How would you solve the housing affordability crisis?

[ssiguy]

It has relatively little to do with immigration but rather money laundering and speculation by foreigners which is why Vancouver is so expensive yet is only growing at 1.3%/year.

Vancouver has done everything in it's power to inflate prices and obviously it's been a success. Vancouver is unique in that you can basically tear down any SFH you want in any area and replace it with another SFH. They have turned the housing market into a land speculation one. If Vancouver hadn't allowed this { in the last 20 years 25,000 buildings been destroyed the vast majority SFH} the homes would have been sold as exactly that, homes. Instead they are sold striktly for their land value. These shacks for $2 million would go for $500k if they couldn't be torn down because the buyers would actually have to live in the house they buy and nearly none had the proper feng-shui.
Everyother city in Metro Vancouver allows the same.

Vancouver has made very conscious decisions to turn the city into a resort for the wealthy and they have succeded.

[Acajack]

Assuming that there is a real issue filling late night fast food shifts and other jobs that native-born Canadians just won't do, not sure our current immigration program parameters will help out much on that front. We favour the highly educated, the highly well-off, or both.

PhDs from Africa or self-made millionaires from India aren't going to do the night shift at Timmies. (Not happily anyway.) And neither are their kids.

I guess that's probably why we had the much-maligned TFW program.

It's also worth noting that other countries (like France) have some amount of experience bringing in foreign workers (temporarily, or not ) to do menial jobs that the citizenry didn't want to do. People should ask them how that turned out.

All of this is also maybe why McDonald's is moving to automation in some of its locations.

[MonkeyRonin]

Some good ideas being floated around so far. I like the idea of incentivizing rental construction. Tax breaks are an obvious one of course, but offering density bonuses or granting larger zoning variances to rental developers are some other possibilities.

Also, while I suggested earlier that the government get out of the business of building public housing by putting the onus on private sector developers instead, I hadn't considered the idea of government-owned for-profit housing (just, with more responsible profit margins than the private sector). These could even be a mixture of rental and condo units, and have income caps to prevent predatory investors. These would be a good option for middle class/lower middle class renters and would-be homeowners who are too well-off to qualify for subsidized housing, but that are otherwise having trouble with current market rates.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Assuming that there is a real issue filling late night fast food shifts and other jobs that native-born Canadians just won't do, not sure our current immigration program parameters will help out much on that front. We favour the highly educated, the highly well-off, or both.

PhDs from Africa or self-made millionaires from India aren't going to do the night shift at Timmies. (Not happily anyway.) And neither are their kids.

I guess that's probably why we had the much-maligned TFW program.

It's also worth noting that other countries (like France) have some amount of experience bringing in foreign workers (temporarily, or not ) to do menial jobs that the citizenry didn't want to do. People should ask them how that turned out.

All of this is also maybe why McDonald's is moving to automation in some of its locations.

I would not look to France or the UK for an example of this. There are fairly significant cultural issues at play there. A better example is the US.

In the US, immigrants from Mexico take on many of these roles. To some extent in Canada immigration from the Philippines tends to also fill a similar role.

Why do people move to a different country to take on a job working at Tim's? Usually it is going to be because it provides an opportunity for their kids to get a better education and a better job. Alternatively it is because back home the same opportunists don't exist.

Canada has a free trade agreement with Mexico. The US is making it more difficult. There is an entire population of people who have grown up in the US and understand the culture that the US wants to deport. Lets bring them into Canada and help solve our labour shortage.

We do need to have housing. Low cost entry level accommodation for new immigrants or limited financial means is something that any housing strategy needs to address.

Without addressing that we have the short-term problem on tim-bits shortages at 3:00 AM in the morning and longer-term problem of missing out on the contribution that these immigrants and their kids will make over the next generation.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by casper

I would not look to France or the UK for an example of this. There are fairly significant cultural issues at play there. A better example is the US.

In the US, immigrants from Mexico take on many of these roles. To some extent in Canada immigration from the Philippines tends to also fill a similar role.
.

I doubt you'd get anywhere near a strong majority of Americans agreeing on whether or not this is a good thing, though.

(None of this is reflective of my view on that, BTW.)

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Assuming that there is a real issue filling late night fast food shifts and other jobs that native-born Canadians just won't do, not sure our current immigration program parameters will help out much on that front.

This idea that Canadians won't do certain jobs has insidiously spread and shows up in the media but it makes no sense and it should be obvious that it is a way of looking at the labour market that is heavily slanted toward business owners. It is really propaganda.

The fact is that if you can't hire somebody for a job you're not offering a market wage. I've seen a bunch of articles about cook/chef "shortages" in Vancouver but the hourly wages are often $14-18. That is not a living wage for an adult and more importantly it's not a viable market wage because people have better options. The fact that better options exist than working 70 hour weeks and for a wage that lets you live in a crappy apartment with roommates is a good thing, not a bad thing.

Low productivity Third World countries embody the dream of plentiful labour. Every somewhat nice place in a poor country has a doorman and 5 people standing around with nothing to do. One could say that we have a doorman shortage in Canada but it's a good thing that few people have to do that silly job at all, and people either open doors for themselves or press buttons. We should be focusing on doing the same thing with every industry, rather than finding ways of keeping wages down so the rich can have more slaves.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

It's particularly pertinent to me at the moment as I'm looking for a new apartment, but even with a well-above average income it seems like I can no longer afford much beyond a bed bug-infested slumlord building or a basement in the far reaches of Scarborough.

A personal tangent, if you don't mind. Would you be willing to move to a smaller city nearby or somewhere else if the job offer and living circumstances were right? If so, where?

Just curious.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

This idea that Canadians won't do certain jobs has insidiously spread and shows up in the media but it makes no sense and it should be obvious that it is a way of looking at the labour market that is heavily slanted toward business owners. It is really propaganda.

The fact is that if you can't hire somebody for a job you're not offering a market wage. I've seen a bunch of articles about cook/chef "shortages" in Vancouver but the hourly wages are often $14-18. That is not a living wage for an adult and more importantly it's not a viable market wage because people have better options. The fact that better options exist than working 70 hour weeks and for a wage that lets you live in a crappy apartment with roommates is a good thing, not a bad thing.

Low productivity Third World countries embody the dream of plentiful labour. Every somewhat nice place in a poor country has a doorman and 5 people standing around with nothing to do. One could say that we have a doorman shortage in Canada but it's a good thing that few people have to do that silly job at all, and people either open doors for themselves or press buttons. We should be focusing on doing the same thing with every industry, rather than finding ways of keeping wages down so the rich can have more slaves.

But of course.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by someone123

This idea that Canadians won't do certain jobs has insidiously spread and shows up in the media but it makes no sense and it should be obvious that it is a way of looking at the labour market that is heavily slanted toward business owners. It is really propaganda.

The fact is that if you can't hire somebody for a job you're not offering a market wage. I've seen a bunch of articles about cook/chef "shortages" in Vancouver but the hourly wages are often $14-18. That is not a living wage for an adult and more importantly it's not a viable market wage because people have better options. The fact that better options exist than working 70 hour weeks and for a wage that lets you live in a crappy apartment with roommates is a good thing, not a bad thing.

Low productivity Third World countries embody the dream of plentiful labour. Every somewhat nice place in a poor country has a doorman and 5 people standing around with nothing to do. One could say that we have a doorman shortage in Canada but it's a good thing that few people have to do that silly job at all, and people either open doors for themselves or press buttons. We should be focusing on doing the same thing with every industry, rather than finding ways of keeping wages down so the rich can have more slaves.

Exactly. If you can't find anyone for your crappy jobs at $14 hr, the market signal is to raise your payrates until you do get applicants. Then business owners whine about how customers won't pay - well try it. If a steak is $26 or $29 is irrelevant when I'm making that purchase decision. If it was of that much concern I'd have stayed home and grilled it myself.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by rousseau

A personal tangent, if you don't mind. Would you be willing to move to a smaller city nearby or somewhere else if the job offer and living circumstances were right? If so, where?

Just curious.

Nope (unless that "smaller city" were Montreal or something). I don't particularly like anything beyond the borders of the Humber, 401, and Victoria Park for at least the next several hundred kilometres if I'm being completely honest. But effete tastes aside, it's not so easy to uproot one's self when their partner, family, friends, and whole general life are based in a particular place.

I'm willing to put up with the high cost of living here (and am fortunate enough to still be able to do so, albeit not without making some sacrifices in other areas), but it's certainly not ideal. And more importantly, it's just detrimental to the health & livability of the city for all of us.

[whatnext]

It's clear the whole concept of immigration is being tainted by governments of all stripes unwilling to look at it critically. See the story below:

Richmond Hospital becomes passport mill

Each day at least one non-resident is giving birth to gain citizenship for their child

Richmond is Canada’s epicentre for a booming, unregulated birth tourism industry emerging from China.
Wealthy Chinese nationals are showing up at local doctor offices, cash in hand, with the intent of giving birth to obtain Canadian citizenship for their newborn babies.

“They are here for that Canadian passport,” said Xi An, the founder of the Vancouver Post-natal Care Association and the owner of the Richmond-based Icy Consulting firm, which helps provide services for women giving birth, including maternity care, arranging appointments and filing various paperwork.

What once was a shadowy, underground practice is now increasingly more open, as dozens of so-called “baby houses” have emerged in the city. Many operators are advertising online, here and in China, that the practice is legal. However, several concerns have emerged related to quality of care, healthcare access and the integrity of the citizenship process....

http://richmond-news.com/news/weekly...ill-1.23064245

Eventually this will lead to a Trumpian event of some kind in Canada. Y

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Eventually this will lead to a Trumpian event of some kind in Canada.

To quote an earlier poster, "Canada isn't Vancouver". And though many of us are also facing an uncomfortably high cost of living at the moment, the China boogeyman just isn't a thing in the rest of the country.

I was kind of hoping this thread would turn into something a little more interesting than a repeat of the housing bubble thread, but oh well...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

To quote an earlier poster, "Canada isn't Vancouver". And though many of us are also facing an uncomfortably high cost of living at the moment, the China boogeyman just isn't a thing in the rest of the country.

I was kind of hoping this thread would turn into something a little more interesting than a repeat of the housing bubble thread, but oh well...

Not to mention that the aggressive, bombastic Trumpian style isn't the Canadian style.

Now, don't be fooled. Hate has taken and can take root in Canada. It just does so in a subtle underhanded way.

[Delusio Cogno]

How many high does a pile of lemmings need to be before a lemming moves to another pile? As long as the lemmings try to outbid each other for their spot on the pile the prices will continue to rise.

With computers and the internet most jobs can now be done remotely. Location became irrelevant years ago. No one told the lemmings.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Delusio Cogno

With computers and the internet most jobs can now be done remotely. Location became irrelevant years ago. No one told the lemmings.

This was the dream of the 1990's and earlier but so far it hasn't really panned out. Even if you work in tech and most of what you do boils down to typing that could seemingly happen anywhere, there are a lot of reasons to prefer one place over another.

The biggest reason most people don't want to move is that they don't want to leave their friends and family or uproot other family members. This is by far the biggest reason why I stay in Vancouver.

Another reality is that a lot of remote jobs aren't great. They are often lower prestige and less secure. Humans are still prone to the same biases they always were and there are advantages to working with people in a shared physical space. Stuff like video conferencing doesn't work that well either, or at least a lot of people have trouble with it.

A more subtle related fact is that the richest people live in nice places and don't travel around constantly to do business. So if you want competitive investment there is a huge incentive to go to the Bay Area even if it is extremely expensive. It is similar with finance in New York or writers and actors going to LA.

Finally some places are just naturally more attractive than others. Most of Canada is not very hospitable. In BC there isn't much desirable habitable land aside from the small areas that are already expensive. This is why these places are so expensive. There aren't a lot of alternatives.

With all of this in mind I don't think people are stupid lemmings. They are following the incentives they are faced with. Solving the problem will require improving the system.

[Delusio Cogno]

Originally Posted by someone123

With all of this in mind I don't think people are stupid lemmings. They are following the incentives they are faced with. Solving the problem will require improving the system.

I didn't say they were stupid. I implied that they were uneducated about their options.

Originally Posted by someone123

The biggest reason most people don't want to move is that they don't want to leave their friends and family or uproot other family members. This is by far the biggest reason why I stay in Vancouver.

This then is not a housing crisis, but an irrational location attachment issue. Why would anyone stay in an overcrowded place where you can't find an affordable place to live?

Originally Posted by someone123

the richest people live in nice places and don't travel around constantly to do business

I doubt that the richest people are affected by the price of housing.

[someone123]

I agree. The richest aren't very affected. Actually they tend to gain from high housing costs. But other people tend to have to follow the rich around, so there is some pull toward higher cost areas. Wealth and income inequality exacerbates this, since more of the economy becomes geared toward services for the rich.

Why is it irrational not to want to move away from your friends and family? If you know 50 people who live near you, it's really unlikely that you'll be able to coordinate a move to another city without leaving some people behind.

[Delusio Cogno]

Originally Posted by someone123

Why is it irrational not to want to move away from your friends and family? If you know 50 people who live near you, it's really unlikely that you'll be able to coordinate a move to another city without leaving some people behind.

It is irrational for 50 people to live in sub-standard housing because the other 49 like the view of the mountains they imagine are outside their basement apartment windows.

It is irrational for 50 descendants of immigrants to not recognize sometimes leaving people behind is better than trying to live within a broken system.

It is irrational for 50 people to stay in earthquake zone because the other 49 people want to stay.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

To quote an earlier poster, "Canada isn't Vancouver". And though many of us are also facing an uncomfortably high cost of living at the moment, the China boogeyman just isn't a thing in the rest of the country.

I was kind of hoping this thread would turn into something a little more interesting than a repeat of the housing bubble thread, but oh well...

That's a naive view. What effects Vancouver is impacting Victoria, Kelowna etc as working residents get pushed out. If you think Toronto with "only" 7.2% of sales to foreign buyers, isn't facing the same issue, you're delusional. Note 7.2% is just the declared foreign buyer (not including those Canadians or PRs using foreign money). But even so, if I take 7.2% of the housing inventory out of circulation, that impacts prices across the board, it's a substantial amount of inventory.

And even if you try to argue this only a Vancouver/BC and Toronto problem, federal policy is being made on the basis of those two large markets. Therefore the whole country is impacted, whether you like it or not.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Delusio Cogno

It is irrational for 50 people to live in sub-standard housing because the other 49 like the view of the mountains they imagine are outside their basement apartment windows.

It is irrational for 50 descendants of immigrants to not recognize sometimes leaving people behind is better than trying to live within a broken system.

It is irrational for 50 people to stay in earthquake zone because the other 49 people want to stay.

You're using "irrational" to mean "doesn't share my values".

I think of rationality as the ability to make decisions that generate optimal utility given the information and options available. The utility is subjective. Maybe if you really like people who can't or don't want to move you are happier living in a basement apartment than you are moving away.

In any case I think a lot could be done to improve the housing situation in Vancouver. And a lot of people who live there right now are pretty happy. I could have a larger house somewhere else but I'm fairly content where I am. The housing situation could be better but the lack of affordability is unlikely to cause me to make any major changes to my life.