Is Canadian identity getting stronger or weaker among the younger generation?

[Capsicum]

"Brain drain" of talented, educated or skilled Canadians to the US was a regularly discussed thing up to the 2000s if I recall correctly. It's probably still being discussed when people talk about whether or not Canada matches up to the US in quality of life, economy etc.

I mean, people still discuss whether it's possible for Canada to develop homegrown companies that rival American ones, and/or discuss whether Canada and Canadian cities are on the radar of big American corporations (eg. the Amazon thing that everyone's got threads all about on this forum).

[MonkeyRonin]

Canadians may becoming more assertive & confident in their patriotism, but that, ironically, is probably more a symptom of an increasing tendency to learn American-style patriotism and repurpose it, than it is any likelihood of people living more Canada-centric lives.

Global culture as a whole in converging more than the opposite (with American-derived pop culture of course playing a huge role in that), so I can't say I have high hopes for a Canadian identity bucking that trend and becoming more distinct, even if we gradually become a more influential country.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

"Brain drain" of talented, educated or skilled Canadians to the US was a regularly discussed thing up to the 2000s if I recall correctly. It's probably still being discussed when people talk about whether or not Canada matches up to the US in quality of life, economy etc.

I mean, people still discuss whether it's possible for Canada to develop homegrown companies that rival American ones, and/or discuss whether Canada and Canadian cities are on the radar of big American corporations (eg. the Amazon thing that everyone's got threads all about on this forum).

Canadians have always moved to the U.S. for opportunity regardless of whether times were generally perceived as good or bad down there.

I know progressive minded Canadian pacifists who moved to the U.S. during the W years who were the most adamant critics of the U.S. just a few months before. And maybe still are. But they're still living in the U.S. today AFAIK.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Canadians have always moved to the U.S. for opportunity regardless of whether times were generally perceived as good or bad down there.

I know progressive minded Canadian pacifists who moved to the U.S. during the W years who were the most adamant critics of the U.S. just a few months before. And maybe still are. But they're still living in the U.S. today AFAIK.

I think the Vietnam war was probably the only period in recent history where more Americans went north than Canadians going south.

When it comes to Americans moving to Canada, the Vietnam war era draft dodgers were probably the (modern) wave of migration that had the most contribution in terms of Americans who stayed long-term.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

On the whole, there probably is an increasing sense of Canadian identity mostly because there are fewer and fewer cross border ties with the USA as times move on. In the 1950s & 60s, there was still a sense of brotherhood with the States because of the war effort, and most Canadians also had numerous cousins in the USA from migration south of the border to feed the mills and plants down there. The family relationships to the USA have mostly died off, and the USA has become increasingly politically dissimilar to Canada. I think most Canadians no longer view themselves as the little brothers in this relationship.

I don't know about that - there are fewer Canadian emigrants leaving for the States than in the past, but it's pretty common for anyone of immigrant background to have relatives who went to other countries - most commonly the US. It seems like most people I know have family in some combination of the US, Australia, and/or the UK (aside from the "old country" of course).

Now, how long those connections will last is another matter (like in my case, we've lost touch with my relatives who went to Argentina 50 years ago by this point, but still see our American cousins once or twice a year) - but as long as there remains a steady stream of immigration to both countries, I think it's likely for this occurrence to continue.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Canadians may becoming more assertive & confident in their patriotism, but that, ironically, is probably more a symptom of an increasing tendency to learn American-style patriotism and repurpose it, than it is any likelihood of people living more Canada-centric lives.

Global culture as a whole in converging more than the opposite (with American-derived pop culture of course playing a huge role in that), so I can't say I have high hopes for a Canadian identity bucking that trend and becoming more distinct, even if we gradually become a more influential country.

What about the rise of non-American (or non-western) countries in contributing connections to Canada? The globalization of pop culture is mostly driven by American culture, but with rising influence of places like say the Asia-Pacific, it's conceivable (though I don't know how likely) that Canada might have a distinct culture based on the demographics of its immigrant and ethnic communities.

Canada doesn't really have the equivalent of something as distinctive or influential like the African-American culture or even the British Asian/Caribbean culture but this could form in the future among Canadian homegrown minorities.

For example, I know younger Canadians might be more likely to be familiar with non-western culture (eg. Bollywood, K-pop etc.) though to what extent is it only the immigrants and children of immigrants that maintain this connection vs. people not of that heritage remains to be seen.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

I don't know about that - there are fewer Canadian emigrants leaving for the States than in the past, but it's pretty common for anyone of immigrant background to have relatives who went to other countries - most commonly the US. It seems like most people I know have family in some combination of the US, Australia, and/or the UK (aside from the "old country" of course).

Now, how long those connections will last is another matter (like in my case, we've lost touch with my relatives who went to Argentina 50 years ago by this point, but still see our American cousins once or twice a year) - but as long as there remains a steady stream of immigration to both countries, I think it's likely for this occurrence to continue.

True. Canadians seem really likely to have non-Canadian relatives or have kept in touch with people outside the borders of Canada, within living memory, much more so than Americans in my experience. I think it's the high percentage of not just first generation immigrants but people two to three generations removed from migration.

By comparison, it seems much more common for Americans to only have family in the US and have their entire extended families mostly within their country's borders.

For example, it's much more common for an American to say "I've got family in northern Virginia here, and in Seattle there, and in LA there etc." but not mention non-US locations. It seems like in the US, there's a bigger contrast between recent immigrants who have families overseas or across borders and then the Americans who don't really visit any degree of family relations outside US borders at all.

While in Canada it's much more common to say "I've got family in Toronto here, and in California there and in the UK, Europe/Asia/Caribbean etc."

Just my experience.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Canadians may becoming more assertive & confident in their patriotism, but that, ironically, is probably more a symptom of an increasing tendency to learn American-style patriotism and repurpose it, than it is any likelihood of people living more Canada-centric lives.

Global culture as a whole in converging more than the opposite (with American-derived pop culture of course playing a huge role in that), so I can't say I have high hopes for a Canadian identity bucking that trend and becoming more distinct, even if we gradually become a more influential country.

Could it be that the increasingly rah-rah-rah Canadianism is actually a reaction to a lingering sense that something is being lost or under threat?

(But even if that sentiment does exist, oddly enough it doesn't at all translate into a greater embracing of stuff that is uniquely Canadian, outside of some extreme outlier phenomena (Gord Downie) or wholly globalized or American products that just happen to have a maple leaf slapped onto them (Bieber, Drake, Raptors, etc.).)

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Canadians seem really likely to have non-Canadian relatives or have kept in touch with people outside the borders of Canada, within living memory, much more so than Americans in my experience. I think it's the high percentage of not just first generation immigrants but people two to three generations removed from migration.

By comparison, it seems much more common for Americans to only have family in the US and have their entire extended families mostly within their country's borders.

For example, it's much more common for an American to say "I've got family in northern Virginia here, and in Seattle there, and in LA there etc."

While in Canada it's much more common to say "I've got family in Toronto here, and in California there and in the UK, Europe/Asia/Caribbean etc."

Just my experience.

Basic statistics. Same reason a random NZ family is more likely to have at least one relative currently living in Australia than the other way around.

[Capsicum]

Despite the Commonwealth no longer of major importance in most people's day-to-day life, you still see the influence of it in Canadian families' settlement patterns.

I'd bet "I've got family in Canada plus family in the UK/Australia/another commonwealth country" is more common than an American having family in the US and then family in a commonwealth country.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Basic statistics. Same reason a random NZ family is more likely to have at least one relative currently living in Australia than the other way around.

Canada is also about 22-23% foreign born whereas the U.S. is around 14% I think.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Despite the Commonwealth no longer of major importance in most people's day-to-day life, you still see the influence of it in Canadian families' settlement patterns.

I'd bet "I've got family in Canada plus family in the UK/Australia/another commonwealth country" is more common than an American having family in the US and then family in a commonwealth country.

Here in Quebec among the immigrants I know it's very common to hear people who have family in Canada plus "the old country/France/U.S.".

Diaspora North African/Lebanese, Francophone African and Haitian families are often spread out between Canada, the U.S. and France.

[Capsicum]

Another thing I wonder about (if it has a factor in weakening Canadian identity) is the issue of immigrants using Canada as a "way station" to get to the US or the whole "Canadians of convenience" thing, like people with dual citizenship in Hong Kong or Lebanon etc.

I wonder if immigrants to Canada are more "temporary" than immigrants to the US. On the other hand, naturalization rates of foreign-born Canadians are higher (eg. if you took an individual that moved overseas to Canada vs. the US at the same time, and looked at them 10 years later, the odds are that the would-be-Canadian has already gotten citizenship than the would-be American would) because the US makes it harder and longer to gain citizenship.

But if once immigrants move to the US, they stay and have low rates of return or leaving to another country at all, that can strengthen assimilation.

But I have no idea if we have stats on "return rates" or "emigration rates" of immigrants to either country.

[Capsicum]

I wonder how common it is for Canadians to say "I have no family or know of no family outside Canada, for as many generations as I can personally know, or keep in touch with".

I think this may be common for the US, especially among places that haven't received immigration for a really long time (eg. small towns in say the Appalachian region) or say among African Americans (those with deep enough roots in the US that they wouldn't know anyone in Africa itself of course, but also unlikely that there's enough African Americans who emigrated or spread out to other countries to make large communities abroad, besides say Canada but even much of that is a long time ago, so that everyone they know for as many generations as they'd keep in touch with are on US soil).

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

I don't know about that - there are fewer Canadian emigrants leaving for the States than in the past, but it's pretty common for anyone of immigrant background to have relatives who went to other countries - most commonly the US. It seems like most people I know have family in some combination of the US, Australia, and/or the UK (aside from the "old country" of course).

Now, how long those connections will last is another matter (like in my case, we've lost touch with my relatives who went to Argentina 50 years ago by this point, but still see our American cousins once or twice a year) - but as long as there remains a steady stream of immigration to both countries, I think it's likely for this occurrence to continue.

I know where you're coming from, and appreciate your opinion, but I was thinking more of old stock native born Canadians rather than the mushrooming international diaspora.

Amongst Quebecers and Maritimers, almost every family had multiple siblings and cousins who immigrated to Lowell or Rumford for mill jobs during the first half of the last century. There were more family connections to Massachusetts than to Ontario or Alberta. My own mother was born in Rumford ME (my grandfather had moved down to work in the mill).

This sort of stuff doesn't happen any more. Most of the surviving economic migrants are in their 80s or 90s. The cousins no longer keep in touch. The new generation moves to central or western Canada for work, not to New England.

[Capsicum]

Perhaps part of the weak identity of Canada also comes about from the fact that not only was Canada a nation of immigrants for much of its history, but also a nation of emigrants.

If even "Old stock Canadians" (Quebecers and Maritimers) on average have family who emigrated to the US within a few generations and have kept in touch, then there's not really a large demographic of Canadians who can say "I've never left Canada or know anyone who has left Canada". There's no self-contained isolation of Canadians who have no exposure to the world outside Canada (the way you can often hear of residents of big countries whose only world is that country, like Americans who've never left the US, or Chinese who've never left China or Indians who've never left India). Then, as soon as Canadian economic emigration became less important, large international immigration became important.

So there must have been few periods in Canadian history where Canadians (in whatever province) were isolationist and not interacting with the rest of the world, be it through immigration or emigration.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Another thing I wonder about (if it has a factor in weakening Canadian identity) is the issue of immigrants using Canada as a "way station" to get to the US or the whole "Canadians of convenience" thing, like people with dual citizenship in Hong Kong or Lebanon etc.

I wonder if immigrants to Canada are more "temporary" than immigrants to the US. On the other hand, naturalization rates of foreign-born Canadians are higher (eg. if you took an individual that moved overseas to Canada vs. the US at the same time, and looked at them 10 years later, the odds are that the would-be-Canadian has already gotten citizenship than the would-be American would) because the US makes it harder and longer to gain citizenship.

But if once immigrants move to the US, they stay and have low rates of return or leaving to another country at all, that can strengthen assimilation.

But I have no idea if we have stats on "return rates" or "emigration rates" of immigrants to either country.

It's said that about 25% of immigrants to Canada end up in the U.S. eventually. That's within 5 or 10 years - I can't recall exactly. Likely 10 I'd say.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Perhaps part of the weak identity of Canada also comes about from the fact that not only was Canada a nation of immigrants for much of its history, but also a nation of emigrants.

If even "Old stock Canadians" (Quebecers and Maritimers) on average have family who emigrated to the US within a few generations and have kept in touch, then there's not really a large demographic of Canadians who can say "I've never left Canada or know anyone who has left Canada". There's no self-contained isolation of Canadians who have no exposure to the world outside Canada (the way you can often hear of residents of big countries whose only world is that country, like Americans who've never left the US, or Chinese who've never left China or Indians who've never left India). Then, as soon as Canadian economic emigration became less important, large international immigration became important.

So there must have been few periods in Canadian history where Canadians (in whatever province) were isolationist and not interacting with the rest of the world, be it through immigration or emigration.

I'd say that for most francophone Québécois their family universe is very much a "here and now" thing.

Obviously none of them have any family ties in France dating back to the settlement of New France.

Those ties to Franco-American families that were born of the great "tisserands" (textile worker) migration have mostly all faded now. I hardly know anyone who ever talks of visitors from or visits to relatives in the U.S. that are descendants of those waves. Most people do have a vague notion of some distant relatives in places like Woonsockett, RI or Lowell, MA. I vaguely know of a number of mine in parts of the NE US but have never really met them - and if I know about them it's because I have an interest in family history. I am not even sure that my siblings are aware of this.

Even for francophone Québécois families who have branches that migrated to other provinces, the ties often die out after a while as well. In my experience they tend to be maintained longer in families where the "expats" don't assimilate. (At least if they don't assimilate right away.)

It's always surprising to meet people who still speak at least a bit of French and have names like Tremblay and Gagnon in places like North Bay or Cornwall and who claim to not have anyone at all that's close to them living in Quebec.

[GlassCity]

I would personally say Canadian identity is getting weaker in some areas and stronger in others in the younger generation. Now all I'm about to say will be based on anecdotal evidence, but that's really the only way these discussions can go.

Take sport. I am getting very close to calling the NFL the most popular league in 'young' Canada, or at least Vancouver. If I was trying to make small talk with a guy my age, I wouldn't ask about the Canucks, I'd ask about the Super Bowl. Though I will say this is much less true here in Winnipeg where the Jets reign supreme. And the CFL is a non-starter. Friends and strangers alike will tease me if I bring up the fact that I watch it. I actually think the CFL is the ultimate symbol of Canada-is-second-rate thinking that permeates throughout many other aspects of our culture. As in, they have the NFL which is great, we have the CFL which sucks, they have X, we have Y, etc.

Or entertainment. The concept of "artists aren't good until they're popular in the US" is alive and well. Part of this may be due to the fact that our media is so dominated by the US that it's too hard for Canadian-only acts to break out and establish a presence. The success of shows like Trailer Park Boys or Letterkenny may run counter to this, but their pull is mitigated by the strength of American TV. TV has an excuse given our significantly lower budgets, but there's no reason we can't have Canada-centric musical acts. I'd be very surprised to see another Tragically Hip come out.

Politics too. This is probably due to general apathy, and I wouldn't say that young Canadians have any better understanding of how the American system works compared to ours. I do however hear how "Canadian politics don't matter" and I think that the average young Canadian may know more American senators than they do Canadian ministers. It always amuses me when the media talks about name recognition because I would guess if I walked around campus and surveyed people, the vast majority wouldn't be able to tell me who Bill Morneau is.

I think patriotism is still quite weak too. For example, American flag clothes are trendy, but nobody would wear anything with a red maple leaf. It's tacky and only comes out July 1. This isn't to say that the US flag may not be tacky too, or that we should embrace overt American-style patriotic displays, but I think it's interesting that those perceptions are the way they are.

All that being said, there's still a Canadian identity, but it largely remains that "we're not American." Stronger social safety net, greater equality, less crime, etc. The biggest one is of course the welcoming, multicultural state, especially since Trump. I still find this rather lacking as a national identity though. There are very few Canadian-created references that Americans wouldn't understand and a general lack of awareness about what cities aside from one's own are like. Until we have Drakes from Vancouver, Edmonton, Halifax, and TV shows about Winnipeg and Ottawa, I don't see our national identity moving much further beyond "more boring but nicer US." And with politics, though I want to be careful what I wish for, I do wish they had more visibility here.

All that being said, I don't want to assume the ages of others' here, but I have been surprised lately at how much the concept of moving to the US for greater pay comes up. It's a line of thinking that's entirely foreign to me. Maybe I just don't hang out with enough ambitious people, but the idea of leaving the city, much less the country, unless you absolutely have to seems just bizarre to me. People have friends and families. If anything, when careers come up, the conversation typically ends up around how to remain in the city or come back as soon as possible. Sure people talk about spending a year or so in the US, but that's more on the level of exploration, like when people talk about spending a semester in Europe. I've never heard someone say they want to leave everything behind and move to SF or NYC for more money. I know some financial types that have gone to Bay Street, but that's about it. So I don't know if that's an example of stronger young Canadian identity, but the distinction between Canadian and American definitely exists in that regard. We're definitely Canadian, not North American.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I think patriotism is still quite weak too. For example, American flag clothes are trendy, but nobody would wear anything with a red maple leaf. It's tacky and only comes out July 1. This isn't to say that the US flag may not be tacky too, or that we should embrace overt American-style patriotic displays, but I think it's interesting that those perceptions are the way they are.

.

Interesting post, but on this point: is that really the case?

I was in five Canadian provinces this year (but none of them in the West - though I've been all over the West several times) and I never go the impression that people were wearing the American flag to any significant degree.

If anything, I thought this was considered very tacky in Canada (with the possible exception of Quebec).

Wearing stuff with "Canada" or the maple leaf on it is very common in my observation, though somewhat less so in Quebec. But you still do see it regularly in La Belle Province too these days.