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  #21  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2014, 2:57 AM
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Originally Posted by hudkina View Post
Dan Gilbert is a Detroit native. The only reason he has invested in Cleveland is because he owns the Cavaliers. He certainly isn't taking money out of Cleveland for Detroit's benefit. I'm not sure how that would be logical, considering his money ultimately originates from his Detroit operations... He may not be as invested in Cleveland as he is in Detroit, but that's because he is more passionate about his hometown. Having said that, he has done a lot of good for Cleveland for being an outsider.
except i didnt say anything about where he made his first dime, but the rest of what you said is not true. aside from the cavs, where he has been more of a liability via his mouth and where he is now reaping loot from the new nba tv deal, aside from all that, he extracts money from cleveland via the casino and has not even fulfilled his obligation to build it out in full even though it does quite well. so the next bldg he polishes up with ne ohio old ladies gambling money, you're welcome detroit.
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  #22  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2014, 3:39 AM
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He owns a casino in Detroit as well, so what makes you so sure that it's not his Detroit casino money that's paying for these building acquisitions?
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  #23  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2014, 6:59 AM
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Some people are really delusional. Donald Trump has never saved anything, not even himself. Jeesh it's embarrassing how shallow some people's view of world is. They actually believe autobiographies are factual accounts rather than just a cleaver bit of propaganda. I'm not going to be a complete spoiler so I won't talk about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.
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  #24  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2014, 10:52 AM
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thanks for the explanation , makes things much clearer on my end
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  #25  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2014, 3:40 PM
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Dan Gilbert doesn't know a thing about urban planning, and is not saving Detroit.

He's putting lots of money and employees in Detroit, but there is no net gain overall. He's just relocating people from one location to another.
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  #26  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2014, 3:48 PM
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Originally Posted by hudkina View Post
Detroit has a lot of abandoned working-class neighborhoods and industrial ruins. It also has a disparately high crime and poverty rate for a U.S. city. Because of these two factors, many people on this forum and in the nation in general have a particularly negative opinion of the city. (Especially those from what are generally considered prosperous Southern and Western metropolitan areas.) People in the Industrial Midwest and Northeast as well as international cities, tend to have a more reasonable viewpoint of the city.

There are two stories to Detroit. One deals with industrial globalization and the other deals with race and class warfare. Both go hand in hand. In the early part of the 20th century, Detroit went from being a typical midsize Great Lakes industrial center, to being arguably one of the largest and most important urban centers in North America after New York and Chicago thanks to the automobile. Within a few decades the city population ballooned from a few hundred thousand to about 2 million.

Everything was generally fine up until the early post-WWII era. Up until that time anybody who wanted a job could find one. Many of the largest auto plants had upwards of 10,000 workers. During WWII, when much of the city's workforce was off fighting, many of the jobs in Detroit were picked up by women as well as black southerners. Up until the 1920's, Detroit didn't have a black population to speak of. However, through the 30's and 40's, southern blacks migrated into the city so that by the end of WWII the black population of the city was relatively high. During the war, many blacks were able to find work, but once the mostly white WWII fighters returned home, jobs for blacks became scarce. Despite this, southern blacks continued to stream into the city looking for work.

During the 50's, many white city residents began moving to the new suburban neighborhoods popping up just outside the city boundaries, thanks largely to the GI bill. It is also during this time, that many automakers were finding their factories to be outdated for modern auto manufacturing. Because the city lacked the available space for their massive new factories, they too started moving to the suburban fringe. This practice drew Detroit's economic center away from the core.

The decade of the 50's is also well-known for racial strife, and the early rumblings of the civil rights movement. Tensions between whites and blacks were rising, particularly over jobs. When whites returned home from the war, they took back a lot of jobs that blacks had filled during the war. Because of this, black unemployment and poverty skyrocketed. This was especially severe in Detroit thanks to the automation that occurred in the modern auto plants. A modern post-war factory could produce the same number of vehicles with just a few thousand workers, instead of the 10,000+ workers that was the pre-war norm.

By the 60's, most whites began moving to the suburbs to be closer to the new factories that were popping up in cities like Warren, Sterling Heights, Livonia, etc. For the most part, blacks were excluded from moving to the suburbs, and as job opportunities continued to dry up in the city, emotions started boiling over. In 1967, there was a major race riot in the city as blacks rebelled against their status as 2nd-class citizens. While the city's white population had been steadily declining since the early post-war era. The riot as well as the government efforts to redress the racial strife (i.e. forced busing) had the effect of driving even more whites to the suburbs.

By the 70's, the white population made up less than half the population of the city. While many industrial jobs had migrated to the suburbs as early as the 50's, the 70's began seeing downtown corporate jobs head north as well. The 70's also saw a dramatic rise in crime (nationally as well as within the city) due to the economic turmoil and lack of urban job opportunities.

The drug epidemic of the 80's didn't help things, and it is this decade that the city began seeing entire neighborhoods abandoned. Up until the 80's, the inflow of blacks from the south was high enough to stem much of the outflow of whites to the suburbs. However, as economic opportunities in the south rose, and economic turmoil in the north continued, the stream of southern blacks basically stopped. By the 90's, the condition of the city, particularly the early pre-war working-class neighborhoods, was rough. It is also during this decade that the city government began to struggle with providing even the most basic services like public safety, lighting, etc.

The urban revival that began in a lot of cities in the 90's, did have a somewhat positive effect on the city. As the drug epidemic that began in the 80's subsided, crime rates began falling through the early 2000's. However, the continued loss of jobs to both mechanization and globalization ensured that the city continued to lose people. When the Great Recession hit the U.S. and the housing bubble collapsed, many urban blacks that had been excluded from the suburbs (at first due to good old fashioned racism and later housing prices) began seeing a real opportunity to move out of the city. This caused another major collapse in the city population, as while white flight had completely decimated the population of the city, the new phenomenon of black flight heightened the erosion.

The city that had been struggling for decades to stay afloat, basically collapsed as the middle-class black population that had remained loyal to the city moved on to greener suburban pastures. Because of this, as well as the economic effects of the recession, the city became bankrupt and even the traditionally middle-class neighborhoods started seeing blight creep in.

However, while the continued economic downward spiral continues to plague the city to this date, the urban revival that slowly started in the late 90's has allowed the downtown core to see a new light. While the Great Recession caused a few bumps in the road, things have been turning around, particularly in the last five years. While the ravages of the past five decades will continue to haunt the city for decades to come, there is a glimmer of hope for the city that hasn't been felt in decades.
excellent synopsis.
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  #27  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2014, 4:35 PM
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^ agreed.

excellent write-up hudkina! that summary of the city's history should be posted at the start of every single detroit thread on this forum to nip the relentless misconceptions of the city in the bud.
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  #28  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2014, 6:25 PM
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I almost never read posts as long as Hudkina's, but it got so many positive reviews (as per above) that I went ahead and did it.

I agree, Detroit's story is complex and deserves to be studied before one draws too many conclusions. Well written, Hudkina
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  #29  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2014, 8:45 PM
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Originally Posted by hudkina View Post
He owns a casino in Detroit as well, so what makes you so sure that it's not his Detroit casino money that's paying for these building acquisitions?
who said anything about what he owns in detroit? i'm trying to get through to you that he is extracting money from cleveland. cleveland is a big net gain for dan gilbert. so some of detroit's windfall is courtesy of ne ohio. that is all. kapish?
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  #30  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2014, 8:56 PM
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With any industry, much of the profit goes to wherever the headquarters and shareholders are, outside of local outputs like payroll, food dollars, etc. How is this different?
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  #31  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2014, 9:16 PM
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all i know and see is that gilbert is investing $ in downtown detroit and its very visible, which of course is all great. i just don't like that he has expanded himself to cleveland and profited there, given ne ohio's struggles and limited resources. he is obligated to build phase II of his downtown cleveland casino, which is a major all new buildout, but he has no intention of doing so. why? because detroit gets his profits, not cleveland. so far its pretty obvious he intends to ride on his great luck landing lebron+nba tv windfall to try to snooker cleveland out of this major obligation. i hope i'm wrong and he does build out what is supposed to, but it looks highly unlikely to date.
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  #32  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2014, 10:57 PM
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What's also interesting is that behind many struggling urban commercial corridors outside of downtown there is a millionaire trying to save it. Many people are playing the dan gilbert game these days and it's great for america.
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  #33  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2014, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ozone View Post
Some people are really delusional. Donald Trump has never saved anything, not even himself. Jeesh it's embarrassing how shallow some people's view of world is. They actually believe autobiographies are factual accounts rather than just a cleaver bit of propaganda. I'm not going to be a complete spoiler so I won't talk about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.
The one town he absolutely left his mark on is AC, whether he saved it or ruined it is up for discussion.
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  #34  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2014, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
all i know and see is that gilbert is investing $ in downtown detroit and its very visible, which of course is all great. i just don't like that he has expanded himself to cleveland and profited there, given ne ohio's struggles and limited resources. he is obligated to build phase II of his downtown cleveland casino, which is a major all new buildout, but he has no intention of doing so. why? because detroit gets his profits, not cleveland. so far its pretty obvious he intends to ride on his great luck landing lebron+nba tv windfall to try to snooker cleveland out of this major obligation. i hope i'm wrong and he does build out what is supposed to, but it looks highly unlikely to date.
You do have to consider that a HUGE chunk of casino revenue is taxed by the state and local government. I can guarantee much of that revenue is staying put in Cleveland. Also, I remember reading articles about how Gilbert has moved certain jobs into the city of Cleveland, just like he did with Detroit, so it's not like his investment in a Cleveland casino is the massive slap to the face that you think it is.

When my local bank was bought out by a bank from Cleveland, I didn't get all up in arms that some of my money was probably being invested in Cleveland, so I'm not sure why you're so worked up about this...
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  #35  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2014, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Larry King View Post
What's also interesting is that behind many struggling urban commercial corridors outside of downtown there is a millionaire trying to save it. Many people are playing the dan gilbert game these days and it's great for america.
Do you have any examples you can share?
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  #36  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2014, 12:03 AM
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^^^I can name a few examples from my hometown of Jacksonville, FL. If there are millionaire residents trying to look after their city and their neighborhoods/commercial corridors in Jacksonville, there are millionaires in other cities doing the same.

In fact, it is because of these millionaire "involved" residents who are funding park renovations, investing in local businesses (restaurants, independent stores, cultural amenities), and financing small infill projects that Jacksonville's urban streetcar neighborhoods and their commercial corridors are a whole different story than the city's downtown, which has a few of the same millionaires trying to play Dan Gilbert's role to a degree, but to no avail because city leadership literally intentionally stops progress in their backyard (downtown). Anti-progressives
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  #37  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2014, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by hudkina View Post
You do have to consider that a HUGE chunk of casino revenue is taxed by the state and local government. I can guarantee much of that revenue is staying put in Cleveland. Also, I remember reading articles about how Gilbert has moved certain jobs into the city of Cleveland, just like he did with Detroit, so it's not like his investment in a Cleveland casino is the massive slap to the face that you think it is.

When my local bank was bought out by a bank from Cleveland, I didn't get all up in arms that some of my money was probably being invested in Cleveland, so I'm not sure why you're so worked up about this...
again, i dk why you keep bringing up off topic tangents like gilbert's detroit holdings or now taxes and how some cleveland bank relates to you personally, but the fact is gilbert is profiting heavily off of cleveland in a way that is out of proportion to what he is supposed to be investing. your cleveland bank had no legal obligation to develop in detroit, yet in cleveland, in defiance of state law, gilbert has not fulfilled his obligation to build phase II of the casino. do i even have to say this is the more expensive new construction part? most local clevelanders can see he doesnt have the $ and has no intention of doing so. bottom line is while he may be great for downtown detroit, he is not all that, he is just a profiteering carpetbagger in cleveland.
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  #38  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2014, 1:16 AM
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Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
again, i dk why you keep bringing up off topic tangents like gilbert's detroit holdings or now taxes and how some cleveland bank relates to you personally, but the fact is gilbert is profiting heavily off of cleveland in a way that is out of proportion to what he is supposed to be investing. your cleveland bank had no legal obligation to develop in detroit, yet in cleveland, in defiance of state law, gilbert has not fulfilled his obligation to build phase II of the casino. do i even have to say this is the more expensive new construction part? most local clevelanders can see he doesnt have the $ and has no intention of doing so. bottom line is while he may be great for downtown detroit, he is not all that, he is just a profiteering carpetbagger in cleveland.
I doubt he is robbing Peter to pay Paul like you are charging.

For one, Gilbert as an individual high net worth investor with clout likely creates or participates in special purpose entities that individually control each of his real estate holdings. Two, most of these SPEs are likely completely separate from each other.

The bank analogy is actually relevant. If he uses financing, for instance for the Cleveland casino, I highly doubt the lender is going to request that the asset(s) backing one of his other SPEs serves as some sort of collateral, or that another SPE serve as a guarantor. He personally might guaranty the loan, in which case his personal returns/interests from the collection of all of his investments and holdings (from Detroit, Cleveland, wherever, his existing bank accounts, etc etc) that serve as his net worth might be used to guaranty an individual loan. But then he would be separate from his own SPEs as well.

At the end of the day, however he has set up all of his holdings (and whether they are wholly owned by some entity exclusively controlled/owned by Gilbert, or a collection of investors, which is more likely), once earnings have legally and appropriately flowed through an SPE all the way up the chain into Gilbert's bank account, so long as he isn't breaking any lender financial covenants he can use his own money however damn well he pleases. He can find new investments. He can throw additional money into old investments (whether they be in Cleveland or Detroit), etc etc.

Gilbert has set up a legal controlling entity of the casino in Cleveland that is far more removed from his own personal bank accounts than you are giving him credit for. And nobody Fs with major city/state governments without knowing and accounting for all of those repercussions. I give him the full benefit of the doubt that there is no funny business going on, until proven guilty (and your "feelings" are not proof of anything).
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  #39  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2014, 8:59 AM
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Besides having a more diversified economy, the wealthy families (billionaires and millionaires) of Grand Rapids are what saved the city from suffering the same fate that so many Michigan cities have (e.g. DeVos, Van Andel, Meijer, Bissell, Wege, Frey, Royce, Loeks, etc.). I think the new wealth that Gilbert and others brings to Detroit can eventually have a similar impact on the city.
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  #40  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2014, 12:20 PM
Larry King Larry King is offline
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
Do you have any examples you can share?
Domani developers - frankford ave in fishtown

mm partners - girard ave in brewerytown

^ both in philly

I know theres people attempting this in the south bronx and other places though I dont know the names.

Last edited by Larry King; Oct 21, 2014 at 12:42 PM.
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