Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

What about the 1000000+ Aboriginal people in Canada? Perhaps we should all speak indigenous languages.

The classic fallback argument in any Canadian language debate: aboriginal languages!

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not being dismissive and argumentative. I just find it surprising that someone as smart and lucid as you is putting forth a sort of ''this sort of thing could never happen in Toronto" argument.

Of course it could.

I'm not saying it could never happen in Toronto. But you seem to be saying that it's just some sort of fluke or luck of the draw that it "happened" to happen in Vancouver.

Chinese to non-Chinese relations in Vancouver taken as a whole appear to be somewhat different from the same in Toronto. My take is that the demographic dynamics might be the reason for this, i.e. that the Chinese presence in Vancouver is proportionally larger than in Toronto. The perceived negative impact of Chinese wealth in Vancouver also seems to be at play in a way that you don't see in Toronto.

Two different situations. In spite of the monolithic similarity of English Canada, there is still room for disparities. But you seem dismissive of the idea.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I'm not saying it could never happen in Toronto. But you seem to be saying that it's just some sort of fluke or luck of the draw that it "happened" to happen in Vancouver.

Chinese to non-Chinese relations in Vancouver taken as a whole appear to be somewhat different from the same in Toronto. My take is that the demographic dynamics might be the reason for this, i.e. that the Chinese presence in Vancouver is proportionally larger than in Toronto. The perceived negative impact of Chinese wealth in Vancouver also seems to be at play in a way that you don't see in Toronto.

.

That could be an explanation but I still don't think that there is a fundamental difference in the broader approach to multiculturalism in both cities. Get this - I only think the approach in Montreal and Quebec is slightly different from the rest of the country as well. They are hardly alien to one another and in many ways Quebec can be quite Canadian as well on this front. More than a lot of people give it credit for (if one thinks that being Canadian in this way is a good thing).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Two different situations. In spite of the monolithic similarity of English Canada, there is still room for disparities. But you seem dismissive of the idea.

I guess I've read too many posts saying Manitoba and Saskatchewan are like foreign countries to each other!

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by lio45

Surely you realize that if the sign is in Chinese only, people who don't speak Chinese can't even know what type of business it is. In practice, it's exactly the same thing as refusing to serve non-Chinese ethnicities.

I'm okay with it, personally, but I can understand why others aren't.

My view (only my personal POV) is that it's YOUR business, so you should have the right to refuse to serve non-Chinese-speakers, or blacks, or Jews, or whoever you want. As was said already in the thread at least a few times -- well, not in those exact words yet, but it's the very same idea -- there are plenty of blacks out there and their money is as green as the whites', so if a given store owner wants to deliberately exclude good customers and do less business, that's their decision and their problem.

But... I can see very very very well why many people will frown on businesses being allowed to refuse -- in practice -- to serve non-Chinese-speakers.

I know we're getting a little off-topic here, but businesses aren't strictly private - they do serve the needs of the public, and those needs aren't always so simple as just "going to another store". If I live in a small town with a single grocery store that refuses to serve my kind, it's more than just a minor inconvenience for me. It would be one thing if it were just the odd racist small business owner, but in practice, societies that allow discrimination of that sort tend not to have that as just a rare eccentricity.




That, and being refused service because of your ethnicity is humiliating and only serves to stoke segregation and racial strife. We forfeit a few individual rights to live in a civil society, like the right to refuse service based on ethnicity, gender, orientation, or otherwise (which I'd say is a lesser right than the right to shop where you want).


But, this is all different from Chinese-only signs. You don't need to be able to read the sign to go into the store and purchase whatever they're selling (some businesses don't even have any sign at all), but memememe76 already covered that quite well.

[esquire]

^ Prohibitions on discrimination are a separate matter and are already well covered by various human rights laws, etc.

No one is suggesting that these Chinese-owned shops and services are refusing to provide service to non-Chinese speakers. The issue is one of signage.

The question is really whether we want to elevate commercial signage in an official language to the same level as existing human rights recognized in law? Personally I say no... if you're Chinese and you have a business that targets a Chinese clientele, I don't see what the point is of forcing the proprietor to include English on their signs. It's a business decision... well within the realm of the private.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That could be an explanation but I still don't think that there is a fundamental difference in the broader approach to multiculturalism in both cities.

No, my experience in both cities has taught me that Vancouver is quite different.

The important thing to recognize about Vancouver is that the city is 1/4 Chinese by ethnicity and people who are ethnic Chinese have penetrated all facets of society and are represented across the entire income and class spectrum. It's next to impossible to find yourself in a large social or business gathering of any sub-culture or industry and not have a Chinese person present in the room here. I mean anything, from a left wing street protest to the audience in an experimental theatre to a corporate boardroom to a depot where homeless people return cans for a living. This is not true in Toronto. It's not that Toronto is worse for immigrant social mobility, it's because Toronto is considerably more polyglot, and there are clear signals that certain ethnicities are more well off than others.

When Vancouverites bemoan mainland Chinese nouveau riche coming in and buying up property, they are quite colour blind. As MetroOne said, many of the people who are doing the complaining are ethnic Chinese themselves; the political party that has suggested putting a tax on "empty condos", COPE, is led by a Chinese woman, Meena Wong, and the party's Chinese name (I assume) is prominently displayed on the website. They don't see "Chinese" people coming in and causing a rift, they see wealthy people from Mainland China. Big difference. In a city like Vancouver, it really should be seen as a class warfare thing, rather than a racism issue. The most prominent person who seems to cry wolf about this issue being 'racism' is a white, male condo developer.

The only analogy I can think of to explain Vancouver's palpable anger toward wealthy mainland Chinese property buyers would be if the Irish Celtic Tiger phenomenon didn't implode (and Ireland also became a corrupt and polluted shithole in the process), and scores of Irish nouveau riche decided that it would be worth investing in St. John's real estate, since it already had a sizable ethnic Irish population, is stable and rather unspoilt, and was just an easy flight from Dublin. Now imagine that the ethnic Irish population of St. John's, who have integrated into all facets of Newfoundland society over centuries, were among the most vociferous in their opposition to Irish money displacing them out of their painted townhouses. That's basically Vancouver.

[LeftCoaster]

Hipster, pleasure to have you on the forum, that is a great synopsis of the very complicated situation in Vancouver.

My $0.02 is that if a business want's to alienate a large percentage of the community by posting only in one language that's their prerogative, and they should be allowed to do so, but I understand why that may rub some people the wrong way.

[MrOilers]

Originally Posted by rousseau

My take is that the demographic dynamics might be the reason for this, i.e. that the Chinese presence in Vancouver is proportionally larger than in Toronto.

Not only that, but it's also a very recent change in Vancouver as compared to other Canadian cities. There has been an extremely rapid influx of Chinese immigrants to Vancouver over last 30 years, whereas other cities it happened more gradually and organically.

For people who lived their entire lives in a typically "Canadian" suburban house in Richmond, for example, the sudden and jarring transformation into heavily populated Chinese highrises and Chinese malls was an alarming and complete culture shock.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by memememe76

No, it's not. If I wanted to buy something at a business with a Chinese-only sign (which, again, is rare!), I can still come in, point at whatever I want, and pay the bill. Prices will likely be in Canadian Dollars.

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

You don't need to be able to read the sign to go into the store and purchase whatever they're selling (some businesses don't even have any sign at all), but memememe76 already covered that quite well.

Well, I would say that you kinda need to have an idea what the store is about otherwise typical shoppers are really unlikely to bother to enter it... or at least so I'd think.

And from my own experience, frankly, if there's only Chinese on the sign, you're unlikely to be able to get service in English anyway. (Or French, or any aboriginal language.) IMO you're fooling yourself if you think that it doesn't clearly mean "I couldn't care less about non-Chinese customers and I'll be fine if none ever sets foot in my store" on the part of the owner.

It's obviously not exactly the same thing as the sign you posted, but while it's not quite a "White people only" sign, it's a "Non-Chinese unwelcome, so much so that we aren't even going to let non-Chinese know what's our line of business" one.

In practice, as I said, the result is going to be similar.

i.e. I believe that

if you went back in time to the segregated south and observed a "White People Only" store for a long time, taking statistics on the customers going in and out, you'd likely have ~100% white, ~0% black;

if you went to Richmond BC and observed a strictly-Chinese-lettering-only store for a long time, taking statistics on the customers going in and out, you'd likely have ~100% Chinese, ~0% non-Chinese.

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by MrOilers

Not only that, but it's also a very recent change in Vancouver as compared to other Canadian cities. There has been an extremely rapid influx of Chinese immigrants to Vancouver over last 30 years, whereas other cities it happened more gradually and organically.

For people who lived their entire lives in a typically "Canadian" suburban house in Richmond, for example, the sudden and jarring transformation into heavily populated Chinese highrises and Chinese malls was an alarming and complete culture shock.

Ya this might be true. And the influx continues with more and more Chinese tourists discovering Vancouver for the first time with the addition of more flights and airlines from Mainland China into Vancouver. But to reiterate there have been Chinese people in Vancouver since the building of the railroad which if I know my history is before "Canada" itself. It was at least before BC joined Canada.

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

http://memebee.com/vancouver/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=53056


http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2013/03/c...-in-vancouver/

The first sign, I suppose, could be in English as well, but it's pretty obvious what it's advertising, given that the brand name is in English.

The second sign would be useless to be in English given that it's advertising a Chinese language real estate listing service, so only the people that are able to understand the sign will actually want to use the service that it's advertising.

To be honest, I don't have a problem with Chinese only signs in Canada. If they want to limit their clientele, that's their business. You see English-only signs occasionally here in Shanghai, too.

[J.OT13]

My two cents: government can and should have language laws that dictate government dealings. Anything and everything governmental in Ottawa is bilingual, as it should be, in Ottawa. But if a private company, no matter where they are located, wants to limit its potential client base by publicising one language only, well that's there problem.

[Steveston]

I live in Richmond, have so for almost my entire life (over 50 years), and have seen the change in "ethnic makeup".

I tend to agree with many of the recent posters, in that if any business feels that they can ignore approximately half the population in a given area, then it's their choice. I don't believe it should be required that businesses post their signs in any particular language, just as they shouldn't be required to serve their customers in any given language.

Official government services are, of course, a different matter, but private business can do as it wishes in this regard, at their own risk.

If I needed a new cell phone, and saw two stores in the same area, one with English and Chinese signage, and one with Chinese-only signage, I'd go to the former.

If it's that important, the market will speak.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is not in any way related to the post of mine that you were responding to.

Sorry, I didn't mean to quote you on that post. Not sure what happened.

[RyLucky]

I might suggest that we avoid comparing the degree to which Canadian cities are inclusive in this forum. You and I know that attitudes and acceptance of others varies widely from neighbourhood to neighbourhood and from individual to individual. Attitudes might even vary from situation to situation in the same individual. I know people who harbour pretty offensive views and have crap intentions to self-reflect on their racist views in Toronto, and I know people who have very good intentions to learn about and respect other cultures in places you might not expect such as small towns. There are people of every race, religion, ability, gender, orientation, and tongue in every city in Canada. All of us have different experiences.

For instance, if you say that Moncton is more progressive than Charlettetown, and I'm from Charlettetown, that might offend me because now you are categorizing my experiences as less-progressive. If I'm a man, I might have a different experience than if I'm a woman. If I'm Chinese, I might have a different experience than if I'm Sudanese. Categorizing the attitudes of thousands of people is almost as irrational as racism itself and not all that different philosophically.

I've heard exactly the same sentiments channeled in Richmond as in Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, Calgary, and Kingston. I've also heard the same opposing sentiments in each. This absolutely could have been a story in another city, and it's natural for people in a city to ask themselves these questions as the place they live changes.

These are about the only conclusions we can be sure of:
-Discrimination is still a problem. Everywhere. It takes even the most open-minded person a lifetime of practice at seeing injustice to grow, become more accepting, become more aware of their assumptions, etc.
-On a global scale, Canada is doing relatively well. Very well, in my opinion. Even the fact that this more-or-less respectful forum can exist is a positive sign.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by The Chemist

The first sign, I suppose, could be in English as well, but it's pretty obvious what it's advertising, given that the brand name is in English.

The second sign would be useless to be in English given that it's advertising a Chinese language real estate listing service, so only the people that are able to understand the sign will actually want to use the service that it's advertising.

To be honest, I don't have a problem with Chinese only signs in Canada. If they want to limit their clientele, that's their business. You see English-only signs occasionally here in Shanghai, too.

It doesn't matter that what is selling isn't relevant to me, this is a matter of principle. There is no way I should be able to speak the de facto language of my city and still not understand what an ad or billboard says. I shouldn't feel like an outsider as a Canadian in Canada.

As far as people claiming that this is all because we hate Chinese people here, this couldn't be further from the truth. While there is admittedly resentment towards rich 18 year olds, it's really not nearly as big a deal as some of you are making it out to be. Growing up in Vancouver, and especially in Richmond, it's virtually impossible to not make Chinese friends so this has nothing to do with racism.

I don't get why it's okay for Quebec to want to protect French from English but it's racist for us here to try and protect English from Chinese.

[VIce]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

It doesn't matter that what is selling isn't relevant to me, this is a matter of principle. There is no way I should be able to speak the de facto language of my city and still not understand what an ad or billboard says. I shouldn't feel like an outsider as a Canadian in Canada.

As far as people claiming that this is all because we hate Chinese people here, this couldn't be further from the truth. While there is admittedly resentment towards rich 18 year olds, it's really not nearly as big a deal as some of you are making it out to be. Growing up in Vancouver, and especially in Richmond, it's virtually impossible to not make Chinese friends so this has nothing to do with racism.

I don't get why it's okay for Quebec to want to protect French from English but it's racist for us here to try and protect English from Chinese.

Google famously puts up cryptic billboards that require advanced mathematics to decypher. You are only told it is Google upon deciphering the billboard, and then you are directed to apply for a job. To the vast majority of people, the billboard may as well be gibberish specifically because Google wants to very discriminating about their audience. How would this be different, from a legal point of view?

[matthew6]

I think we should also ban foreign language songs on the radio.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

I know we're getting a little off-topic here, but businesses aren't strictly private - they do serve the needs of the public, and those needs aren't always so simple as just "going to another store". If I live in a small town with a single grocery store that refuses to serve my kind, it's more than just a minor inconvenience for me. It would be one thing if it were just the odd racist small business owner, but in practice, societies that allow discrimination of that sort tend not to have that as just a rare eccentricity.

I guess we need to make a distinction. There is:

"public" = services for the greater good of society, funded, owned, and operated by the government

"public" = places open to all people, such as private businesses during operating hours

Both should absolutely NOT discriminate, turn away patrons based on who they are, or harass. The first "public" requires (at least) one common language for all users, because these are things to help meet our basic needs and be citizens of our country. The second "public" does not provide essential services like education, health care, social security, or public safety, so it does not need to be held to the same language standards.

While a private business is not the same as a private dwelling, it is my belief that government policy need interfere with the going-ons of private businesses EXCEPT when private interests affect the community, as may or may not be the case with regards to this language issue. I believe that have signage in Chinese has no negative effect on the community, so long as emergency vehicles can find it, the official address is in roman lettering, and public health and safety information is anglicized. The only other exception is that nowhere should written word be deemed hateful or obscene, but I think that's another issue.