High-Speed Intercity Passenger Rail Program (USA)

[djlx2v2]

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[Beta_Magellan]

Or no rock—I believe much of Germany’s ICE uses ballastless track, as does much of China’s system. Although it’s more expensive, at very high speeds you get things like pressure waves propagating through the ballast, so the lower maintenance costs of ballastless track become more attractive. You also don’t have to worry about flying rocks.

[djlx2]

good to know. everyone likes getting rocked, but no one likes getting hit by flying rocks. thanks for the info.

[202_Cyclist]

Amtrak seeks $1.3 billion to meet need for speed

April 04, 2011|
By Paul Nussbaum
Philadelphia Inquirer

“Amtrak is seeking $1.3 billion in federal funds for major improvements to the heavily traveled Northeast rail corridor, including $450 million to make Philadelphia-to-New-York trains the fastest in the country, Amtrak said Monday.

A recent decision by the new governor of Florida to reject federal money for high-speed rail development there made it possible for Amtrak to seek the high-speed-rail funding.

The $450 million sought for the Philadelphia-New York stretch would pay for signal and track upgrades, improved power substations and overhead wire systems to increase capacity and boost speeds between Morrisville and New Brunswick….”

http://articles.philly.com/2011-04-0...man-steve-kulm

[ardecila]

I can't imagine a heavy-ass Acela train doing 160mph. It's like watching an offensive lineman do a 40 in 4.6 seconds... there's just something unnatural about it.

[aquablue]

How much would that decrease the journey times between DC and NYC?

Also, will this mean that the priority is now just to upgrade the NEC rather than build new proper HSR tracks? Or is this just a stop-gap measure until then? I'd rather they used the capital to start focusing on a new HSR line rather than putting lipstick on a pig, so to speak. I hope they are not intending the current NEC to be the HSR line.

I also think the 30 year time frame is too long. Really, by the time 220mph service starts in 2040, 220mph will probably no longer be considered high speed rail globally. I think the focus should be DC-NYC in 15 years. 30-40 years is too long to maintain political will. Hopefully political winds toward HSR will change in the future as the need for it becomes more and more evident. Maybe then we can act like a civilized 1st world country and build a new rail line in a respectable time frame.


England's new HSR proposal is already going to have 250mph trains, so it seems odd that we couldn't achieve that here. They'll also probably build theirs twice as fast or more, as they know how to get things done over there when they set their mind to it. The USA? Not so much anymore.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by ardecila

I can't imagine a heavy-ass Acela train doing 160mph. It's like watching an offensive lineman do a 40 in 4.6 seconds... there's just something unnatural about it.

I can see it doing that in NJ , not in NY , or PA ....MD , DE yes ...

[afiggatt]

Originally Posted by arguably

How much would that decrease the journey times between DC and NYC?

Also, will this mean that the priority is now just to upgrade the NEC rather than build new proper HSR tracks? Or is this just a stop-gap measure until then? I'd rather they used the capital to start focusing on a new HSR line rather than putting lipstick on a pig, so to speak. I hope they are not intending the current NEC to be the HSR line.

135 mph to 160 mph in NJ? Not that much. The high speed 135 mile segment from Trenton to south of Brunswick, NJ with several curves is around 25 miles long. If, say, 20 miles of that is run at 160 versus 135 mph, you only reduce trip times from 8.88 to 7.5 minutes over the 20 miles. More fun though!

The Portal Bridge replacement is likely to have a bigger effect on reducing trip times because of faster speeds over the bridge and allowing padding to be removed from the schedule because of the fixing the 2 track choke point & not having to deal with the bridge getting stuck open.

The signal, power, and track upgrades from Newark to Morrisville, PA (well, Trenton) in the $518 million application, although we don't what specifically they are, may also have a bigger improvement on trip times than the shinier 160 mph segment.

The NEC next generation plan is still in place. Amtrak in their FY2012 budget submission said they are doing the early stage planning on the first section of the HSR line from between Newark to Philly, but the cost is currently estimated at $7 billion. Amtrak needs to upgrade the current NEC while trying to get the very big bucks for a series of 220 mph HSR segments. Personally, I rather see the focus remain on improving the current NEC, maybe with a few new separate real HSR segments, than spend $100+ billion and untold decades on a entirely new HSR line. The spacing between many of the major stops on NEC really don't make sense for 220 mph speeds because the train will spend too much time accelerating and deaccelerating. Might make sense to build dedicated HSR runs in just a few segments: Baltimore to Wilmington, north of Philly to Newark, and somehow & somewhere in CT.

[aquablue]

I disagree. I'm hoping that proper HSR is implemented separate from current tracks because I can see capacity becoming a problem over time. Also higher speeds and faster times will create more and more demand over aircraft.

We need to get a DC-NYC express that will take over from the shuttles. Remember, not all stops on the NEC have to be made all of the time so higher speeds can be justified. DC-NYC in 90 mins or so should be a major tipping point from aircraft to rail. I can see a much higher ridership potential which could make a good economic case for a limited express HSR service between major cities at higher prices, and then a more regional slower and cheaper service.

Amtrak show their tiered services, and I agree. I can see a limited stop service working well once speeds are high enough to generate far more demand from the major population centers along the way. With the savings in time over airports, I see the vast majority of O/D shuttle pax as of now switching to rail. Smaller stops may have to be eliminated for some services allowing faster times.

I say do it properly, or don't bother.

[afiggatt]

Managed to find press releases and news for some of the state applications for the Florida HSR funds.

The Amtrak press release about the $1.3 billion and the projects can be found at http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/BlobSe...mtrakSeeks.pdf

Among the state applications:
Maryland: $415 million total, $299 million for BWI Airport station and 4th track, $116 million for engineering and EIS for replacing the Bush, Gunpowder, Susquehanna river bridges on the NEC.

Massachusetts: $98.4 million to replace Merrimack River bridge in Haverhill for MBTA and Downeaster.

Missouri: $937 million total; $337 million for current Kansas City to St. Louis and St. Louis to IL corridors, $600 million for study, engineering, and ROW acquisition for KC to St. Louis HSR corridor. The last one is a real long shot for selection at best.

NC: $624 million total: for a series of projects, but also includes $300 million to buy 140 miles of the CSX S-Line ROW from Petersburg VA to Cary, NC for the SE HSR corridor. $50 million for 75 miles of the abandoned S-Line, $250 million for 65 miles of the active part of the S-Line.

NY: $517 million for 8 projects: $294.7 million for a Harold interlocking bypass in Queens for Amtrak to avoid conflicts with LIRR, $49.8 million for phase 2 design of Moynihan station, 6 others on the Empire corridor.

Rhode Island: $31 million: $25 million for 3rd track at Kingston station for Acela and Amtrak bypass traffic, $6 million for studies

WA: $120 million for Cascades corridor projects

Wisconsin: $150 million for Chicago to Milwaukee Hiawatha service for new rolling stock and maintenance facility.

Vermont: $80 million for Ethan Allen western corridor expansion

Don't know yet what Illinois, Michigan, PA, Virginia asked for or if they even did.

[Beta_Magellan]

It’s good to see that they’ve put in a lot of applications that should bring some major benefits for the NEC (especially in Maryland and New York)—I’d like to see the lion’s share of the HSR+leftover stimulus money go to CAHSR and the NEC, with a good chunk of funding for another project—NC’s a particularly strong candidate given their work so far, and even though the Missouri HSR corridor’s probably a pipe dream the River Runner has seen a lot of ridership growth in recent years and it would be nice to reward them for that by upgrading the existing corridor.

The state DOT’s may be taking the lead on the Michigan, Illinois, PA & VA projects, whereas these seem more like projects that Amtrak has more of a hand in.

One thing to keep in mind, though, is that with the looming government shutdown we’re not likely to hear about where these funds will be appropriated anytime soon, and (to me at least) it seems more likely now that they’ll be bargained away in order to end a political stalemate.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by afiggatt

Don't know yet what Illinois, Michigan, PA, Virginia asked for or if they even did.

I don't think Illinois asked for anything, although I hope they re-submitted the request for $5 million for a feasibility study of a 220mph line. (It was rejected twice, for unknown reasons.)

[babybackribs2314]

Wow. That Amtrak article says the travel time from DC to Boston would be 3 hours and 23 minutes, which is just a massive improvement from now. I would imagine that New York would be about 1 hr 45 from DC, based on that. I still think that's too long--there needs to be a non-stop line from DC to NYC that takes an hour or so (and if they could get Philly in for under an hour, that would be fine too).

[SpawnOfVulcan]

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist

Amtrak seeks $1.3 billion to meet need for speed

April 04, 2011|
By Paul Nussbaum
Philadelphia Inquirer

“Amtrak is seeking $1.3 billion in federal funds for major improvements to the heavily traveled Northeast rail corridor, including $450 million to make Philadelphia-to-New-York trains the fastest in the country, Amtrak said Monday.

A recent decision by the new governor of Florida to reject federal money for high-speed rail development there made it possible for Amtrak to seek the high-speed-rail funding.

The $450 million sought for the Philadelphia-New York stretch would pay for signal and track upgrades, improved power substations and overhead wire systems to increase capacity and boost speeds between Morrisville and New Brunswick….”

http://articles.philly.com/2011-04-0...man-steve-kulm

Honestly, this is a much better investment than a Florida corridor, at the moment. To get anything started in this country, especially with a Republican congress, we need to prove (even more than we already have) that high speed rail is a viable alternative for intercity transport.

Good move for Amtrak.

[JDRCRASH]

Originally Posted by tredici

Honestly, this is a much better investment than a Florida corridor, at the moment. To get anything started in this country, especially with a Republican congress, we need to prove (even more than we already have) that high speed rail is a viable alternative for intercity transport.

Good move for Amtrak.

I agree, but let's be honest with ourselves............. we'll NEVER completely prove to the Republican Congress that high speed rail is a viable alternative.....

Man i'm sick of these f***'n A-holes.....

[afiggatt]

Originally Posted by tredici

Honestly, this is a much better investment than a Florida corridor, at the moment. To get anything started in this country, especially with a Republican congress, we need to prove (even more than we already have) that high speed rail is a viable alternative for intercity transport.

Good move for Amtrak.

The 2 construction projects - Portal Bride replacement,; NJ Catenary, track,power improvements - in the Amtrak $1.3 billion application, along with the MD proposed BWI Airport rebuild & 4th track, RI 3rd track in Kingston, and the other previously funded NEC projects will only reduce trip times on the NEC by a few minutes. Projects that need to be done, yes, but not enough to make a notable difference in NEC trip times.

Besides any HSR work in the Northeast will be seen by many as only relevant to the densely crowded Northeast. A frequent argument from the anti-intercity rail / HSR crowd is that the US is to big and too lightly populated to support HSR. They have this romantic frontier view of a thinly populated US. In Wyoming and the Dakotas, sure. But the US is now a country with a population of around 309 million with many regions about as densely populated as much of Europe. From eastern edge of the western plains to the east coast, in eastern Texas, in California & the SW and the Pacific NW, the US is now getting pretty crowded. All those regions can support improved intercity rail, corridor trains, and HSR.

The most important project is the California HSR. If CA HSR can start construction, get enough funding to keep moving forward on adding sections and look real enough to attract private investors to pick up 1/2 the cost, then other states and regions will ask, why not here?

The other projects that can make a difference in the near term (5 years) are the 110 mph upgrades for the Chicago-St. Louis and Chicago-Detroit corridors. If those succeed and show major growth in ridership, that will help build support in the greater mid-West for more 90 and 110 mph corridors and start the longer term development process for true HSR corridors in the mid-West. The improvements to the Chi-St. Louis corridor are already sparking serious discussion and proposals for Chi-St Louis and St. Louis to Kansas City HSR corridors.

The Southeast and Pacific NW corridors are also important, but the prospects of major reductions in trip times and expansions in service frequency for those corridors are many years away at the current funding rates.

[orulz]

I predict that about $2 billion will be split between the NEC and California. That would leave $400 million for everyone else. I for one hope NC gets the $225 million it asked for in order to extend trains to downtown Charlotte (the current station is in an industrial area north of downtown) but I'm not holding my breath.

I also agree that it is likely that some or all of this money will be cut as a result of the budget negotiations going on.

[Beta_Magellan]

Originally Posted by afiggatt

The 2 construction projects - Portal Bride replacement,; NJ Catenary, track,power improvements - in the Amtrak $1.3 billion application, along with the MD proposed BWI Airport rebuild & 4th track, RI 3rd track in Kingston, and the other previously funded NEC projects will only reduce trip times on the NEC by a few minutes. Projects that need to be done, yes, but not enough to make a notable difference in NEC trip times.

The advantage of many of the northeast corridors, though, is that they are all mutually-reinforcing and pave the way towards future improvements. Some of these also sound like they could lead to non-trivial improvements in things like reliability and frequency, which also help. There’s also the matter of keeping the infrastructure in a state of good repair and replacing outdated infrastructure, which is something US transportation policy as a whole needs to give more concentration.

Besides any HSR work in the Northeast will be seen by many as only relevant to the densely crowded Northeast. A frequent argument from the anti-intercity rail / HSR crowd is that the US is to big and too lightly populated to support HSR. They have this romantic frontier view of a thinly populated US. In Wyoming and the Dakotas, sure. But the US is now a country with a population of around 309 million with many regions about as densely populated as much of Europe. From eastern edge of the western plains to the east coast, in eastern Texas, in California & the SW and the Pacific NW, the US is now getting pretty crowded. All those regions can support improved intercity rail, corridor trains, and HSR.

That’s true, but it can be balanced against the fact that there’s actually a fair amount of support for improvements to the NEC in Congress (self-interested trips to New York?) and Mica’s been very pro-NEC. I don’t know how much that’s tempered by the Republican Party as a whole, but even if he’s anti-Amtrak he certainly isn’t completely anti-HSR like many of his colleagues.

I remember reading that California’s was going to request all of the funds a number given at $2.43 billion. Let’s assume California gets $1.3 billion out of that—that leaves around $1.13 billion left to be appropriated elsewhere. In the NEC, the best bet for improvements are between New York and Washington (since most congressmen don’t throw huge fundraising parties in Providence and Boston), so add in Maryland’s $415 million and the $450 million Amtrak project in New Jersey. That leaves $265 million left, enough for a couple of smaller projects on shorter corridors (I’m looking at you, Milwaukee and Seattle), a big chunk to North Carolina, or splitting the money between projects and not giving into the full funding requests.

Regardless of what lays ahead for the next couple of years, I do think that intercity rail has been put on the national agenda and it won’t be going away. To paraphrase Ray LaHood when Florida rejected its money, “No big deal—the program’s oversubscribed anyway.” There’s definitely a demand for this, and it will be ncreasingly difficult to ignore.

[aquablue]

Are you telling me that HSR is going to be cut now due to the budget debate? Just as it was getting some momentum, and now the democrats will allow it to be cut?

LOL, this country is hopeless and pathetic mess when it comes to infrastructure.. I'm so embarrassed to live here.

[SpawnOfVulcan]

Originally Posted by JDRCRASH

I agree, but let's be honest with ourselves............. we'll NEVER completely prove to the Republican Congress that high speed rail is a viable alternative.....

Man i'm sick of these f***'n A-holes.....

And that's exactly the attitude which will never allow them to change. The more we polarize, the less likely anyone is ever going to be to come together and come up with a solid, supported, plan.

No offense, though, I completely understand your frustration.