Homecoming reflections (TO, Mtl, Hfx)

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

That's because when you respond to a pro-Montreal troll your only tactic is to go as low as he does and lash out at Montreal with the same agressive-defensive tone. I'm a Montrealer, so yes I will defend my city once in a while, even if that makes me an hypocrite in your eyes. At least, I don't defend Montreal by bashing Toronto.

Fair enough, I see your point and I'll try not to lower my tone to their depths, but once in a while they need a kick in the nuts

[PBruge]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

I feel like you stayed on Yonge too much. While it is functionally very important, it's not really a great place to hang out. Shoulda tried Queen, King, Bloor, Ossington...

Don’t forget Roncesvalles. I quite like that hood.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by PBruge

Don’t forget Roncesvalles. I quite like that hood.

Oh yea, there are many neighborhoods I didn't include.

[Rico Rommheim]

Dear god I'm not going to read this thread. It was made for trolls. I'm out.

[MTLskyline]

This thread is giving me the urge to visit Toronto again. It's been at least 5 years and it's somewhere I always enjoyed visiting.

Curious, what parts of Toronto have changed the most in the last 5 years (and the last 20)? What areas have improved the most? Are there any areas that have deteriorated? Presumably the areas that stayed more or less the same are the sidestreets in some of the older neighbourhoods.

[MonkeyRonin]

I've been following this urban development thing in Toronto for 13 or so years now, and there's always been the feeling that when the city comes out of its hibernation every spring, things just get even better from where they left off. The streets get busier, gaps in the urban fabric are filled in, new towers shoot up, public spaces are improved, the quality of design gets better, there are more and more great restaurants and bars, new festivals, more to do, better shops, the people become more diverse, more stylish, more urbane, and the city as a whole becomes more urban, lively, and interesting.

It's a palpable, year-to-year improvement.

It's gotten to the point in recent years though - while still on an overall positive trajectory - that all this growth and change is starting to show some of its downsides. It's no longer just parking lots and car dealerships making way for condo towers now - some decent old "character" buildings are being lost as well; along with many old quintessentially Torontonian landmarks shutting down, music venues closing, people being priced out, and the amount of new density putting a strain on infrastructure & amenities. Still, it's exciting to see the city change - and much of the old Toronto that I love quietly soldiers on out of the spotlight anyway.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

Not a slight on Gatineau! My gf wants to move to ottawa in the next 5 years and I will feel the same way, I’m sure.
.

No offence taken. Gatineau is a good place to live (especially if you have kids) but it totally sucks from an urbanite's perspective.

The fact that Ottawa is just across the river does help a bit of course.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

I feel like you stayed on Yonge too much. While it is functionally very important, it's not really a great place to hang out. Shoulda tried Queen, King, Bloor, Ossington...

No I didn't stay on Yonge that much, and went to a couple of those areas you mentioned. And some others.

But Yonge is still the main street in the city. Almost all of your visitors go there at least once.

As I mentioned it is already a lot better than even just a few years ago.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Interestingly enough, I moved back to Toronto 2 months ago. I grew up in the city (as well as some years in Mississauga), and I was away from the area for 10 years. I've only visited Montreal a few times, so I can't do much comparing.

I don't really know how to feel about it subjectively because I've always had this longing to come back "home", but also anticipated (and now realize) that "home" is an abstraction, not just the physical geography. It's the time period, how you were at that time, the people you knew then, your life circumstances, family, etc.

Objectively, Toronto has gotten better in every way. The skyline is incredible; the food scene is great, the bar scene is great, music scene is great; some very interesting parks; arterial corridors like Queen, King and Bloor are full of life; transit has gotten better; the city feels very safe; lots of young people, diverse... it's awesome.

Some of the bad things remain, though:

- the waterfront still feels separate from the city because of the rail line and Gardiner. Tear down the Gardiner and build an extended version of rail deck park.

- pay is low relative to other cities, especially in the Anglosphere like the US, Australia and London.

- weather can be harsh. Hot n humid summers, freezing winters.

- some of the public realm is still pretty shabby, although sometimes that's charming in its own way because it is a city that is clearly continuing to rapidly change and grow so that is to be expected.

- public transit needs major upgrades. DRL needs to happen yesterday.

- rents are crazy.

- I'm scared to ride a bike on the streets here.

When I visit Montreal, I feel like some of the things you complained about kind of add to its bohemian laid back feel. It's like people are too busy relaxing and enjoying life to care about fixing the potholes.

This is a pretty good post and a pretty good list.

Most of them Toronto should be able to resolve in the coming years without too much difficulty, though it will cost $$$. Thankfully you're up to your eyeballs in money. Or at least that's what Mistercorporate says!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Were Saint-Laurent and Saint-Denis healthy it would be different. Twenty years ago, Saint-L was about 90% of Queen, but now it's about 40%.

.)

I spent an afternoon on St-Laurent in May when it started to get warm and it certainly wasn't empty. It was actually pretty much an endless stream of people on either side of the street. Not a crush of course but probably 50% of what you'd see on Ste-Catherine on a similar afternoon.

This was the stretch between roughly Sherbrooke and Mont-Royal.

Not sure how it compares to Queen, though. Likely quite a bit shorter I suppose.

St-Denis is not as busy as it once was but it's hardly been empty when I've been there this year. Hopefully it will rebound after the shock of the construction. It's definitely a nicer street than Queen in terms of architecture so when it gets its mojo back it won't give anything up to it except length IMO.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

I wouldn't be surprised if Toronto has a little more chain retail than Montreal, and it's usually the starting point of any global brand launching in Canada; but I don't think it's fair or accurate to characterize it by those either.

There was a study done a couple years back which found that something like 70% of new retail downtown was non-chain (and that 30% includes the usual banks & drug stores that you'd find anywhere in Canada). This is a city that is still overwhelmingly not "corporatist and chain-oriented".

It's a bit like calling Shanghai a high-rise city and Hong Kong a low-rise one, because, well it doesn't have quite as many tens of thousands of towers.

.

Sorry, it still feels pretty corporatist. I mean, that ethos is a huge part of what made the city the behemoth that it has become.

And you get more chains because you're the biggest wealthiest city in the country. Smaller cities (even fairly large ones like Montreal) get them less or later because they're seen as less lucrative and less attractive markets.

This is not necessarily a bad thing, but you can't have 100% of your cake and eat 100% of it too.

The same chains selling the same stuff is a global trend in megacities, as you probably know. Toronto is not unique in this respect. Montreal as a more marginal market is a bit more on the back end of the trend.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Most of them Toronto should be able to resolve in the coming years without too much difficulty, though it will cost $$$.

I hope they do get resolved but I am much less sanguine about this. I remember when the Sheppard line opened in Toronto, 16 years ago. The difference between the 2002 subway map and the 2018 subway map is that 6 stations got added to the Yonge-University line. During this period, the metropolitan area's population grew by 1.2 million. That was under provincial Liberals by the way, and Ontario's now back under the PCs again.

The Toronto stuff is weird because on the one hand we have people saying "I hope Toronto will one day be as good as Chicago circa 2018" and on the other hand we have people spinning stories about the urbanism singularity that sound like fever dreams that should somehow involve Elon Musk.

The Chicago thing is overly modest in a bunch of ways. US cities have a different history and culture. Aside from New York, none of them are the primary business hubs of a country like Toronto is. Toronto is transitioning from what you might think of as a third tier city to a kind of second tier plus city, and Canada never really had one of these before.

But then on the other hand I think people exaggerate what the city's growth and development has been like, or come up with unlikely stories about how development will somehow suddenly diverge from the track record of the past 18 years. Toronto hasn't seen much growth in public amenities and its private development has been driven by a housing and credit bubble that has severely eroded affordability. The huge boom in downtown condos exists partly because of poor transportation to the rest of the metro area. We don't know if Toronto is like New York in 1920 or New York in 1929.

That assessment's not anti-Toronto, it's just my take on the situation. If the city were building tons of transit, fixing up public spaces, and maintaining housing affordability and general standard of living then I would be singing its praises.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

It's gotten to the point in recent years though - while still on an overall positive trajectory - that all this growth and change is starting to show some of its downsides. It's no longer just parking lots and car dealerships making way for condo towers now - some decent old "character" buildings are being lost as well; along with many old quintessentially Torontonian landmarks shutting down, music venues closing, people being priced out, and the amount of new density putting a strain on infrastructure & amenities. Still, it's exciting to see the city change - and much of the old Toronto that I love quietly soldiers on out of the spotlight anyway.

This won't be a surprise to a Torontonian but on my recent visit transportation was very challenging at times. We've travelled quite a bit on this planet and while I don't think Toronto is the worst I've seen (not even close in fact), getting around was not always pleasant (or even tolerable) and prevented us from doing more in several instances.

I am sure there are other aspects of life in the city that are strained due to the high population growth and lack of corresponding investments, and that residents feel but visitors do not.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

The Toronto stuff is weird because on the one hand we have people saying "I hope Toronto will one day be as good as Chicago circa 2018" and on the other hand we have people spinning stories about the urbanism singularity that sound like fever dreams that should somehow involve Elon Musk.
.

Yeah. It's not everyone thankfully but more than one person on here sounds a bit like a teenaged boy who's just had sex for the first time, and who thinks he invented the female orgasm in the process.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

But then on the other hand I think people exaggerate what the city's growth and development has been like, or come up with unlikely stories about how development will somehow suddenly diverge from the track record of the past 18 years. Toronto hasn't seen much growth in public amenities and its private development has been driven by a housing and credit bubble that has severely eroded affordability. The huge boom in downtown condos exists partly because of poor transportation to the rest of the metro area. We don't know if Toronto is like New York in 1920 or New York in 1929.

That assessment's not anti-Toronto, it's just my take on the situation. If the city were building tons of transit, fixing up public spaces, and maintaining housing affordability and general standard of living then I would be singing its praises.

I'd say the Canadian business community that has made Toronto its beacon greatly appreciates a historic preference for prudence and hesitancy to spend on "frills". Though I guess things get a bit extreme when critically needed transit improvements and even bike lanes are seen by some as "frills".

[mistercorporate]

Someone123,
Out of curiosity, when did you last visit Toronto?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Someone123,
Out of curiosity, when did you last visit Toronto?

About 9 months ago.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Someone123,
Out of curiosity, when did you last visit Toronto?

If I am reading into this correctly, questions like this come across as very "knee-jerk"-ish.

Kind of like when people tell us we have to live in or have lived in City X in order be allowed to comment on it.

I reread Someone123's post and almost everything in there is stuff that Torontonians themselves complain about all the time about their own city.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If I am reading into this correctly, questions like this come across as very "knee-jerk"-ish.

Kind of like when people tell us we have to live in or have lived in City X in order be allowed to comment on it.

I reread Someone123's post and almost everything in there is stuff that Torontonians themselves complain about all the time about their own city.

I'm not implying anything, was just curious in order to get some context for his impressions.

[rousseau]

I've made my own posts on this forum gushing about Toronto's ever increasing heft and awesomeness. I don't find that part of Mr. Maud's post surprising. But I don't get his Montreal angst, unless the impressions were subjective and narrowly focused on the comparative continuity and quality of street activity for the purpose of enjoying an immersive urban walk.

In which case, I do get it, and the respective characterizations reflect my own impressions of both cities. Though it's relative. As a casual visitor who finds the city enthralling, I have a hard time finding much fault with Montreal, even as I recognize the groovy things happening in Toronto that Montreal lacks.

PBruge/habfanman, your pearl clutching at the mention of anything positive to do with Toronto is toe-curlingly cringeworthy. I know we're all anonymous here, but still, have you no self-respect, man? You should be banned again just for your display in this thread, and your IP address should be ceremoniously exterminated with fire.

For the usual suspects who've done the standard SSP hand-wringing on what was a compelling thread, I offer you a photo from Ithaca New York taken yesterday.