How did American core cities survive the 90's?

[dubu]

cities in america would be real nice if you took away the suburbs. no one would live there because it would cost too much.

[Jasoncw]

I don't think cities have truly recovered.

Right now cities are places where only certain types of people live. It's mostly minorities, young professionals, and poor people. It's overwhelmingly Democratic. When millenials with school aged children live in cities they're almost always very consciously doing so on purpose.

When you have middle class non-minority families, with kids, of all political parties, going to public schools, buying homes in cities, using the normal home-buying metrics (cost, size, commute, and not "urban lifestyle" or "diversity" etc.), and no one thinks it's strange or unusual to do so, then cities have come back. When it's normal for American kids to have transit cards and know the lines that pass by their home, and when this is an American cultural shared experience.

American cities are becoming more prosperous but they're still a niche, rather than being normal places.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Jasoncw

When you have middle class non-minority families, with kids, of all political parties, going to public schools, buying homes in cities, using the normal home-buying metrics (cost, size, commute, and not "urban lifestyle" or "diversity" etc.), and no one thinks it's strange or unusual to do so, then cities have come back. When it's normal for American kids to have transit cards and know the lines that pass by their home, and when this is an American cultural shared experience.

I don't equate that to lack of recovery but a growing cultural divide. And choices. At least in this country. Middle class conservatives could live in the city if they wanted to. They don't. Cities aren't going to return to their pre-war state where everyone from all stripes lived there because there was no alternative. Besides the country. Suburbia is more inline with many for what they can offer that cities do not and vice versa for those who prefer urban living over the 'burbs.

[Steely Dan]

^^ i know plenty of "middle-class non-minority" people in chicago who are just living their lives, raising their kids, going to work everyday, being perennially disappointed by the bears, etc.

they all seem like pretty fucking normal people to me.

chicago is A LOT more than just lincoln park or englewood; there's a shit ton of middle class gray in this city too.

Originally Posted by Jasoncw

When millenials with school aged children live in cities they're almost always very consciously doing so on purpose.

anyone who lives anywhere without consciously doing so is an idiot, particularly if you're in the home buying game.

for most american families that own a home, their home is the single biggest asset they have.

to not make such an important decision "consciously, on purpose" would be egregiously irresponsible.

[Crawford]

Even in Europe, "average people" aren't buying homes in center cities. They live in suburban or rural settings and mostly drive everywhere, like in the U.S.

I don't see why center cities have to have a cross-section of America, as if San Francisco or wherever isn't fully "vital" unless it has a redneck neighborhood or something.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by Jasoncw

I don't think cities have truly recovered.

Right now cities are places where only certain types of people live. It's mostly minorities, young professionals, and poor people. It's overwhelmingly Democratic. When millenials with school aged children live in cities they're almost always very consciously doing so on purpose.

When you have middle class non-minority families, with kids, of all political parties, going to public schools, buying homes in cities, using the normal home-buying metrics (cost, size, commute, and not "urban lifestyle" or "diversity" etc.), and no one thinks it's strange or unusual to do so, then cities have come back. When it's normal for American kids to have transit cards and know the lines that pass by their home, and when this is an American cultural shared experience.

American cities are becoming more prosperous but they're still a niche, rather than being normal places.

I don't see that happening anytime soon, especially as modern technology will completely separate where you live from where you work, increasingly the most deciding factor in where people live is lifestyle and budget.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Even in Europe, "average people" aren't buying homes in center cities. They live in suburban or rural settings and mostly drive everywhere, like in the U.S.

I don't see why center cities have to have a cross-section of America, as if San Francisco or wherever isn't fully "vital" unless it has a redneck neighborhood or something.

We have a couple of redneck suburbs and, if that isn't enough, we have me. I'm the town redneck I guess. My apartment is the "redneck neighborhood".

[MonkeyRonin]

Yeah, that's a bit of an odd metric. A place like Houston has a much greater political and income diversity and more middle-class home owning families, but its core is certainly not as healthy as that of wealthy, Democrat New York or San Francisco or wherever.

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by Jasoncw

I don't think cities have truly recovered.

Right now cities are places where only certain types of people live. It's mostly minorities, young professionals, and poor people. It's overwhelmingly Democratic. When millenials with school aged children live in cities they're almost always very consciously doing so on purpose.

When you have middle class non-minority families, with kids, of all political parties, going to public schools, buying homes in cities, using the normal home-buying metrics (cost, size, commute, and not "urban lifestyle" or "diversity" etc.), and no one thinks it's strange or unusual to do so, then cities have come back. When it's normal for American kids to have transit cards and know the lines that pass by their home, and when this is an American cultural shared experience.

American cities are becoming more prosperous but they're still a niche, rather than being normal places.

Good point.

For this to happen, support charter schools.

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Yeah, that's a bit of an odd metric. A place like Houston has a much greater political and income diversity and more middle-class home owning families, but its core is certainly not as healthy as that of wealthy, Democrat New York or San Francisco or wherever.

It's plenty healthy. Houston and Dallas especially are filling in parking lots with mid rises at a rapid clip.

But there is no foreign investor class paying up for one bedroom condos in downtown Houston. Arguably this type of growth is the anomaly, funded as it is by investment of foreign capital.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Yeah, that's a bit of an odd metric. A place like Houston has a much greater political and income diversity and more middle-class home owning families, but its core is certainly not as healthy as that of wealthy, Democrat New York or San Francisco or wherever.

Houston is very healthy but its historically been decentralized and its core is just now playing catch up.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

It's plenty healthy. Houston and Dallas especially are filling in parking lots with mid rises at a rapid clip.

But there is no foreign investor class paying up for one bedroom condos in downtown Houston. Arguably this type of growth is the anomaly, funded as it is by investment of foreign capital.

I wish there was a way to funnel the foreign investment into commercial and residential REIT's instead of letting them cause housing bubbles in submarkets like Manhattan, San Francisco and Vancouver.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by JManc

Houston is very healthy but its historically been decentralized and its core is just now playing catch up.

The story of all sunbelt and western cities. besides the old ports on the pacific coast.

[NiHao]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

It's plenty healthy. Houston and Dallas especially are filling in parking lots with mid rises at a rapid clip.

But there is no foreign investor class paying up for one bedroom condos in downtown Houston. Arguably this type of growth is the anomaly, funded as it is by investment of foreign capital.

Houston needs its federal flood bailout money cut off.

[NiHao]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

Good point.

For this to happen, support charter schools.

Fuck that all to hell. Parasitic companies sucking up tax dollars.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Obadno

I wish there was a way to funnel the foreign investment into commercial and residential REIT's instead of letting them cause housing bubbles in submarkets like Manhattan, San Francisco and Vancouver.

That makes no sense, because foreign investment has little to do with domestic housing costs.

Places like NYC and SF are expensive because of domestic demand. Outsize foreign investor interest is a reaction to, not cause of, strong market conditions.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

For this to happen, support charter schools.

You mean like Detroit? Michigan is, by far, the most pro-charter state in the U.S., with basically a no limits, total free-for-all.

And Detroit is just sooo desirable to the middle class, because of education, of course. Michigan's education system has basically turned the state into Michissippi.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Even in Europe, "average people" aren't buying homes in center cities. They live in suburban or rural settings and mostly drive everywhere, like in the U.S.

That really varies depending upon the country.

In Germany and Scandinavia, suburban neighborhoods pretty much look like they do here, with detached single-family homes. The neighborhoods are a little denser and less autocentric - more like prewar suburbia - but they're still recognizable as suburbs.

The UK's "suburbia" is mostly semi-attached homes with some rowhouses and a few single-family homes mixed in. It basically feels like Northeast Philly writ large.

In Southern Europe, nothing resembling a suburb really exists. In Spain even people in rural areas tend to live in apartment buildings.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by Crawford

That makes no sense, because foreign investment has little to do with domestic housing costs.

Places like NYC and SF are expensive because of domestic demand. Outsize foreign investor interest is a reaction to, not cause of, strong market conditions.

I would hope so but I find it hard to believe that there are enough millionaires to account for the hundreds of high value condos under construction just in midtown Manhattan, Vancouver; Costal California etc.

It’s not adding up to me

[Jasoncw]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^^ i know plenty of "middle-class non-minority" people in chicago who are just living their lives, raising their kids, going to work everyday, being perennially disappointed by the bears, etc.

they all seem like pretty fucking normal people to me.

chicago is A LOT more than just lincoln park or englewood; there's a shit ton of middle class gray in this city too.

I'd like you to educate me about these vast areas of Chicago where the public schools are good, there's no crime, where practically every middle school kid has their own transit card and knows the routes by their home, where kids ride transit unattended to go to cool hangout spots, where no one bats an eye if a household doesn't own a car, where old buildings are just thought of as being normal buildings and not as novel things that need protection. Where there's chain restaurants and everyone eats at them because no one has strong opinions about whether it's a chain or an independent restaurant.

And then you need to explain to me that suburban Chicagoans feel the same way about the neighborhoods that you're talking about, and that they don't really view any distinction between the two. And then you need to explain to me how this is something that is typical all across America.

anyone who lives anywhere without consciously doing so is an idiot, particularly if you're in the home buying game.

for most american families that own a home, their home is the single biggest asset they have.

to not make such an important decision "consciously, on purpose" would be egregiously irresponsible.

When millenial families move to cities it's a values statement. They aren't looking at urban homes and suburban homes equally and unaffectedly. They want to live "in the city". You ask them why and they'll say things like "density" "diversity". They probably follow urbanism related social media accounts. They probably know who Jane Jacobs is.

When everyone else is buying a home they're just looking at listings and neighborhoods and none of these things even cross their minds. In the suburbs when someone buys the ranch house next to yours you don't automatically know what political party they are. It's not this big expression of your identity and it's not part of the culture wars, it's just a nice house that you think will be good for raising your family in.


When I think of normalized urbanism I think of places like Japan, where urbanism is entirely mainstream and unremarkable.