Urban US Chinatowns wane as Asians head to suburbs

[hammersklavier]

Philadelphia's Chinatown is another that's growing, not shrinking. In fact it's growing in such a way as to cause maximum conflicts with its neighbors.

[miketoronto]

Toronto has some Chinatown segregation going on.

The downtown Chinatown on Spadina Ave caters more to mainland Chinese populations, and on weekends it is normal to see Chinese people from Scar commuting down by subway to Spadina Ave to hang out and shop in Chinatown.

However the Chinese population from Hong Kong will for the most part not be caught on Spadina Ave, and they tend to stick to the suburban Chinatowns they built in the suburbs.

Now of course that is a general overview and there are people from both groups who use both areas. But I have Chinese friends who have told me about that little divide between the Chinatowns.


Toronto's downtown Chinatown along Spadina Ave has a BIA now, and one of their projects is trying to get suburban Chinese residents to come back downtown to Spadina Ave, and rediscover the joys of an urban Chinatown and their so called immigration roots.
Don't know how well that is working.

Overall the suburban Chinatowns in Toronto happen to have some great food, and a friend and I always go up to Highway 7 to have some of the best dumplings you will ever taste outside of Asia.
But that being said, the suburban Chinatowns just don't have the same vibrancy and character as Chinatowns on real urban streets. So for character and atmosphere, Spadina Ave will always be more interesting.

The Chinese are not the only population suburbanizing. All cultures seem to be seeing their ethnic areas migrating to the suburbs.
Despite having one of the largest Italian populations outside of Italy, you would never know it anymore looking at inner city Toronto. The two Little Italy districts in the city are getting more and more less Italian each year, as Italian business continues to flee to the outer suburbs into strip mall little italy strips.

I do however find suburban ethnic areas much harder to navigate. On a urban strip, you can walk around and look at things and discover places.
But in the suburbs you gotta drive from strip mall to strip mall, and you really can't discover to the same degree as walking down a street. And in terms of the Italian suburban areas, its even harder, because many business are in these office park industrial areas. And unless you know there is a bakery tucked in there from an add, you will never find it just driving down the street. Which really makes it hard to get Italian culture anymore

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Despite having one of the largest Italian populations outside of Italy, you would never know it anymore looking at inner city Toronto. The two Little Italy districts in the city are getting more and more less Italian each year, as Italian business continues to flee to the outer suburbs into strip mall little italy strips.

More important is the fact that most of the Italian immigrants are dieing at this point, and their ancestors being absorbed into the mainstream Canadian culture. In another decade or two, our Italian communities will more closely the resemble those of the US at present - i.e. a token "Little Italy" neighbourhood with a few proper Italian businesses scattered around, but nonetheless a more profound but subtle Italian influence on Canadian society (as with any culture that becomes integrated within a larger one).

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

More important is the fact that most of the Italian immigrants are dieing at this point, and their ancestors being absorbed into the mainstream Canadian culture. In another decade or two, our Italian communities will more closely the resemble those of the US at present - i.e. a token "Little Italy" neighbourhood with a few proper Italian businesses scattered around, but nonetheless a more profound but subtle Italian influence on Canadian society (as with any culture that becomes integrated within a larger one).

Actually don't expect that to happen very fast.
A report I read a couple years ago at school actually had a study showing that of all immigrant groups, Chinese and Italian populations in Toronto were the only two groups to not integrate into Canadian society. It was found kids born to Chinese and Italian parents and even the kids of these kids maintained close identity to their Italian or Chinese background.

You see this in Vaughan, the Italian suburb, or in Markham with the Chinese. There are third or fourth generation Italians born here in Toronto who have that suburban Toronto Italian accent, and only relate with other Italian's, etc.
Same goes for the Chinese population in Markham, etc.

So I think that will be an interesting thing to watch with our ethnic areas in Canada. Canadian's overall tend to maintain much closer tied to their native cultures, even if not born there.

I even notice this in my own family. Our family in the USA who also immigrated from Italy, hardly if ever go back to Italy. While the ones who came to Canada go more often. And the ones in the USA who had kids. Their kids are very very Americanized. Where the kids born in Canada like myself are much more Italian and in touch with our Italian culture, than our American counterparts.

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

Philadelphia's Chinatown is another that's growing, not shrinking. In fact it's growing in such a way as to cause maximum conflicts with its neighbors.

Which conflicts . . . relating to the rail viaduct? Other than that I can't think of any.

I don't think Philadelphia's Chinatown growth (not very strong, IMO) in Philly has caused conflict with neighbors because basically it has no human neighbors other than a few relative newcomers in the loft district to the NW. Essentially Chinatown is surrounded by commercial / government uses to the W,S, and E, and semi-derelict industrial areas to the N.

If anything, development in these surrounding areas is encroaching on "Chinatown North", which is a slight misnomer in that the Chinatown powers that be haven't really done much to develop the area over the last many decades. It's still a anti-pedestrian wasteland up there.

The Asian area along Washington Ave has experienced moderate growth.

I think the Asian area in Upper Darby is shrinking, but I'm not sure. I think the Asian population in East Oak Lane and the Lower Northeast and Oxford Circle is growing a bit.

I think the wealthy suburban Asian population in Lansdale / Montgomeryville is growing alot, but it is heavily mixed in with non-Asian populations.

[ue]

Love the Toronto discussion in a U.S. Chinatown thread.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280

This isn't the case in Chicago. Our Chinatown is growing stronger by the year. For some reason Chicago has very strong ties to China (was one of only two cities in the US visited by Hu Jintao last year) and Chinatown here is overflowing into Bridgeport and Bronzeville and seeing highrise proposals right now.

I'm struggling to think of any Asian communities in the suburbs that have reached critical mass, with sizable numbers of businesses and Asian-led redevelopment. Buffalo Grove has a Korean community that has spawned a handful of businesses around the intersection of Dundee/Buffalo Grove Rd, but the majority of the businesses at that intersection are still not Korean, and the Koreans are heavily outnumbered by the Jewish community there.

AFAIK, wealthy Asians have sought out suburbs with the best school systems (just like white families) but since there are many excellent schools spread over a wide swath of suburbia, there aren't any huge concentrations of Asians.

http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/explorer

Hmm, seems like the suburban Asians are more concentrated than I thought, in places like Niles, Skokie, and Westmont.

[Chicago103]

Originally Posted by ardecila

I'm struggling to think of any Asian communities in the suburbs that have reached critical mass, with sizable numbers of businesses and Asian-led redevelopment. Buffalo Grove has a Korean community that has spawned a handful of businesses around the intersection of Dundee/Buffalo Grove Rd, but the majority of the businesses at that intersection are still not Korean, and the Koreans are heavily outnumbered by the Jewish community there.

AFAIK, wealthy Asians have sought out suburbs with the best school systems (just like white families) but since there are many excellent schools spread over a wide swath of suburbia, there aren't any huge concentrations of Asians.

http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/explorer

Hmm, seems like the suburban Asians are more concentrated than I thought, in places like Niles, Skokie, and Westmont.

The Asian population of the city of Chicago increased by 17% in the 2010 census, it grew more in the suburbs but it shows there are plenty of Asians moving into the city and there isn't some massive move of them out of the city to the suburbs, at least not to offset other big gains. Bridgeport is actually becoming one of the most diverse neighborhoods in the city now (well aside from blacks), it is basically becoming 1/3 White, 1/3 Hispanic and 1/3 Asian.

[photoLith]

Houstons traditional Chinatown died or started to about 15-10 years ago. Its starting to come back, but the major "Chinatown" in Houston has been out in the suburbs to the west of the city for quite some time. Its all just strip malls and very suburban. But the old Chinatown is across from 59 blocked off from downtown by George R. Brown Convention Center. The area was quite the ghetto, still kinda is. But, we are getting a new soccer stadium near it and lots of new lofts and apartments in the area that are bringing in new life.

[Urbanguy]

This is definitely a trend that has being going on for a long time now. In Portland's Chinatown there aren't many Chinese -- the majority seem to gravitate towards 82nd Ave. The majority of Vietnamese live on the East/NE side (although many live in Beaverton too) of the city especially in the Sandy area. However, there are many Asians that do live in the suburbs like Beaverton -- East Indians in the Bethany area, Koreans near the Beaverton Transit area and so on.

As for Honolulu, Chinatown & immediate surroundings are still predominately Chinese although many Vietnamese business are located in the area near River Street (Western end of Chinatown). Most Koreans live in the Kaheka-Sheridan-Keeaumoku (aka Koreamoku) area of the city although there also many that live in the Salt Lake area near the airport too. The original Koreatown used to be in the Wahiawa (surburb) area but there are virtually no signs of it now. Filipinos have a very large presence in the Kalihi-Kapalama area (Honolulu city limits) & Waipahu (suburb). The Japanese are still largely in the city but there are many in Pearl City, Mililani & Kaneohe (suburbs). The majority of other Asians ethnic groups are still in the city. Honolulu's history of immigration is quite different from other locations because most of the first immigrants were brought over to work in the plantations so they naturally settled in the suburbs near work.

The newer Asian immigrants (& later generations of the older groups) are alot more well-off (more educated, wealthier, etc) than those that came over during the first few waves so moving to the suburbs has probably been more attractive than moving to some -(Asian)town. Also, those that work in the high-tech, food processing or manufacturing industries have moved there because that's where most of those jobs are located. However, I think that settlement patterns might be a bit more complex when you factor in those that have been resettled as refugees like the Burmese, Bhutanese, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Laotians, etc.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

Which conflicts . . . relating to the rail viaduct? Other than that I can't think of any.

I don't think Philadelphia's Chinatown growth (not very strong, IMO) in Philly has caused conflict with neighbors because basically it has no human neighbors other than a few relative newcomers in the loft district to the NW. Essentially Chinatown is surrounded by commercial / government uses to the W,S, and E, and semi-derelict industrial areas to the N.

If anything, development in these surrounding areas is encroaching on "Chinatown North", which is a slight misnomer in that the Chinatown powers that be haven't really done much to develop the area over the last many decades. It's still a anti-pedestrian wasteland up there.

The Asian area along Washington Ave has experienced moderate growth.

I think the Asian area in Upper Darby is shrinking, but I'm not sure. I think the Asian population in East Oak Lane and the Lower Northeast and Oxford Circle is growing a bit.

I think the wealthy suburban Asian population in Lansdale / Montgomeryville is growing alot, but it is heavily mixed in with non-Asian populations.

That's exactly why I said what I did. Chinatown can grow in one of three major directions (east, northeast, north); of these, two (east and northeast) are relatively empty and not likely to cause major conflicts. Instead it grows north. In other words, it's growing in such a way as to cause maximum conflicts with its neighbors.

BTW...You're right about suburban Asian populations growing, but they're not growing at the expense of downtown Chinatown. Also it's not "Asians" as a bloc: the Korean populations favor the northerly direction (Olney, Lansdale); the Chinese are most in force in the Northeast; and the Washington Avenue cluster is Vietnamese. (We have no substantial Japanese population.)

Only Chinatown and Upper Darby are true mélanges. Chinatown because it's traditionally the East Asian gateway to the urban area; Upper Darby because it's a tossup between Koreans and Vietnamese. The H-Mart there is pretty sweet, btw.

Interestingly enough, the only Asian-majority municipality east of California is in the Philadelphia area: Millbourne. The bulk of its citizens are, however, of South Asian extract.

[Tony]

Originally Posted by M II A II R II K

And plus they don't take away from the existing Chinatown, which also isn't getting smaller.

Nope, don't agree at all. I remember Spadina-Dundas Chinatown from the 80's thru to present day. It has definitely been slowly shrinking in on itself and the turnover is pretty high. Chinatown Centre is also in pretty rough shape with a lot of vacancy. It makes me depressed just thinking about it because I remember when it first opened and was hugely popular.

Also without a doubt, much like many of their American counterparts, this Chinatown is becoming more and more Viet.

[Tony]

Originally Posted by tdawg

that's a Chinatown? I see one Japanese restaurant and a ton of signs in English.

Not to be rude like the other reply you got.. an explanation to the photo posted was to illustrate suburban KOREATOWN. Which is centered along Yonge Street in an inner suburb of Toronto (but is still a part of the city proper).

Although there is density and even a subway line, I still think a lot of the people there still seem to find a way to drive to their destination. I hate this area...

[M II A II R II K]

Maybe the Toronto Chinatown would have fared better if it had a subway station at Dundas, assuming of course it didn't cause it to get gentrified instead.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by M II A II R II K

Maybe the Toronto Chinatown would have fared better if it had a subway station at Dundas, assuming of course it didn't cause it to get gentrified instead.

...What?

[mongoXZ]

My city's Chinatown has more Chinese than your Chinatown!

[fflint]

In addition to the new Chinatown 'burbs, the Bay Area has booming secondary urban Chinatowns, in SF's Richmond District and in downtown Oakland. San Francisco's downtown Chinatown grows a little bit every year, but we're talking maybe ten blocks a decade.

[memph]

If you could generalize what's happening in the Toronto area, I would describe it like this (other Toronto posters let me know if you disagree):

Wealthier Asians are totally dominating new subdivisions, especially around Brampton, Markham, Richmond Hill and Mississauga. Lower income Asians (and blacks and latinos) are replacing whites in older inner suburban high rises, so that these are now mostly Asian.


Some older single family suburban neighbourhoods also have very high proportions of non-whites (mostly Asians), often dominated by a single Asian ethnicity. This seems to be especially true in Miliken which is something like 70% Chinese and 10% white, and to a lesser degree Malvern (Tamil) and Malton/Rexdale (Punjabi). My impression is that these areas were built before non-European really took off (correct me if I'm wrong), so this suggests the original residents would have been mostly white. This means they would have been displaced by a single immigrant group, so could there have been white flight occuring? By white flight I don't necessarily mean from racism or fear of crime, just a feeling of being allienated among so many immigrants.

[Urbanguy]

I just looked at the stats for Honolulu Census Designated Place (CDP) versus the metro area & found that the Asian alone (not mixed) population is evenly split between the city & burbs. According to the Census 2010 -- 50.01% of Asians alone live in the CDP. It's mainly the other races (Pacific Islander @ 67%, Hispanic/Latino @ 74%, Whites @ 63%, Native Americans @ 67%, Blacks @ 63% & Mixed Races @ 70%) that live predominately in the burbs.

However, when you look closer at the Asian alone population by ethnicty/nationality -- 77.5% of Chinese alone, 53.7% of Japanese alone, 73% of Korean alone, 77.8% of Vietnamese alone & 66.3% of East Indian alone live in the CDP. It's the 68% of Filipinos & 55% of all other Asians living in the burbs that even everything out numerically.

I'll look into Portland City versus the metro area when I have more time.

[J. Will]

You don't need lots of Asians living in an area to have any kind of Chinatown or other Asiantown. At the same time, the presence of a large number of Chinese residents doesn't make an area a "Chinatown". You need lots of Asian stores, restaurants, and other businesses to make an area a "Chinatown". Suburban Toronto and Vancouver have large residential areas/sudivisions of over 50% Chinese population. This doesn't make them "Chinatowns". It's Asian commerce that makes an area a "Chinatown".