new building, no matter where. flood the market with commercial space, or even just space sufficient to match increase in population density, and the pressures on commercial lease values decrease, and then you'll start to see more interesting shops and restaurants come in.

so even without addressing your architecture problem, the curb cuts every few meters, the long blocks, etc. you could get a lot done by just forcing developers to include commercial space on the ground floor.

[MonkeyRonin]

I recall a recent thread asking "which cities were you unimpressed with?", and seeing London brought up a lot. Which is understandable - for what was a long time the largest and most important city in the world, it doesn't have the sense of grandeur that jumps out at you like it does in other European capitals. It's kind of understated and can even be downright ugly in the centre of town - but give it more time and the depth and scale of the place becomes a little more apparent.

Originally Posted by a very long weekend

this is my assessment of toronto too. very generic, not particularly attractive, a very high number of chain stores, much more auto-oriented than i expected and overall quite forgettable. even in the non-CBD neighborhoods i explored (annex, west queen, danforth, distillery), the cool shops, restaurants and bars are set to a pretty standard midwest taste and aesthetic, lots of burgers and beer. after falling passionately in love with montreal, i was ultra disappointed to discover what toronto is about. if there's something happening there, i think it'd take multiple visits to discover it.

Everyone's experience is different I guess, but this is one of the more bizarre assessments of Toronto I've read. The vast majority of retailers (even in the core, and even in newer, higher-rent buildings) are independents, and I can't think of a North American city besides New York and maybe Montreal that's less auto-oriented.

And midwestern burgers and beer? I don't even know where to start with that one... it's too bad if you stumbled upon a couple boring places, but the eating, drinking, and shopping options are one of the best parts of the city (and not particularly hard to find). I'll grant you that it's not the best looking place and I totally understand its charms aren't for everybody, but that's one thing you couldn't be more wrong about.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

I recall a recent thread asking "which cities were you unimpressed with?", and seeing London brought up a lot. Which is understandable - for what was a long time the largest and most important city in the world, it doesn't have the sense of grandeur that jumps out at you like it does in other European capitals. It's kind of understated and can even be downright ugly in the centre of town - but give it more time and the depth and scale of the place becomes a little more apparent.

What always shocks me the most about London is the standard of housing. Sure there are gorgeous residences but the type of housing regular Londoners live in is not what you expect in a city that was once the world's biggest city and centre of an empire.

When my mother moved to London from Finland in the 60s she was absolutely appalled at how people lived. Things have improved a ton since then but it's still a couple notches below what average income people in New World nations are accustomed to.

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Everyone's experience is different I guess, but this is one of the more bizarre assessments of Toronto I've read. The vast majority of retailers (even in the core, and even in newer, higher-rent buildings) are independents, and I can't think of a North American city besides New York and maybe Montreal that's less auto-oriented.

And midwestern burgers and beer? I don't even know where to start with that one... it's too bad if you stumbled upon a couple boring places, but the eating, drinking, and shopping options are one of the best parts of the city (and not particularly hard to find). I'll grant you that it's not the best looking place and I totally understand its charms aren't for everybody, but that's one thing you couldn't be more wrong about.

I found his viewpoint bizarre as well. There are cities that impress at first sight but start looking worse the longer one stays there. They have 200 year old palaces, cobble stone streets, and world famous sights. When you live in a place for 6 months or more you start noticing the rest.

Then there are cities that lack a Louvre or Big Ben so fail to dazzle right away. Toronto falls into this category. I admit to not liking Toronto the first 3 times I visited (1980, 1989 and 1991). I thought it was ugly and shabby (although this is changing) with no show stoppers other than the CN Tower which I also viewed as rather ugly.

The more time I spent in Toronto the more I liked it. You start appreciating things like the ravines/ravine houses, Centre Island, the waterfront, the row houses, old neighbourhoods that seem to go on forever, the knock your socks off diversity, the food, the vibrancy, the energy, a gelling Toronto culture that looks destined to explode on to the world stage, the entertainment options, and its giddy pace of growth.

Toronto is now my favourite city on earth and never ever find myself bored with the constant change and collision of cultures. Toronto might not have the best museum in the world, or the best park in the world, but it does so many things very very well. What strikes me about Toronto that isn't initially obivious is that anything and everything is on offer... even things you wouldn't expect to find like great beaches. It's a city for everyone and every income level. I even love the CN Tower now. It's fantastic and the best thing Toronto ever built.

I suppose Toronto doesn't have a mountain and if I want vineyards I have to drive an hour. No place is perfect I guess.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by ChargerCarl

For LA I think you have to actually live there. It can be difficult to appreciate as a tourist given how difficult it is to get around. It's a city that requires a lot of local knowledge IMO.

That would make sense

[Razor]

For myself, NYC is the perfect example of a city that I need to go back to.
The next time strategically hitting places we missed the first time around.

Because I was the only adult dude amongst 3 ladies and an autistic son of one of the ladies (ya it sucked), That particular extended long weekend was all about Canal street, Macy's, Times square and shopping. I did bring the kid to the Nintendo store though..Made him happy, and he was no trouble really.

Okay the harbour cruise was cool, and ditto for the bus tour of Brooklyn, but I just wasn't mentally prepared for the lack of public washrooms and personal space on Time's square. I needed to hug a fire hydrant to take a pic or tie my shoe. I should of known it was going to be like that, but it never it never entered my mind before our trip.

I owe it a second visit, but perhaps with just my wife and a written agreement on dialing back on the shopping, no Statue, and hitting more museums and non chain restaurants next time around. There's just so much to see in NYC, that you really need to break it up and go more then once.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by Razor

For myself, NYC is the perfect example of a city that I need to go back to.
The next time strategically hitting places we missed the first time around.

Because I was the only adult dude amongst 3 ladies and an autistic son of one of the ladies (ya it sucked), That particular extended long weekend was all about Canal street, Macy's, Times square and shopping.

You probably owe it 20 visits but that aside, go by yourself or with another adult, buy a Metrocard, a subway map and a Zagat guide and just GO (since you're Canadian, a good transit guide was one thing that would have made my visit to Toronto a lot better--there are many different guides for New York, on and off line). Try to visit all 5 burroughs (or at least the 4 conneted by subway) but with a destination in mind. I'm a food tourist so my desination is usually a top-rated restaurant, but yours could be the beach and Coney Island, the Bronx's Little Italy (which is better than Manhattan's), trendy parts of Brooklyn--whatever strikes your fancy. Outside Manhattan the subway frequently becomes an "El" so you can see a lot of the city but regardless, just learning how to use the thing and getting around teaches you about the city.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

You probably owe it 20 visits but that aside, go by yourself or with another adult, buy a Metrocard, a subway map and a Zagat guide and just GO (since you're Canadian, a good transit guide was one thing that would have made my visit to Toronto a lot better--there are many different guides for New York, on and off line). Try to visit all 5 burroughs (or at least the 4 conneted by subway) but with a destination in mind. I'm a food tourist so my desination is usually a top-rated restaurant, but yours could be the beach and Coney Island, the Bronx's Little Italy (which is better than Manhattan's), trendy parts of Brooklyn--whatever strikes your fancy. Outside Manhattan the subway frequently becomes an "El" so you can see a lot of the city but regardless, just learning how to use the thing and getting around teaches you about the city.

Thanks! Yup looking forward to going back.

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by ChargerCarl

For LA I think you have to actually live there. It can be difficult to appreciate as a tourist given how difficult it is to get around. It's a city that requires a lot of local knowledge IMO.

I've been to LA just for a week, but with someone who knew the city very well. It was a trip with a very full schedule, but I got to appreciate the many faces of the city, from the Hollywood Hills to Venice beach, from downtown to Beverly Hills. Amazing trip in an amazing city. We rented a car for only a few days and took the subway and buses for the remaining trip. To my surprise, I found that the city was very often very walkable. And with the car, we avoided the highways all the time and didn't find the trafic to be anything but relax. Even though I loved San Francisco (from another trip), I think I would choose to go back to LA first at the first occasion.

[Centropolis]

los angeles has to be the premiere example of this...your trip can be flavored so many different ways by neighborhoods/geography unlike any other us city.

i feel london may kind of be like this too.

[niwell]

^I go to Chicago a lot and yup it's quite similar in that way. I've done the Loop and River North but much prefer the neighbourhoods. There's even a bit of familiarity between Toronto there too - although the scale and makeup of buildings are noticeably different.

If you do come to Toronto shoot me a PM! Will gladly give you tips / go out for some drinks in an interesting area.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by niwell

^I go to Chicago a lot and yup it's quite similar in that way. I've done the Loop and River North but much prefer the neighbourhoods. There's even a bit of familiarity between Toronto there too - although the scale and makeup of buildings are noticeably different.

If you do come to Toronto shoot me a PM! Will gladly give you tips / go out for some drinks in an interesting area.

Being more familiar with Chicago than Toronto, I know there are some attractions in the Loop such as culture, entertainment ("Broadway" type shows, opera, symphony), at least one premier museum (Art Institute) and one restaurant that's a big draw for me (the Berghoff--I love German food)). I perhaps owe my personal appreciation of impressionist art to seeing the Art Institute's jaw-dropping collection which is not something I can say about any other type of art or museum (and I grew up in DC attending the National Gallery). But the times I've been to Chicago, certainly I've gotten away from the Loop to Wrigleyville and so on. Such places ARE key to appreciating the city. But I'll repeat, one thing that made it possible for me to explore the north side neighborhoods is a pretty good transit map.